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Suggestions Wanted On How to Make the Conservation Forum More Active

FS BlairFS Blair Krueger Creek, FLPosts: 1,857 Admin
Over the years the Florida Sportsman Forum community has found other ways of connecting.  Social media has grown.  People have moved on to other things...or simply moved on, we are all getting older.  But, more today than ever there needs to be a place where Sportsman can meet to discuss problems anglers, divers and hunters are facing.  

I've began writing a column in the magazine called "Call To Action" where each month I look to give you, our reader, something specific they can do to help make a difference.

This is the column from the December/January issue of Florida Sportsman

http://www.floridasportsman.com/2020/11/04/cta-nov-2020-its-time-to-bite/

I'm speaking specifically to our readers to help encourage the fishery advocacy groups to become more engaged in water quality issues around the state. 

In my Feb column I'll be asking you to consider becoming an advisory panel member for one of Florida's Fishery Advisory Panels.

Ideally we're discussing ideas in here that I can then bring to the readers of the magazine and the other way around.  

But, we need to have more discussion here.  

So, two questions.  One, how do we get more people interested in helping restore our fisheries?  And secondly, how do we get more people interested in participating in the Conservation Forum?

Thanks in advance,

Blair Wickstrom
Florida Sportsman-Publisher

Replies

  • Sorry Blair but I got tired of beating my head against the wall a number of years back.
    Pretty sure it was the catch shares thing that finally did me in.
    Up till then I was delusional enough to think that my/our input mattered in fisheries management.
    Good Luck
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • FS BlairFS Blair Krueger Creek, FLPosts: 1,857 Admin
    Sorry Blair but I got tired of beating my head against the wall a number of years back.
    Pretty sure it was the catch shares thing that finally did me in.
    Up till then I was delusional enough to think that my/our input mattered in fisheries management.
    Good Luck
    I understand.  But, we can't give up.  I think we allowed a few too many vocal minorities to run potentially helpful members away.  I'd like to see if we can strike up the band again.  Like the rest of the Forum, it might be a slimmed down version, but it can be helpful.

    As a result of my CTA column in the Dec/Jan issue I got a phone call this morning from a county commissioner who said she was going to make fixing the boat ramp mentioned in the column a priority.  It doesn't mean we did anything yet, the boat ramp still sits is disrepair, but we're closer to a useable ramp today because one of our readers contacted the commission about taking care of this problem.

    We can't throw up our hands...not yet....
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    Florida Outdoor interests no longer correctly referred to as a “Constituency “.
    Severed from Conservation Role, both very willingly and unwillingly, at times completely unaware.
    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
  • FS BlairFS Blair Krueger Creek, FLPosts: 1,857 Admin
    If you could do one thing to improve fishing in Florida, what would it be?
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    edited December 2020 #6
    If we could do one thing to preserve and protect current “ Fishing Experience In Florida” what would ‘ it’ be???
    Did we miss something???.... fishing experience today compared to past certain ( studied) dates, Satisfaction not only regards catch, take but also overall experience, visual scenery management, access to fishing grounds/ boat  launch, foot access.....
    etc
    Endless Loop
    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    Florida Sportsmen That Support Rodman Dam Removed, Restoration.....

    Aw Skip it, few Sportsman ( and Women) Powerhouses would dabble with this now burnt out Forum format.
    Not now, and even way back a bit, or more.
    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,974 AG
    lol
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Ron38SpecialRon38Special S FloridaPosts: 120 Deckhand
    So I have spent over 20 years on HMS advisory and ICCAT Advisory. Banged my head against the wall so many times, it doesn't hurt anymore. Do I think I did anything? Yes, I do, but just can't do it anymore, too much time, too much head banging, and very slow results.
    So what do I think I accomplished? Well for my 20 years, you have not seen pelagic longlines in the straits. If I had just a small piece of accomplishing that, I will take it!
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,974 AG
    So I have spent over 20 years on HMS advisory and ICCAT Advisory. Banged my head against the wall so many times, it doesn't hurt anymore. Do I think I did anything? Yes, I do, but just can't do it anymore, too much time, too much head banging, and very slow results.
    So what do I think I accomplished? Well for my 20 years, you have not seen pelagic longlines in the straits. If I had just a small piece of accomplishing that, I will take it!
    we don't agree on a lot of things but at least you understand the root of the problems..  Not being condesending.

    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • MissedMissed O-townPosts: 658 Officer
    The lack of enthusiasm is that we've all done stuff and nothing happens - the agencies do what they are gonna do anyway.  Most changes I've seen over the past 25 years have not been to our benefit - it is all more restrictions and regulation - with no measurable increase or betterment. 
  • L8RBRAL8RBRA Posts: 792 Officer
    If you post it they will come.
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    I have a personal letter from Senator Lawton Chiles that would have given any Florida Sportsman Conservationist great optimism.
    In fact, the optimism would eventually lead to a profound sense of Futility.
    A Forum will not reverse time and effect.

    Why not generate a new thread: 
    Restore Ocklawaha/ pull the plug on the dam.
    I recall Carl Wickstrohm’s disagreements with the Florida Wildlife Federation, Manley Fuller.
    A hint to future debilitating features.
    So, here we are. Or aren’t.
    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,974 AG
    Lawton Chiles was a man with a very good grasp on what worked for Florida.. 
    I have/had a great deal of respect for him and Buddy Mckay too.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 2,799 Captain
    FS Blair said:
    If you could do one thing to improve fishing in Florida, what would it be?
    The obvious answer is to improve water quality state wide.  In the meantime, any overly pressured species gets gamefish designation.

    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,974 AG
    and game fish does what?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    edited December 2020 #17
    Huntmaster, premature Bear Hunt as “ Referendum on Hunting” gained way too much traction here.
    FWC interaction with the forum, so rare but popped up then, was sadly, for this forum and Commission persons, decisive .
    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    edited December 2020 #18
    Blair-
    Finally..... I note your reference to 
    “ Fishing”.

    Likely narrow focus.

    For Fish and all else,something much different, and probably not yet grasped is required.
    Onward!
    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
  • FS BlairFS Blair Krueger Creek, FLPosts: 1,857 Admin
    spangler said:
    FS Blair said:
    If you could do one thing to improve fishing in Florida, what would it be?
    The obvious answer is to improve water quality state wide.  In the meantime, any overly pressured species gets gamefish designation.

    Agree with you 100% regarding water quality, not much else matters on the inshore front if you've got unfishable water.  I also agree with you on gamefish for trout, cobia and a few other species where it makes sense.  Even though most of the trout and cobia are rec caught fish, there's no economic reason to keep them open commercially when the remaining fish we do have are so much more valuable to the state as part of the recreational fishery.
  • blueoceancarterblueoceancarter Posts: 4 Greenhorn
    Blair;

    I think that the hardest part of any restoration initiative is keeping folks engaged so I applaud you for your efforts. For what it is worth I believe there are a lot of serious issues plaguing Florida but there are also some great restoration initiatives moving forward as well. 
    •  But, more today than ever there needs to be a place where Sportsman can meet to discuss problems anglers, divers and hunters are facing.  

    I agree with you that the issues need to be discussed and debated but I see some challenges for open conversation the way it is presented now.

    1. When issues are being discussed most are not researching the technical reports and subsequently debating alternative "truths". I believe it would help if prior to clamoring over who is "right" and who is "wrong" the literature, technical reports, and other data need to be agreed upon. I am not saying that all of the technical literature is the gospel, as it is certainly not, but it does give common ground to start from. 

    2. I believe that technical experts, and others who have extensive experience with Florida's issues, do not respond in forum format because often the problem is nuanced. Also, often there is also no possible correct answer. Why would they bother explaining their point of view to an audience that, in many cases, has never taken a deep dive into all of the issues. The forum format is difficult to outline the total pros and cons of a project. I have many colleagues that kicked around taking the issues to a podcast format to take a deep dive into the literature and then discussing both sides of the literature. I believe that when the facets of the issue are presented then it makes a lot of sense to further discuss in other formats. I have seen this model repeated successfully when discussing movie documentaries. It may facilitate better conversation. Additionally, there is not one desired outcome that everyone agrees on. 

    • If you could do one thing to improve fishing in Florida, what would it be?
    Well, that depends on what type of fishing...

    Freshwater... WMDS manages water storage and water quality while FWC manages habitat. I know personally that when our local WMD raised lake levels, for water storage, SAV abundance was reduced. ALso, FWC would need much more funding to do so but the community needs to mechanically remove hydrilla as a primary action instead of spraying during certain times of year. If certain portions of lakes were mechanically controlled there would be a LOT more plants to hold ducks.

    Estuarine... FWC has a freshwater restoration fund called ARIES and a saltwater fund MARIES. Aries gets the lion's share of the funding and maries is mostly competitive grant-funded. I think that estuaries are often just as impacted by anthropogenic sources as lakes. Resources should go back into them when they are impacted. It would possibly stop a lot of problems from becoming worse. 

    Bottom... A hybrid annual IFQ for recreational anglers for "Weekend Warrior" anglers and much more artificial reef creation.

    Bluewater... Fads, Fads, and more Fads in the Gulf. In the Atlantic, the long line ban is top-notch.

    I read Blair's comments while in line for a haircut and it got me thinking.
  • FS BlairFS Blair Krueger Creek, FLPosts: 1,857 Admin
    Blair;

    I think that the hardest part of any restoration initiative is keeping folks engaged so I applaud you for your efforts. For what it is worth I believe there are a lot of serious issues plaguing Florida but there are also some great restoration initiatives moving forward as well. 
    •  But, more today than ever there needs to be a place where Sportsman can meet to discuss problems anglers, divers and hunters are facing.  

    I agree with you that the issues need to be discussed and debated but I see some challenges for open conversation the way it is presented now.

    1. When issues are being discussed most are not researching the technical reports and subsequently debating alternative "truths". I believe it would help if prior to clamoring over who is "right" and who is "wrong" the literature, technical reports, and other data need to be agreed upon. I am not saying that all of the technical literature is the gospel, as it is certainly not, but it does give common ground to start from. 

    2. I believe that technical experts, and others who have extensive experience with Florida's issues, do not respond in forum format because often the problem is nuanced. Also, often there is also no possible correct answer. Why would they bother explaining their point of view to an audience that, in many cases, has never taken a deep dive into all of the issues. The forum format is difficult to outline the total pros and cons of a project. I have many colleagues that kicked around taking the issues to a podcast format to take a deep dive into the literature and then discussing both sides of the literature. I believe that when the facets of the issue are presented then it makes a lot of sense to further discuss in other formats. I have seen this model repeated successfully when discussing movie documentaries. It may facilitate better conversation. Additionally, there is not one desired outcome that everyone agrees on. 

    • If you could do one thing to improve fishing in Florida, what would it be?
    Well, that depends on what type of fishing...

    Freshwater... WMDS manages water storage and water quality while FWC manages habitat. I know personally that when our local WMD raised lake levels, for water storage, SAV abundance was reduced. ALso, FWC would need much more funding to do so but the community needs to mechanically remove hydrilla as a primary action instead of spraying during certain times of year. If certain portions of lakes were mechanically controlled there would be a LOT more plants to hold ducks.

    Estuarine... FWC has a freshwater restoration fund called ARIES and a saltwater fund MARIES. Aries gets the lion's share of the funding and maries is mostly competitive grant-funded. I think that estuaries are often just as impacted by anthropogenic sources as lakes. Resources should go back into them when they are impacted. It would possibly stop a lot of problems from becoming worse. 

    Bottom... A hybrid annual IFQ for recreational anglers for "Weekend Warrior" anglers and much more artificial reef creation.

    Bluewater... Fads, Fads, and more Fads in the Gulf. In the Atlantic, the long line ban is top-notch.

    I read Blair's comments while in line for a haircut and it got me thinking.
    Good comments and suggestions.  Being what Florida Sportsman has meant historically to fishery management, and given the numbers we've had over the years participating in the FS Forum community, you'd think we could muster three dozen active members who would like to discuss conservation oriented issues facing the Florida Sportsman. 

    I realize time has changed how people participate in public commentary, Facebook and Twitter have changed the world.  But, our Forum was alive and kicking before either of these platforms existed.   

    But, the Forum is still best for detailed discussions, and organizing and referring back to those discussions.  

    So...with that said, hopefully we can get a few dozen people to begin participating the Conservation section again.  

    The state, and the critters, need it.
  • Phins_360Phins_360 FLPosts: 26 Deckhand
    So I have spent over 20 years on HMS advisory and ICCAT Advisory. Banged my head against the wall so many times, it doesn't hurt anymore. Do I think I did anything? Yes, I do, but just can't do it anymore, too much time, too much head banging, and very slow results.
    So what do I think I accomplished? Well for my 20 years, you have not seen pelagic longlines in the straits. If I had just a small piece of accomplishing that, I will take it!

    Thanks Ron.

    Have always appreciated your efforts
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    edited December 2021 #23
    I recently met with very wealthy and capable conservationist people...... we focused on Everglades Foundation as a problem, Arthur Marshall Plan/ Everglades Restoration/ Sheet Flow, Art’s papers on why his Plan would not happen, Sugar Cane Lands maneuver for Development, Lake O dike “ improvement “, Collier county and Dade county aggressive growth initiatives,how twenty or so Enviro organizations are at play, or Asleep ( Everglades Half Track and Everglades Conservation Club, Everglades Coordinating Committee ,Jack Moeller , Barbara Jean Powell , Johnny Jones et al .... Florida and National Wildlife Federation, Friends of Everglades, Nathaniel Reid’s special connection that will not produce, Thousand Friends Of Florida....... who could replace them? was as an interesting side discussion)
    Florida Sportsman Forum never came up. 

    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,974 AG
    and never will.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Phins_360Phins_360 FLPosts: 26 Deckhand
    I'll start by saying I was here posting back in 2008 time frame, here before we lost most of the site with the server crash or whatever it was back then

    Some epic battles with Anumber_zero and Tom Hilton engaged with the rest of us.

    I stopped as a reflection of real world happenings on the fisheries front.  Screaming at the sky on here didn't help, about as much as it helped going to the Gulf Council meetings.  Only to be locked out, or summarily dissed by crabtree.  He's not elected, but appointed.   Yet somehow keeps on.  I lost total faith in our elected representatives for failure to remove him from his position.

    After the last fiasco of closures back in 2011 I pretty much resolved myself that 1) Commercial interests always trump recreational because that is where the skids get greased and 2) We as rec's don't have the balls to get nasty and force some change.  We are way too nice.  Meanwhile crabtree and the NMFS continue to kick us between the legs.  Closing species for us, yet keeping them open for commericials.


    Mackeral Snatcher (not sure if he still posts here or not) had a great quote in is sig block:

    "if its endangered it should be closed for everyone" or something of the sort.

    I've been in this sate long enough to see the HWY 40 bridge over nowhere built.  I've seen what over development has done to the IR and Mosquito Lagoon. 

    Keys reefs, and the affects Miami-Dade development has had on them.

    We are never going to halt development.  So from where I sit it's a downhill race.  We are losing more than we are gaining on most ecological fronts.

    My goals along the way were 3 simple matters:

    First step is to unscrew the Everglades and the confluences of water sources that used to feed it and keep it healthy and moving.

    Second step is any NMFS directorship must be elected by the people.

    Third; if it's "endangered" it's closed for everyone.

    Those have been the 3 prongs of this I've always focused on, but that is long gone hopium as is posting here on ConFron.


  • Mackeral SnatcherMackeral Snatcher Posts: 13,226 AG
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVER FISHED.
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,974 AG
    Gulf council is bound by law to follow the MS act, don't like it? lobby your reps to change it..

    pretty easy concept.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,974 AG
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVER FISHED.
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVER FISHED.
    BTW Jerry,once a management plan is implemented that species is no longer considered overfished or undergoing overfishing by the NMFS .

    until the next stock assessment anyways.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 2,090 Captain
    FloridaOD said:
    Florida Sportsmen That Support Rodman Dam Removed, Restoration.....

    Aw Skip it, few Sportsman ( and Women) Powerhouses would dabble with this now burnt out Forum format.
    Not now, and even way back a bit, or more.
    Your own assessment of who still posts on this forum and the fact that you’re among them provides a pretty humorous explanation of the reason for your frustration.

    Carry on.
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    FloridaOD said:
    Florida Sportsmen That Support Rodman Dam Removed, Restoration.....

    Aw Skip it, few Sportsman ( and Women) Powerhouses would dabble with this now burnt out Forum format.
    Not now, and even way back a bit, or more.
    Your own assessment of who still posts on this forum and the fact that you’re among them provides a pretty humorous explanation of the reason for your frustration.

    Carry on.
    Exactly!! 
    Bravo
    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
  • FloridaODFloridaOD Posts: 4,408 Captain
    edited November 8 #31

    No wonder Karl W. ignored my recent reach out to him on certain Everglades Restoration matters.
    After all, I was only a close friend of Art Marshall. 
    A Subtle Fade.... 
    Hunters are present yet relatively uncommon in Florida :wink
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