Home Fly Fishing

No. No. You can't scent your fly. Even if it makes you smile.

sunflowersunflower osprey, floridaPosts: 655 Officer
edited August 9 in Fly Fishing #1

Things were getting a little hot on the other thread, so I changed the zip code..

So, like most (fisher)men, I rarely listen to sense or change my opinions.
But ... following the "scented fly thread" caused me to change my opinion.
I have a friend who puts greenbacks or pinfish on a fly rod, and uses them to catch snook and tarpon.
He free-lines live bait on a fly rod.
He catches fish.
It makes him smile.

It's not my business, but it's not "fly fishing."

I realized it would aggravate me if he posted a picture of his caught fish on a fly forum.
I guess because on some level he didn't earn the right to call those fish "caught on fly."
It is sort of like if you purchased someone's gold medal.
I think on some level it is a deception to those fly fishermen/women who "really" caught a fish on fly.

Previously, I mentioned that I don't worry about using a "proper" class tippet.
For me, I thought that following the "rules" was an unnecessary distinction.

I realized I was wrong.
I shouldn't post pictures of fish caught using an "illegal" technique, on a forum where the standard was to follow the IGFA rules. Or if I did post them, I should specify that they were caught with illegal techniques.

I'm going to try to follow all the rules as much as I can now.
So I can post pictures of fish I caught, without having to feel I was tricking other fly anglers, or without having to specify that they were caught using illegal techniques.

N0, you can't scent a fly.
No, you can't use an illegal leader.
No, you can't use acrylic flies that are basically lures.

And ... no, you can't chum with kittens.




(yes, the colors in this photo are illegally enhanced!)

Mark

grace finds goodness in everything ...



Replies

  • BooBooBooBoo Vero Beach Fl and Ft. Lupton ColoradoPosts: 200 Deckhand
    I for one could care less if your bite tippet was a tow chain! 
  • sunflowersunflower osprey, floridaPosts: 655 Officer
    edited August 10 #3

    I think, technically, bite tippets can be tow chains.
    It's class tippets that have restrictions.
    The sporting reason behind them is that if the line breaks, it will break with only a foot or so hanging out of the fish's mouth, rather than the tarpon swimming away dragging the entire fly line if your running line breaks.
    The class tippet is supposed to be the weakest link in the system.
    Mark

    grace finds goodness in everything ...



  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 4,448 Captain
    For what it's worth I know quite a few fly rod addicts that chase tarpon - with the most outrageous leader setups since not one of their fish will ever be submitted for a record... The only time I'd insist on standard IGFA legal leaders would be if fishing a tournament - since a heavy leader would be cheating... 

    By the way I pretty much stick to nothing heavier than 20lb hard Mason for my tarpon leader tippet section... Not to comply with any standards - but simply to protect my fly line -and the rod I'm using... Much rather pop the tippet than a fly line (remember most fly lines are only 30lb test... ).
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • ClamfootClamfoot ChuluotaPosts: 56 Deckhand
    scent or no scent. 
    enhanced or not 

    That is a great pic!!!!
    The good Lord came to save liars and sinners, that’s why he started with 4 fishermen
  • tarpon41tarpon41 Posts: 283 Deckhand
    RL:  Just to add to your last post...most of the line companies if contacted will tell you both the grain weight and core strength. if not stated on the web. RIO on some of their saltwater lines state their 30' grain weight and core strength...see below that's what they state for their Tropical Tarpon...SA and Cortland previously did on their web but now just state grain weight; however, I did email contact, Cortland, to get the core strength of the 9wt Guide which was 40. I have found that the line companies are forthcoming with additional information not found on their respective web sites if contacted by email or telephone.
    RIO Tarpon
    WF9 - 30lb
    WF10 - 40lb
    WF11 - 50lb
    WF12 - 50lb



  • poncedoradoponcedorado Posts: 606 Officer
    Curious what's y'alls take on the guys that try to catch billfish on fly? Mainly by trolling lures and hookless dead baits to tease the fish up behind the transom and dropping a big streamer right in front of his face.

    It doesn't offend me, but at the same time I see it as more of a stunt than actual fly fishing. Nothing wrong with it IMO other than the premise that fly fishing for blue marlin is objectively kind of a silly thing to do. But if you've caught so many blue marlin that catching them on bait is boring, good for you 
  • sunflowersunflower osprey, floridaPosts: 655 Officer


    I don't think there is really any other way to catch a billfish on fly.
    It's worse than that, because technically to catch them on fly, the boat has to be out of gear/not trolling when the fly fisherman makes the cast. What they do is throw the boat into neutral a moment before the cast is made, so the boat is still moving at 5 mph, though technically it is dead. It is hardly a flycast at all.
    That's great, except that now they are hooked to a sailfish or marlin ... probably a heck of a fight.
    Mark

    grace finds goodness in everything ...



  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 4,448 Captain
    A friend of mine had a chance to fish marlin on fly down in Panama (and being smarter than me... he jumped on it...).  Here's how the captain had him set up that day... He was told to completely back his drag to zero - then wait until the fish was teased up properly before tossing his fly - slightly to the side of the fish so it would swing into position as he started stripping... Shazam... they actually raised a small black marlin, about 200lbs, he made the cast and hooked up.  Immediately his line was screaming off the reel straight to the rear then just moments later that fish was 200 yards in front of the boat headed in the opposite direction (while his backing was still going away from the stern at high speed..). 

    You guessed it, they're so fast and powerful that water pressure alone would pop you off if you had the slightest drag set on the reel... While the backing was going one way the fish had turned and went screaming off in the exact opposite direction... No, he didn't stay attached long but I'd have never guessed that they were that quick and powerful... 

    The first billfish on fly were taken during the sixties if memory serves and it was years before even the first small marlin was successfully raised, hooked, and brought to hand on the fly.  Yes, there's lots of teamwork involved - and it's nothing at all like most fly fishing but what a rush when you succeed...  Of course a serious marlin angler was once heard to say that chasing marlin with any kind of gear was like standing under a cold shower throwing away hundred dollar bills... so it's not for everyone.... 
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • Randy RichterRandy Richter Posts: 64 Deckhand
    sunflower said:


    I don't think there is really any other way to catch a billfish on fly.
    It's worse than that, because technically to catch them on fly, the boat has to be out of gear/not trolling when the fly fisherman makes the cast. What they do is throw the boat into neutral a moment before the cast is made, so the boat is still moving at 5 mph, though technically it is dead. It is hardly a flycast at all.
    That's great, except that now they are hooked to a sailfish or marlin ... probably a heck of a fight.
    I'll be in Magdalena Bay this November, where you can catch striped marlin by sliding up to bait balls where they are blasting sardinas.  Not that I will object to the teasing thing if I have to, but casting to free swimming fish herding bait sound unbelievably cool.
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 4,448 Captain
    Amen....
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • sunflowersunflower osprey, floridaPosts: 655 Officer
    edited August 11 #12

    They catch dozens of sailfish a day in Guatemala, (not all on fly), and sometimes big numbers of striped marlin (even dozens) in Cabo. Billfish on fly is definitely a thing if you get the chance and can afford it. I guess the real problem is hauling up a few-hundred pound fish if it goes deep and sits there. Tarpon tend to be caught in shallow water, and jump and come up and tire themselves out. Sailfish and marlin favor the top couple hundred of feet, but it still must be murder to haul one up from 100" with a fly rod.
    Again, the technique is to get to the fish (and leader) as fast as possible and call it a "caught fish" before it sounds deep. They never fight the fish "sportingly" from a dead boat. It's better for the fish and angler to finish the fight quickly. Little fun for fish or angler in a 6-hour Old Man and the Sea fight.
    This is probably why big tuna (yellowfins, bluefins) on the fly isn't a thing. They are naturally deep-sounding during the fight.

    These are from my pre-fly days.
    A striped marlin and roosterfish in Cabo.
    Sailfish and cubera snapper in Costa Rica.

    (Back then, I had slightly more hair, and didn't over-process my trophy photos)



    Mark

    grace finds goodness in everything ...



  • tarpon41tarpon41 Posts: 283 Deckhand
    Amen and I still do, East Cape Los Barriles, it but usually with a young colleague or my daughter to hold on to me belt so as not to be pulled in...I do take the 12wt Colton for by catching Dorado or trying to pitch a surfing Striped Marlin before Captain pitches ballyhoo so far my flycasting for the Stripes has been a failure mainly because we are trolling light stand-up gear with marlin plugs, ballyhoo with hooks for conventional fishing...so casting is problematic off the stern and the pictured dink Dorado flycaught  was part of a school brought to the Panga by live sardines and live lining...the dinks were quick whereas the big Bulls lower in the water column were slow just like Jacks taking the fly out of the Tarpon's mouth....the cast was a 25-30 'roll cast off the panga's stern...for me the East Cape is nirvana...flat calm to a two foot chop...25 ' Panga  with my favorite Captain for 350 for the day...no place that I know off but the Sea of Cortez can you go comfortably Bill fishing for 350 for the day...I still like light stand up conventional for Striped Marlin and Pacific Sails and  Wahoos...if I was younger I'd try what Randy is doing in November on the Pacific side just with a flyrod...but I still have not got enough Marlin with conventional to give it up ...i'd like to conclude with smallish Blue about 200 lb on my gear then if I'm still vertical and able switch to fly only...
    BTW ate the last of that big Bull last nite flash frozen brought back from the East Cape.
  • JWTJWT Posts: 781 Officer
    no - you shouldn't scent your flies.

    when i fished with a club, we had a bitter debate since one of the guys soaked his fly in a box of shrimp mush & caught a big black drum & submitted for a record. in the club, IGFA rules applied on club outings, so this was not within bounds & we called him on it. we didn't  speak much after that. 

    i have done billfish on fly in Venezuela & it is a lot of fun. lot of work too! i used IGFA rigs just in case i was able to get a record sized fish. the captains were familiar with the rules & would let you know when they pulled it out of gear & to make the cast (i use that term loosely :) )   done it here in Miami also using kites & live teasers for sails  (this is more difficult as the boat is drifting down on your fly & your window is very small to get a bite) 
    it is fly fishing but i would my rather sight cast to flats fish.

    as far as leaders,  for just having fun, i will use a "cheater leader" for baby tarpon & small snook. just a straight 20-30# section. it saves a lot of time cause they will chew thru bite tippets quick. with a rig like that you don't have to retie a complex leader or a new bite section. just keep cutting it back until it gets too short & loop on a new piece. 

    flies should be flies not lures !


  • jaymjaym Posts: 121 Deckhand
    I am not the fishing police, you can scent your fly just don't present it as a fly caught fish or at least state it as so.

    Second on lures versus flies. Like Lefty said if you can't cast it with a conventional rod than it can be a fly. Look at the gummy minnow, balsa popper and many others that would have been considered lures by many.

    The MOE fly, Branham's permit fly are epoxy based and could be considered almost a jig like.
  • troutbomtroutbom Posts: 371 Deckhand
    Latest thing in trout fishing is tying nymphs on jig hooks with a tungsten bead head for weight. It's a jig, albeit tiny. I lean toward Lefty's rule of thumb. BTW, so is a Clouser nothing but a small jig you cast on fly rod.  
  • tarpon41tarpon41 Posts: 283 Deckhand
    So added weight is to be the deciding factor ...flyfishing or no
  • BooBooBooBoo Vero Beach Fl and Ft. Lupton ColoradoPosts: 200 Deckhand
    This type debate/ opinions reminds me very much of the debates and opinions expressed by traditional archers. I have been involved in traditional archery since childhood. I always thought fly fishing was to fishing what traditional archery is to hunting. The less traveled road taken by the more dedicated who didn’t always measure success by the fur or fins taken or landed. 
  • ClamfootClamfoot ChuluotaPosts: 56 Deckhand
    BooBoo said:
    This type debate/ opinions reminds me very much of the debates and opinions expressed by traditional archers. I have been involved in traditional archery since childhood. I always thought fly fishing was to fishing what traditional archery is to hunting. The less traveled road taken by the more dedicated who didn’t always measure success by the fur or fins taken or landed. 
    That is a **** good analogy. 

    How did the the Pike bunnies workout?
    The good Lord came to save liars and sinners, that’s why he started with 4 fishermen
  • BooBooBooBoo Vero Beach Fl and Ft. Lupton ColoradoPosts: 200 Deckhand
    edited August 19 #20
    Pike bunnies did just fine. They don’t survive a pike attack very well though. Maybe my lack of tying skills. After the pike chewed they look like a mucusy hair ball a cat threw up on a hook. Eyes missing or barely hanging on, tail gone and the rest a mangled mess. Is it worth it….yeah!
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 4,448 Captain
    A big tarpon tears up a fly pretty well so you figure every one of them gets a new fly - every time…
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • troutbomtroutbom Posts: 371 Deckhand
    Boo Boo, the bunny flies look exactly like a hairball after as  few as one fish! However, when fishing for toothless fish like reds, snook or tarpon they can be revived. After fishing I rinse well, dry and comb out with fine tooth comb. On Monday I got 2 juvie poons on a revived fly that has 5 tarpon to its credit as well as several reds and snook. I have replaced one eye twice.  BTW, I found super Locktite super glue gel works well for me for eyes and Loon UV cured epoxy in Flow for head cement. No matter what you use, the eyes come off after a tough fish or two.
  • AlwaysLearningMoreAlwaysLearningMore Posts: 195 Deckhand
    A fun thread to follow.  Some fly guys think that anything other than a dry fly is not a true fly.  It's all about where you draw your own line.  Do what makes you happy.
  • ClamfootClamfoot ChuluotaPosts: 56 Deckhand
    Booboo

    After seeing what pike do to baby ducks I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with your tying skills. 
    The good Lord came to save liars and sinners, that’s why he started with 4 fishermen
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