Handguns
Subscribe
Home› Conservation Front
harbison
Posts: 5,772 Admiral
ACCOUNTABILITY
harbison
Posts: 5,772 Admiral
ACCOUNTABILITY:
For the commercial fisherman fishing means making a living. It means supporting one's self and family.
Commercial fishing adds jobs to our economy while providing fish for those not fortunate enough to be able to catch their own. It's a hard, dangerous, way of making a living:
Accountability: The commercial fisherman works under a very strict IFQ System. Every fish is accounted for. In addition, a working VMS is required. The vessel monitoring system (VMS) is a satellite-based monitoring system which at regular intervals provides data to the fisheries authorities on location, course and speed of the vessel. NOAA knows every move.
For the commercial fisherman it's most often not a question of getting rich, but surviving.
Properly managed there is a place for both commercial and recreational fishing.
To the avid recreational fisherman/woman fishing is a...
A major problem facing the recreational fisherman today is the lack of accountability resulting in short seasons and un-realistic possession limits. Dock surveys and random phone calls provide little to NO real accountability. NOAA can interpret the data to show whatever it is they want to show.
Sector Separation separated the private boat owner from those who fish on paid for hire boats.
On federally permitted head/charter boats the accountability is there.
Grouper Snapper tally sheet:
I was on board when the FWC boarded the Florida Fisherman ll one hundred off Madeira Beach, Florida. The FWC officers were interested and extremely pleased with the Florida's on-going fish count:
This accountability is why the for-hire 'sector' 2019 Gulf of Mexico American Red Snapper season last from June 1 until August 2. Accountability proved that the 2018 quota was not reached.
Many suggestions have been discussed as to how to increase accountability for the recreational fisherman.
One idea calls for a 'tag' system. This could possibly lead to realistic catch numbers. But they are inherent problems... How and to whom would the tags be distributed? Would the $$$'s generated go back into the fishery, or in the pockets of those who buy & sell tags? This continues to be a problem with the commercial IFQ system as IFQ's are bought and sold for profit.
Hopefully these problems can be worked out allowing real accountability resulting in a better fishery for one & all.
For the commercial fisherman fishing means making a living. It means supporting one's self and family.
Commercial fishing adds jobs to our economy while providing fish for those not fortunate enough to be able to catch their own. It's a hard, dangerous, way of making a living:
Accountability: The commercial fisherman works under a very strict IFQ System. Every fish is accounted for. In addition, a working VMS is required. The vessel monitoring system (VMS) is a satellite-based monitoring system which at regular intervals provides data to the fisheries authorities on location, course and speed of the vessel. NOAA knows every move.
For the commercial fisherman it's most often not a question of getting rich, but surviving.
Properly managed there is a place for both commercial and recreational fishing.
To the avid recreational fisherman/woman fishing is a...
A major problem facing the recreational fisherman today is the lack of accountability resulting in short seasons and un-realistic possession limits. Dock surveys and random phone calls provide little to NO real accountability. NOAA can interpret the data to show whatever it is they want to show.
Sector Separation separated the private boat owner from those who fish on paid for hire boats.
On federally permitted head/charter boats the accountability is there.
Grouper Snapper tally sheet:
I was on board when the FWC boarded the Florida Fisherman ll one hundred off Madeira Beach, Florida. The FWC officers were interested and extremely pleased with the Florida's on-going fish count:
This accountability is why the for-hire 'sector' 2019 Gulf of Mexico American Red Snapper season last from June 1 until August 2. Accountability proved that the 2018 quota was not reached.
Many suggestions have been discussed as to how to increase accountability for the recreational fisherman.
One idea calls for a 'tag' system. This could possibly lead to realistic catch numbers. But they are inherent problems... How and to whom would the tags be distributed? Would the $$$'s generated go back into the fishery, or in the pockets of those who buy & sell tags? This continues to be a problem with the commercial IFQ system as IFQ's are bought and sold for profit.
Hopefully these problems can be worked out allowing real accountability resulting in a better fishery for one & all.
Replies
And, it is THIS DATA that they use to claim the for-hire sector has underfished their quota each year since Sector Separation was implemented.
Bob, exactly what accountability measures have been implemented for the Gulf charter boats since Sector Separation was implemented? (Answer: NONE). To claim Sector Separation has somehow made Gulf charter boats “more accountable” is a farce.
Tags would give private recs 0-1 red snapper PER YEAR according to Dr. Crabtree. How can you propose such an idiotic idea as a supposed solution? You are reading DIRECTLY from the EDF playbook my friend.
Tom
I should have added that it was there long before Sector Separation was even thought of.
The Florida Fisherman ll has been working closely with the FWC for many years:
They are always welcome, encouraged, to be on board.
This is real on the water data:
"Dock surveys and random phone calls provide little to NO real accountability. NOAA can interpret the data to show whatever it is they want to show." HARD FACTS are difficult to manipulate!
"To claim Sector Separation has somehow made Gulf charter boats “more accountable” is a farce."
Agreed!
Sector separation is nothing more than EDF's NOAA attempt to divide & conquer.
Accurate counts on head boats began long before S/S.
TAGS: "How can you propose such an idiotic idea as a supposed solution?"
READ ON!
"One idea calls for a 'tag' system. This could P O S S I B L Y lead to realistic catch numbers. But they are inherent problems... How and to whom would the tags be distributed? Would the $$$'s generated go back into the fishery, or in the pockets of those who buy & sell tags? This continues to be a problem with the commercial IFQ system as IFQ's are bought and sold for profit."
Personally the only way I would even consider supporting any kind of a 'tag-system' would be if and only if the EDF was completely out of the picture; with Crabtree close behind.
There must be a better way of obtaining "realistic catch numbers."
Any ideas?
Some good news:
Tallahassee, Fla. — Today, Governor Ron DeSantis and the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) announced six additional recreational red snapper fishing days for Gulf waters. The season for private recreational anglers and state for-hire operations will be open on the following Saturdays and Sundays: October 12-13, 19-20 and 26-27.
REAL accountability, with REAL data..."six additional recreational red snapper fishing days for Gulf waters" could, should, be only the start.
Putting a FWC agent on every rec's boat, like they occasionally do with Hubbard's, isn't really a viable alternative, and I presume the various flavors of "ask the angler" (i.e. the status quo) don't appeal to you either.
What other alternatives do we have? I've got an idea, but I'd prefer if you go first.
Thanks....Mike
p.s. you have the NOAA, FWC, Crabtree, and even the EDF to thank for the rebounded RS fishery and its now longer recreational season, incidentally, despite your protestations to the contrary. Regulations work. Now you may not like them or the people who propose them, but the proof is in your pictures.
Disagree. The EDF has ulterior motives and Crabtree (NOAA) was in their pocket. FWC just follows along to get Federal money.
“Everyone behaves badly--given the chance.”
― Ernest Hemingway
Not saying that regulations do not work. In order for our fishery to thrive strict, very strict, regulations are absolutely essential. A good example of 'no regulations' is what we did to the huge Kingfish schools of the sixties. I say "we" because I was part of it. Another good example is the American Red Snapper. When I first started fishing the Middle Grounds with Hubbard's in the mid seventies, and for many years after, there were NO Red Snapper on the Middle Grounds. With 'no regulations' they had long before been fished-out. Why do we now have ARS in numbers? Many believe they followed the pipe line. Did they... Who knows?
As far as... "you have the NOAA, FWC, Crabtree, and even the EDF to thank for the rebounded RS fishery and its now longer recreational season"
Can't forget the 9 then 3 day Red Snapper Seasons. It took the Department of Commerce; not the NOAA Gang, to recognize the "rebounded RS fishery'' and do something about it.
The EDF has ulterior motives and Crabtree (NOAA) was in their pocket. That 'ulterior motive' is catch shares.
Following is text from an email to the Environmental Defense Fund (EDF) that Ben Platt, a Fort Bragg, CA fisherman, wrote in response to EDF’s promotion of catch shares:
"EDF’s campaign to implement catch shares in our nation’s fisheries is not only misguided, but it is a serious threat to the livelihoods of the majority of American fishermen. Fishermen beware: you are gazing directly into the friendly eyes of a lion in sheep’s clothing! easy sells to the legions of non-fishing folks who are easily convinced that something needs to be saved because EDF tells them so and they don’t have enough other information to know any better. Fortunately for fishermen, we have already witnessed the disastrous results to fishing communities when this system of management has been imposed and we will not let it happen to us."
If you study EDF's campaign you will see that the "us" also includes recreational.
"Putting a FWC agent on every rec's boat, like they occasionally do with Hubbard's, isn't really a viable alternative" Would be impossible.
"ask the angle" Means little to nothing. Said angler is going to report whatever he/she thinks is needed to increase possession/season limits.
"What other alternatives do we have? I've got an idea"
My bottom line is that our fishery needs more accurate accountability measures. How can this be better achieved?
"I've got an idea" Fantastic! It's probably a good one. Let's hear it.
Moving on, the idea to solve recreational accountability and better rec data is a simple one: Pass a law/regulation that requires you to use a phone application that you take a picture of your fish (against a measuring device?) before you put it in the cooler. In order to possess it, you have to have registered your catch in the application, and the catches are registered in real time (when in cell range) or upon return to cell range if you're too far offshore to register it and stored in the app in the meantime. If you don't have a phone, you log the catch the same way (except writing it down in a log book) and are required by law to send it in within one week of returning to port (or otherwise self-report). If you get checked by the FWC or whoever without the data to back up your catch and you're in violation. In short, we force accountability and put in place regulations and a support structure that provide it.
Not perfect data, by any means, as there will always be those who won't comply with any regulation, but if done right, I'd say it would close much of the reporting loopholes and thus improve accountability without sliding down your slippery slope landing at catch shares (which as much as you'd like us to think it's the work of the devil, it really isn't a bad idea -- as a hunter I'm sure you understand the value of game tags, and there really isn't much difference).
But what happens when it correlates with NMFS surveys?
Absolutely! That's why our fishery must be strongly regulated. Regulated for what is best for the sport, not $$$.
"the facts are there are no catch shares in the rec fishery" Because of me & people like staff reporter, Mr. Richard Gaines, Gloucester Times:
The decision of the Walton Family Foundation to invest $36,341,561 in Environmental Defense Fund and other nonprofits helping the Obama administration re-engineer U.S. fisheries though catch share programs has produced a nascent campaign to boycott Wal-Mart stores. Thank goodness Obama is long gone.
Think they are not talking about both commercial/recreational? Do your homework.
" it really isn't a bad idea -- as a hunter I'm sure you understand the value of game tags, and there really isn't much difference)" HUGE DIFFERENCES: NO EDF, NO NOAA, NO Pew, NO $$$ INVOLVED.
"Moving on, the idea to solve recreational accountability and better rec data is a simple one: Pass a law/regulation that requires you to use a phone application that you take a picture of your fish (against a measuring device?) before you put it in the cooler. In order to possess it, you have to have registered your catch in the application, and the catches are registered in real time (when in cell range) or upon return to cell range if you're too far offshore to register it and stored in the app in the meantime. If you don't have a phone, you log the catch the same way (except writing it down in a log book) and are required by law to send it in within one week of returning to port (or otherwise self-report). If you get checked by the FWC or whoever without the data to back up your catch and you're in violation. In short, we force accountability and put in place regulations and a support structure that provide it."
"In short, we force accountability and put in place regulations and a support structure that provide it"
"But what happens when it correlates with NMFS surveys?" It Won't!
Sounds good to me. 100 % in favor of anything to increase accountability on the recreational side.
There's a lot here to unpack. First, you're too late to stop catch shares in the commercial fisheries, and even this administration has not rolled back those management systems. Second, your "nascent" campaign which you've been aping RFA/FRA for years now, has been wildly unsuccessful if it even happened. Third, nobody said they are not talking about it, but the facts are the facts and what I said about catch shares is 100% true, like it or not. Fourth, the Walton Family Trust and the EDF have just as much right to voice their opinion on the topic as you do, disagree with them if you will. Fifth, if you think Obama played to commercial interests, and this administration is going to take a different tact, I have a bridge in Manhattan to sell you, as you're seemingly letting your political views color your vision on this topic.harbison said: Setting aside who is advocating for it, please explain the difference between, say, a deer or alligator tag and a fish tag, because I don't see it. If it works for hunting, and it does, why can't it work for fishing? Simply waving the flags of EDF, NOAA, and Pew don't make it a bad idea, so kindly explain the difference so I can understand why you're saying what you're saying.
You have no idea what the data will show so don't pretend that you do. It is certainly possible, and I would argue even probable, that the surveys will correlate with more direct measurement like the idea I shared. You would be wise, I think, to consider that possibility, and I understand completely why you choose to ignore it.
As for my idea, I'm glad you like it. Do you have any of your own? You've been really clear, for years now, about things you don't like, but do you have any constructive ideas on solutions?
Thanks for your consideration and, in advance, for your response...Mike
Guess I am not as optimistic as you. Sincerely hope you are correct. Let's hope that someday we have the opportunity to find out.
If it can be proven with actual, meaningful, non-manipulated data that shorter/longer season limits and adjustments to size and possession limits are in the best interest of the fishery... I am strongly in favor.
Solutions: It's easy to see what is wrong, but much more difficult to better the situation. Sadly I guess I really do not have any suggestions. I like the "direct measurement" I see with the for hire sector; however, that situation is completely different from the pure recreational side.
Your idea to... "force accountability and put in place regulations and a support structure that provide it." Is one of the better solutions to date. Would love to see it implemented.
This was just posted in the West Central Section by anglers looking for Mangrove Snapper:
"I ran 60+ miles to 125' last Friday, looking for Mangos, and all I caught were ARS and Almaco's
"Caught 15 on the last grouper/snapper trip at different stops of same area. Would be nice to thin them out a tad so we could start getting to the mangos there again!"
ALWAYS have a place to catch fish
"Thanks, Bob." Thank you sir.
We may not agree on everything, but I believe we both want what is best for fishermen & fish alike.
I am strongly in favor of regulations, strict regulations, based on accurate data.
Back when I started serious Gulf fishing, early sixties, regulations were few & far between, and recreational anglers could sell our catch. I personally did this on a very regular basis:
I know; I took the pictures. There was always a good market for grouper @ .25 cents a pound. Kingfish was a different story. Often during the Spring run the Tampa markets were flooded beyond capacity. Many times I was forced to go to Aylesworth in St. Pete to sell them for .10 a pound. The huge school were so big that they could never be decimated.
WRONG! We destroyed them. We can never allow things like that happen again.
Now we are facing a different kind of problem:
Using the Florida Middle Grounds as an example, many of the more productive ledges have been taken over by the very aggressive American Red Snapper; taken over at that expense of long time residents such a Mangrove Snapper.
I took these pictures beginning of the 2019 ARS season. We fished for Mangrove Snapper at night & Red Snapper during the day. Note the lack of Mangrove Snapper.
Regulations? Absolutely! But we also must have a healthy balance.
Fishing has been, is, and, properly managed, will always be a way of life in the Fishing Capital of the World.
And Florida Fishing is not just for men.
Ladies and the young are deeply involved:
This is Captain Garett Hubbard and his Son:
These are my great-grand-children. I want to make sure they ALWAYS have a place to catch fish:
Properly managed, not over-managed, they, we, will...
'ALWAYS have a place to catch fish'
1st reef fish survey showed that all the way to close to the Keys..
I don't have a link.
1st reef fish survey showed that all the way to close to the Keys.."
Did not know that. Thanks for the information.
Most here seem to think the red snapper is a new fish to our waters, but your observation paints a different picture.
Question: I think I know the answer, but would like to hear from those who know more than I.
Why are they called AMERICAN Red Snapper.
Another Question: In the late fifties we had both Black & Red Grouper; never heard of a Gag. When did we start calling Gags by their real name?
A few quotes:
Fishing grounds - From areas lying close to the mainland (inside 40 fathoms) off Florida and the "Middle Grounds" south- east of Pensacola to the "Western Grounds" off Texas and the Campeche Banks off Mexico. [Page 1]
With discovery in 1885 of new snapper grounds between Tampa and the Dry Tortugas by the U.S. Fish Commission research vessel Albatross (Collins, 1885), and discovery of excellent snapper grounds (Galveston "Lumps" or "Western Grounds") off Texas in the 1880's (Camber, 1955), new centers were established, and thefishery gradually spread out from Pensacola. These centers, Tampa, Carrabelle, Apalachicola, Panama Cit), and iceville, Fla.; Pascagoula, Mis .; and Fre port and Brownsville, Tex., were supplied With fish caught b) smaller vessels on grounds that had been 'abandoned earlier by the larger ves els (Camber, 1955). e\\, ports that have developed as snapper center in recent years are Bayou La Batre and Gulf hores, Ala.; and Corpu Christi, Port Arthur, and Aransas Pass, Tex. [Page 7]
The red snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico was started about 1850 off Pensacola, Fla. During early years, live-well vessels fished inside the 40-fathom curve between Mobile, Ala., and Cape St. George, Fla. As the fishery expanded it gradually exploited the grounds off Texas to the Rio Grande and the banks along the west coast of Florida to the Dry Tortugas. [Page 31]
Fascinating read. Thanks.
One of my hobbies is looking into Hubbard's history.
Captain Wilson Hubbard's first headboat:
Prices were a 'little' different way back when:
Pass a law/regulation that requires you to use a phone application that you take a picture of your fish (against a measuring device?) before you put it in the cooler. In order to possess it, you have to have registered your catch in the application, and the catches are registered in real time (when in cell range) or upon return to cell range if you're too far offshore to register it and stored in the app in the meantime. If you don't have a phone, you log the catch the same way (except writing it down in a log book) and are required by law to send it in within one week of returning to port (or otherwise self-report).
A possible start from NOAA:
NOAA
In a new report, NOAA Fisheries describes how electronic technologies, including web and app-based data collection programs, may improve the agency's estimates of marine recreational catch. The report finds "opt-in," or non-mandatory, angler reporting apps to be appropriate for collecting qualitative data that support citizen science-based studies. But for these apps to produce population-level estimates of recreational catch, a large proportion of anglers would have to consistently use them to report accurate information about their fishing trips, and a statistically valid probability-based sampling survey would have to validate self-reported data, monitor the extent of reporting, and account for unreported trips.
Could be a possible start. However, I have questions about "opt-in," or non-mandatory aspect.
What do you think?
To me that brings up a major problem... Strawberry or banana?
Other Hobbies... Great question! Thanks for asking.
Sir, if more would get more involved, as you have, this would be an even better forum.
Guess the think I like most is interacting with my daughter, granddaughter, and great grandchildren. Not sure if you would consider that a hobby, but it's my life.
Next up would be photography, both still & video.
On the water or in the field, my cameras are always with me:
Video carries a tremendous challenge. I love i! My last fishing video has been viewed,1,600 time in the first two weeks.
Next up:
What do I do with all the hogs I harvest?
I cook i! Don't know which I like better:
On the grill...
Or the very best whole hog sausage.
I have turned sausage making into an art...
Looks like more study is needed.
Next is my High School, Jesuit, football.
I was there the night Malik Davis destroyed the old Hillsborouh County rushing record. Watched him last weekend rushing for the Gators. He still wears his Jesuit # 20.
Proud to be a Jesuit grad. To say Jesuit is a tough school would be an understatement.
I park in the exact same spot I parked in over 55 years ago.
But my car is a 'little' different now. That Special Edition Camry is something else. A hobby of mine is driving it on the open road while listening to Willy's Country Classics on satellite radio.
One small problem... My daughter, Dee, liked it so much she has claimed it.
"What are some of your other hobbies"? Anyone else out there with interesting hobbies? Please share!
My area is more bud light, bottle of course though some like it in the can..