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Big Shrimpin'

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  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    Where do those numbers come from?

    Every 5 years the USFWS puts out a report and I also used the ASA's economic impact of sportfisher report I linked to them previously
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
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  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    First it was 113,000,000. Then it was 40,000,000. Now its 30,000,000.........BUT HOW MANY ARE SALTWATER ANGLERS?

    Simple questions:

    1) How many Licensed Recreational SALTWATER anglers are there in the State of Florida?

    2) How many of those Licensed Recreational SALTWATER anglers fish in FEDERAL WATERS for Grouper and Snapper?

    3) What is your source for this information?

    A lot fewer than NMFS gives us credit for. There are less than 1 million licensed anglers and about 6 million trips annually into the EEZ.

    So since we are taking Florida grouper and snapper....how is it again you are feeding 200 million people?



    Not all anglers are licensed in the state of Florida and many who take charter trips TO FEDERAL WATERS are not licensed either.
    The best estimate is 2.7 miliion saltwater anglers...plus 800,000 non resident anglers

    I sourced the information in the link provided, so please fee free to read the volumes of data out there

    So last year commercial fishers in Florida landed 4 million pounds out of 5.02 Billion pounds of fish consumed in the US each year of which 780 million is US caught, so about .5% (that is less than 1%) of all commerically caught fish consumed each year that is what you did for the AMerican consumer.

    As for Red Snapper you provided 1.4 million pounds so about .2%. With total revenues of about $15 million.

    NMFS estimates that 4.669 million people went saltwater fishing in Florida in 2010 and in 2010 there were 1.7 million trips into the EEZ. At approximately $200 per trip that is $340,000,000 of revenue generated in Florida just for trips into Federal Waters (trust me when I say $200 is way conservative)

    So again best economic and sustainable use of the resource goes to the recs.
    Providing food for the masses, not so much for you and it is probablys safe to say that recreational anglers provided more food for the table in 2010 that stayed local than you did.

    And my final word on the subject. If NMFS finds a fishery in such dire need that extraordinary measures must be taken, then first all commercial use of the species should end; no ifs ands or buts about it.

    please feel free to go to
    http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov
    http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov

    And query the data just as I have

    Based on NMFS's numbers these are the number of Saltwater anglers 16,052,870.00 with 4,014,489 trips taken into federal waters.
    Please tell us how many people eat grouper and red snapper caught in the US.
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
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  • Paul BarnardPaul Barnard Posts: 136 Officer
    Every 5 years the USFWS puts out a report and I also used the ASA's economic impact of sportfisher report I linked to them previously

    I have held licenses in MS and LA for years and have never been surveyed to see if I fish in federal waters, what I fish for and how many trips I take. I don't know anyone that has. Any estimates NOAA makes as to how many people participate in the various recreational fisheries and the breadth of their effort is simply BS. The time has come, just as it is done for HMS, to permit and track all recreational fishing activity. Without that basis, all of our "science" is nothing short of junk. The money generated from sales can be reinvested in the recreational fishery. Is there really anyone who would be against this?
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    I have held licenses in MS and LA for years and have never been surveyed to see if I fish in federal waters, what I fish for and how many trips I take. I don't know anyone that has. Any estimates NOAA makes as to how many people participate in the various recreational fisheries and the breadth of their effort is simply BS. The time has come, just as it is done for HMS, to permit and track all recreational fishing activity. Without that basis, all of our "science" is nothing short of junk. The money generated from sales can be reinvested in the recreational fishery. Is there really anyone who would be against this?

    Paul,
    Yes - the Gulf Council is against that. I presented the OFS Permit Plan to all members of Council + Crabtree and others at the Sector Separation Meeting last year and they simply ignored it. The OFS Permit Plan does exactly as you suggest - it is patterned after the existing HMS Permit, and would provide almost real-time data regarding how many fishermen are fishing offshore, from what ports, and how many fish they are catching. It would encompass the entire recreational fishing sector, including private recs, charter and head boats, but the feds seem to prefer NOT to know the accurate data concerning private recs. The iSnapper project is geared only for CFH and headboats and they are not suggesting any pilot programs for the private recs - it seems that they do not trust us.

    Unless we have accurate assessments, even if we did have the OFS Permit Plan, they would just use it against us.

    If you read the statement today from Eric Schwab's promotion announcement today; "...we face unprecedented fiscal pressures both within and outside of the government. If we are to continue to make progress, we must work in greater partnership with local governments, partner agencies and organizations, and stakeholders to better align strategies and resources. And, given the current fiscal climate, we must seek innovative approaches, processes, technologies and organizational models to most efficiently and cost-effectively pursue our objectives. I look forward to working with David Kennedy and the National Ocean Service team, Craig McLean and the Oceanic and Atmospheric Research team, and with many other colleagues across NOAA to address these important issues."

    I think the logical solution is for the government to lease the quota for commercial IFQs to the commercial fishermen and use those funds for ANNUAL assessments due to NOAA's acknowledgement of lack of funding - they are leaving money on the table by simply gifting the IFQs to select few individuals/corporations.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
  • kingmackattackkingmackattack Posts: 1 Greenhorn
    [
    Unfortunately, aquacultured shrimp don't taste very good. I've tried them several times from several different farms, even from places in central Alabama that had actual subterranean saltwater sources feeding the ponds where the shrimp were being raised. I had high hopes for farm raised shrimp because I had seen and was bothered by the amount of by-catch being taken from the Gulf and saw the need for an alternate source of shrimp.
    Also, another channel is coming out with their own version of "Big Shrimpin'". It's called 'Ragin' Cajun's" and it is also about commercial shrimping. I believe it's going to be on the Biography channel or Discovery. Not sure, but have seen the commercials for it.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,742 AG
    I have held licenses in MS and LA for years and have never been surveyed to see if I fish in federal waters, what I fish for and how many trips I take. I don't know anyone that has. Any estimates NOAA makes as to how many people participate in the various recreational fisheries and the breadth of their effort is simply BS. The time has come, just as it is done for HMS, to permit and track all recreational fishing activity. Without that basis, all of our "science" is nothing short of junk. The money generated from sales can be reinvested in the recreational fishery. Is there really anyone who would be against this?
    Yes! Best post on the entire thread.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • FrisbeeFrisbee Posts: 2,314 Captain
    I have bought 10 or 11 snook stamps in the last 25 years, and I have never kept a snook, and only landed a handful. So what does the "Survey" think when I repeatedly bought saltwater licenses year after year with snook and lobster stamls...and I've only seen wild lobs in sanxtuary areas in the keys.
  • TypicleseTypiclese Posts: 393 Deckhand
    Mango Man wrote: »
    Typiclese, he sees quite well. He's one of the few that will benefit from this charade.

    Copy that MM. After awhile it becomes frustrating, I just wanted to hear how catch shares are benefiting rec fisherman. Curious to hear what he had to say, but I guess that will never happen.
  • TypicleseTypiclese Posts: 393 Deckhand
    :applause
    best post on the thread.
    Do you mind if I use some of it from time to time?

    Nope not at all. You can use whatever you like, I can even send you the references I used for this....so much info out there it all begins to overlap after awhile...hard to keep it all straight sometimes....of course I borrowed from you on the last statement....you've always been spot on in this forum Mack Snatcher :thumbsup :thumbsup
  • Paul BarnardPaul Barnard Posts: 136 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Paul,
    Yes - the Gulf Council is against that. I presented the OFS Permit Plan to all members of Council + Crabtree and others at the Sector Separation Meeting last year and they simply ignored it. The OFS Permit Plan does exactly as you suggest - it is patterned after the existing HMS Permit, and would provide almost real-time data regarding how many fishermen are fishing offshore, from what ports, and how many fish they are catching. It would encompass the entire recreational fishing sector, including private recs, charter and head boats, but the feds seem to prefer NOT to know the accurate data concerning private recs. The iSnapper project is geared only for CFH and headboats and they are not suggesting any pilot programs for the private recs - it seems that they do not trust us.

    Unless we have accurate assessments, even if we did have the OFS Permit Plan, they would just use it against us.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

    Tom, thanks for the response. I am very interested in discussing this in greater detail so I started a dedicated thread. I hope you'll drop in and discuss it with me.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Tom, thanks for the response. I am very interested in discussing this in greater detail so I started a dedicated thread. I hope you'll drop in and discuss it with me.

    Hi Paul,
    Here is the plan; http://rt-nav.com/OFS_Permit_110510.doc

    Let me know what you think.

    Tom
  • Paul BarnardPaul Barnard Posts: 136 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Hi Paul,
    Here is the plan; http://rt-nav.com/OFS_Permit_110510.doc

    Let me know what you think.

    Tom

    I read that Tom, and I agree with it in principle. I don't like the idea of having to punch a bunch of numbers into my old school phone as I am heading back to the dock. There's no way I could get through it without fat fingering something. I'd rather have the luxury of time and review the internet affords.

    Is there even a voluntary reporting mechanism in place? If I was aware of a voluntary reporting system, I'd be happy to report my activity.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Paul,
    Here is an iPad app being developed which is very good - right now they want to serve as an electronic logbook for the CFH industry but I would like to see it included in the private recs as well. Unfortunately, it looks as though this app will be a major impetus for allowing the CFH "Days At Sea" program, which is the foot in the door for Catch Shares as DAS requires Sector Separation.

    http://www.harteresearchinstitute.org/isnapper
  • Paul BarnardPaul Barnard Posts: 136 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Paul,
    Here is an iPad app being developed which is very good - right now they want to serve as an electronic logbook for the CFH industry but I would like to see it included in the private recs as well. Unfortunately, it looks as though this app will be a major impetus for allowing the CFH "Days At Sea" program, which is the foot in the door for Catch Shares as DAS requires Sector Separation.

    http://www.harteresearchinstitute.org/isnapper


    I can only see one problem with that. Here is a pic of my phone. Casio-GzOne-Rock.jpg
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    iSnapper is an iPad app, but there are costs associated with an iPad that some people may not want to pay.

    Therefore, as shown by every teenager in the country daily, texting is an accepted norm of communicating - in the case of the OFS Permit Plan, communicating with the government to provide almost realtime, ACCOUNTABLE, data.

    The mantra is that the private recs are UNACCOUNTABLE and are using that to their advantage to justify Catch Shares / Sector Separation. I think that if we provide an easy way to provide accountability for ALL recreational fishermen, whether they are on a private boat, charter, or head boat, AND that data in turn makes the federal fisheries managers ACCOUNTABLE at the same time, that the fishermen would buy into it.

    You need to get a bigger phone if your fingers are too fat to text on that one - phones are cheap.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
  • Paul BarnardPaul Barnard Posts: 136 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    iSnapper is an iPad app, but there are costs associated with an iPad that some people may not want to pay.

    Therefore, as shown by every teenager in the country daily, texting is an accepted norm of communicating - in the case of the OFS Permit Plan, communicating with the government to provide almost realtime, ACCOUNTABLE, data.

    The mantra is that the private recs are UNACCOUNTABLE and are using that to their advantage to justify Catch Shares / Sector Separation. I think that if we provide an easy way to provide accountability for ALL recreational fishermen, whether they are on a private boat, charter, or head boat, AND that data in turn makes the federal fisheries managers ACCOUNTABLE at the same time, that the fishermen would buy into it.

    You need to get a bigger phone if your fingers are too fat to text on that one - phones are cheap.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

    People make fun of me for being a technodork Tom. I like my phone because it is shockproof and waterproof. Do they make an IPhone with those features? One day I will have to embrace such modern technology.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    My iPhone stays dry and safe in my shirt pocket underneath my parka.

    Here's a shot of an iPad installed as a flush-mount monitor on a center console - the gasket around the face waterproofs it.

    The shots show the boat's position relative to Hilton's dynamic imageries such as chlorophyll, currents, altimetry, salinity, or in this case, sea surface temperatures in addition to our custom contour charts.

    It's touch-screen technology so you can click on the screen on a point of interest such as a temp break or color change and it will give you a route with distance/bearing info to take you right to it...

    I could see where an app such as the iSnapper would be pretty handy in this kind of scenario. It also runs their music system and videos while on the water, plus a ton of other applications that I haven't even thought of yet.

    Tom
  • People make fun of me for being a technodork Tom. I like my phone because it is shockproof and waterproof. Do they make an IPhone with those features? One day I will have to embrace such modern technology.

    I believe Android makes a waterproof / shockproof smartphone now, but when I checked a few month's ago
    it was only avalible with Verision, not AT&T, which I have and intend to stay with. I use a Rugby because of the
    durability myself. I've also been drenched even wearing foul weather gear!

    When they make a shock proof . water proof tablet, with sattelite connection options.......That I can afford,
    then I would certainly consider that.

    It seems that same day reporting at home on the computer should be as real-time as NOAA can handle (more
    actually), though an app for the iPhone for those wishing to use it should also be avalible. In the end, it really
    does not matter what data is provided if the outcome is predetermined by policy. Any good data brought to
    the NMFS would have to include fishery independant as well as industry dependant reps to ensure the use of
    such data was in the spirit of sincere conservation and sound management.
  • the flats guythe flats guy Posts: 313 Deckhand
    I really like the show. I just wish that they could find use of their by catch. maybe bait for some rod and reels in the water. idk just use it for something, dont throw it away.
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    I really like the show. I just wish that they could find use of their by catch. maybe bait for some rod and reels in the water. idk just use it for something, dont throw it away.

    Part of our problem is singularity of permits.
    They have shrimp permits and cannot keep the by catch, whcih could be used to make chum, bait, cat food or natural fertilizers.....So they shovel it back, I guess the tuna, sharks and porpoises like it though.

    My problem is mixed in all that brown gold....are red diamonds....the same red snapper we are told we can't catch, they are destorying by the hundreds of pounds with each haul of the net.

    From a conservation stand point, if they can't catch their target, without killing other protected species, it is time to stop
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
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  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    It's a rights issue. The shrimpers have a right to go catch shrimp. The commercials have a right to catch fish commercially. The recreational fishermen have a right to go catch fish.

    In the past, there were too many shrimpers. Economic and natural events have combined to reduce their numbers drastically. As a result, many of you have stated that the red snapper have made a comeback due to this. OK. Apparently the current amount of effort by the shrimping industry is not enough to really harm to the fishery, so cap that effort so that it never again threatens the fishery. Fact is that the juveniles caught in these nets have an extremely high NATURAL mortality rate and whether or not they are caught in a net, they are destined to die anyway. I believe that we could mitigate the loss of these juveniles by providing low-relief habitat on a grand scale across the Gulf to foster the survival of these small fish. This habitat would create de facto-no trawl zones as the shrimpers would get their nets snagged.

    In addition, there are laws that mandate that the resource is harvested to its maximum potential or else foreign fleets would be able to come in and start shrimping, I believe.

    In any case, I believe there is a happy medium where all user groups can co-exist, and the fisheries thrive.
  • In Common Sense management that may be true, but with what we have now, its a double standard. Any Recreational
    fishery with a dead discard rate of bycatch like the shrimping industry is allowed would be shut down immediatly. In the
    Southeast Atlantic, they really wanted to close ALL bottom fishing outside 98' to eliminate the possibility of accidently
    catching a Red Snapper, because they claimed they were so impeiriled that recovery would not be possible any other way!
    Of coarse, a day after a Federal Lawsuit was filed showing NOAA's failure to address legal issues in the matter, and all of
    a sudden the data showed a total bottom closure was not needed.

    The point is, yes the shrimping industry has come a long way, but compared to the hoops and hurdles recreational anglers
    have faced over Red Snapper, any amount of loss must be considered carefully to ensure a fair playing feild across the different
    sectors. Although the juvunelle ARS mortality may be naturally high due to predation, that still allows a healthy and vibrant
    fishery to exist, but 100% mortality is the result of what gets shoveled overboard. Deepwater artifical reefs sound like a good
    option for such fish, as well as expanding the shallower artifical reef system, not only in the gulf, but around the east side of Florida
    as well. Just as MS touches on Acheiving Maximum yeild, I believe it also deals with Socio-economic concerns between states and
    sectors, so as to create an unfair advantage to one group, over another. But then again, thats exactly what Catch Shares do!
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