Home Conservation Front

advanced fishing license

BarrellBarrell Posts: 1,293 Officer
edited September 2018 in Conservation Front #1
 What do you think about a system with two kinds of licenses ? A license like we have now or basic license with no changes.. And then a advanced license where the applicant has to complete training on species identification, wildlife management, safely handling , de hooking, and releasing fish. Angler must carry release tools and report all fish caught on an app. Angler must make themselves available for interview or questionnaire. Angler must also pay more for license. Reward would be a more generous season, special permits or limits. Any violations of fishery law would eliminate angler from having advanced license..
  So is it a outrageous idea or would some serious guys be willing to put the time in to obtain the advanced fishing license?

Replies

  • What's in it for me? :D
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • Reel TealReel Teal Posts: 3,963 Captain
    I think it would be nice to offer a program to be involved in. No I dont think it should cost anything, it's for research so we shouldn't have to pay. Also as far as limits, they should be the same for everyone.

    I participate in harvest reporting for waterfowl. I send in feathers and wings of birds for research. I dont get any special license nor get to shoot more ducks than someone else. 

    I am a firm believer that just because you care about the laws and resource doesn't entitle you to a lions share of the resource. 

    I do support the research angle. It would be nice
  • BarrellBarrell Posts: 1,293 Officer
    What's in it for me? :D

     That would have to be worked out. But in exchange for taking the time to provide dream data to fisheries managers there needs to be a reward as most would have your attitude not the attitude of reel teal. Reel Teal is one a the few who would do it simply for the satisfaction of helping out fisheries management. Biologist want everyone by law to have to provide daily full data on every single fish caught. But thats not politically feasible. So it needs to be a two tier system where those willing to take the time need to get a reward in return.
      I could see red snapper tag for every six fishing  reports filed. A website where all your data is stored so you could log in and check your fishing data from the past. Maybe being asked to participate in special research where you get to fish out of season during the research program. We would be a tool for researches to take advantage of and use as they see the need.
      My son in law is a fisheries biologist. He spent 7 years working for Louisiana and is now stationed in Florida. We have argued many times over some IPA's about regulations. He has explained to me that researchers all want more data and they arent getting it. When they lack data they always play it safe and go with the most restrictive options.
      A program like this would provide data like they never expected to get in their lifetimes.
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 4,423 Captain
    The last paragraph is telling... just think, we could create lots and lots of more jobs in fisheries management... layer after layer of folks just dying to tell us what to do.

    In the meantime... all the really hard decisions faced by the leaders of our state will continue to get lip service and no action at all (particularly water quality issues)...  Yes, we need good fisheries management - but that only works well when our fisheries have a chance.  Decisions made over the last 80 years about our native clean waters have led us to the point of no return (almost....).  Every year that passes shows us more clearly than ever how messed up all our fresh waters are from north of Lake Okeechobee all the way south to Florida Bay (and the terrible consequences of that are clearly shown on both coasts a as the nutrient loaded waters from an artificially high big lake are forcibly discharged to the east and west...).

    Wish it weren't so...
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,594 Captain
    There are ready 2 types of fishing licenses; 1 for those that fish on their own boats and another for those who fish on for-hire boats.  Different season days and numbers of fishing days allowed to access the fishery based on what platform your feet are standing on.
  • red_snapperdatared_snapperdata destinPosts: 10 Greenhorn
    Rec fisherman need to be requesting a new stock assessment using the NMFS (FES survey). This survey shows how the fishery has rebounded but they are reluctant to use it. It should give more days, then rec anglers have to become more accountable!
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,594 Captain
    Once the NMFS/Gulf Council become accountable, I’m all FOR rec anglers being accountable.  Until then, they can stick that buzzword “accountability” up their backside.
  • xeniaxenia Posts: 1,013 Officer
    edited September 2018 #9
    One of the most frequently used comments I hear from those criticizing agencies charged with regulating fisheries is that "their data is flawed."  I would reply with "where's your data?"  I think a system where fishermen generate landings and observational data could be beneficial to everyone.  Citizen science is not new.  There is tremendous participation in data gathering by birders (birdwatchers in layman's terms).  Each time they are out they report their sightings and it goes into a database.  If you really have a problem with what the agencies are telling you as to the conditions of fish stocks, you better have some data to back it up.
  • pottydocpottydoc Port Saint JoePosts: 4,891 Captain
    Nothing personal, but I think it’s a ignorant idea. If you think that our fine councils and other governing boards would pay any attention to our “data” you are sadly mistaken. Just like Lamar said, we don’t need more government folks trying to justify their jogs by screwing up the fisheries any more than they already have. The ARS garbage is a prime example. They have plenty of data, with the best being you have to beat the reds off of your bait to catch any other fish pretty much anywhere in the GOM. But the Gulf Council still says they’re scarce. Yeah, more regulation is just what we need. 
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,756 Captain
    pottydoc said:
    Nothing personal, but I think it’s a ignorant idea. If you think that our fine councils and other governing boards would pay any attention to our “data” you are sadly mistaken. Just like Lamar said, we don’t need more government folks trying to justify their jogs by screwing up the fisheries any more than they already have. The ARS garbage is a prime example. They have plenty of data, with the best being you have to beat the reds off of your bait to catch any other fish pretty much anywhere in the GOM. But the Gulf Council still says they’re scarce. Yeah, more regulation is just what we need. 

    Well said.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,594 Captain
    Why do I need to provide data for red snapper when exponentially more people fish 365 days/year for redfish, trout, and flounder WITHOUT any requirements for providing “data”?   Remember also that the bag limits for those species are much more liberal than snapper despite exponentially more people fishing 365 days in an area that is 1/50th the size of red snapper habitat.  It’s clear that political science has replaced fisheries science.  Ideology has trumped competent methodology.  
  • BarrellBarrell Posts: 1,293 Officer
    The idea is we would report all catches this isnt about red snapper nor is it about water quality or politics. To many trying to hijack this thread. Its simply about reporting everything caught and its size. When my two buddies and I bottom fish off shore we catch hundreds of fish in one day with maybe 12 to 14 different species. We dont keep a log because its not a law that we have to. And that wouldnt work as not everyone would do that.
      There is also no reason or advantage for us to take the time to complete catch data. However a program like I proposed would give us a reason to keep a clipboard on the dash and write down the sizes on the 12 short trigger fish we threw back and the 12 keepers we kept.Even the 3 or 4 nurse sharks we usually wrestle up from the bottom every day. Lack of data is what is hurting us when it comes to seasons and limits. Providing that data is coming in the future wether you like it or not. Might as well start now and get some freebies for doing it.
  • pottydocpottydoc Port Saint JoePosts: 4,891 Captain
    While while you may not be talking about ARS, that’s what we are using to judge what our fine fisheries mamagers will do with the data. The red snapper seasons and limits are a disaster, and the people in charge don’t give a crap about any science or data involved. We have all the rules, seasons, limits, closed areas, and permits forced on us already that we need. A big absolutely no ay for any kind of “advanced” license.
  • BarrellBarrell Posts: 1,293 Officer
    Clearly then if the system today isnt working then we need to try something different? Do you agree?
  • BarrellBarrell Posts: 1,293 Officer
    edited September 2018 #16
    There are many fisherman with real nice boats and real nice rods that dont have a clue or dont care about safely releasing fish. We all are are penalized because of it with shorter seasons. I know Ive killed my share when it was big jig and hard to get to.
      Every species has a "mortality rate" that is used to estimate how many shorts and out of season fish are being mishandled and die. That number is then subtracted from the limits allotted to us. If we all agreed to get trained in order become better stewards of the resource those "mortality rates" might be reduced. Most of what I see on the water is guys spending to much time with the pliers trying to get back a ten cent hook. Most pliers have line cutters on them.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,386 AG
    back when i fish trapped I had to do a release/mortality report for every trip as did all us 75 or so fishers with a trap license..
    It was (in my mind) a catch 22 type deal with if I released a lot of shorts(which I did my best to stay away from as short fish don;t make money) then the mortality rate would be interpreted as high but if I claimed I didn't catch many shorts then the recruitment level would be interpreted as low..
    a conundrum for sure.

    I just reported as factually as I could and let the chips fall where they lay.. I know some fishers that did not..
    That kind of reporting doesn't help biologists make informed decisions.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 4,423 Captain
    As a full  time guide in Everglades National Park I'm obligated to file a trip ticket type report for every day I'm in the Park (with or without customers aboard)  -and an annual "commercial user" report with customer figures and monies generated.  At the end of every year they come up with an annual report based on the reports they've received... In all of those 22 years I've never seen the slightest indication that anything at all is done with the data - other than that report.... except for their recent proposal to raise our annual guide's permit fees - based on our revenues each year....

    Given the terrible decline of water quality along both coasts and all of the interior from there down to Florida Bay from Orlando south...  (and hardly any sign that the folks who run our state have any intention of actually doing something about it..) -when fisheries management begins to look a bit like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.... You'll have a lot of trouble convincing me that additional bureaucratic type actions will have much positive result (and yes, I'm aware that specifically the red snapper fishery is very badly skewed towards commercial landings....).

    By the way, thank heavens that our state put an end to fish traps all those years ago.  I can't think of a more destructive commercial taking than what we experienced back then.  It was fairly common during that era to go into any inner city convenience store and find a cooler (with more water than ice...) absolutely filled with small tropical type fish for sale to anyone that came from places where fish traps had already reduced their native waters down to the nothings....  Wrasses, parrotfish, angelfish, spadefish (none of which any legitimate retail fishery would ever stock for sale...) and all of them taken day after day by those terrible traps right within sight of downtown Miami....  As you can guess - during those years the local snapper and grouper population almost disappeared... 
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,386 AG
    As a full  time guide in Everglades National Park I'm obligated to file a trip ticket type report for every day I'm in the Park (with or without customers aboard)  -and an annual "commercial user" report with customer figures and monies generated.  At the end of every year they come up with an annual report based on the reports they've received... In all of those 22 years I've never seen the slightest indication that anything at all is done with the data - other than that report.... except for their recent proposal to raise our annual guide's permit fees - based on our revenues each year....

    Given the terrible decline of water quality along both coasts and all of the interior from there down to Florida Bay from Orlando south...  (and hardly any sign that the folks who run our state have any intention of actually doing something about it..) -when fisheries management begins to look a bit like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.... You'll have a lot of trouble convincing me that additional bureaucratic type actions will have much positive result (and yes, I'm aware that specifically the red snapper fishery is very badly skewed towards commercial landings....).

    By the way, thank heavens that our state put an end to fish traps all those years ago.  I can't think of a more destructive commercial taking than what we experienced back then.  It was fairly common during that era to go into any inner city convenience store and find a cooler (with more water than ice...) absolutely filled with small tropical type fish for sale to anyone that came from places where fish traps had already reduced their native waters down to the nothings....  Wrasses, parrotfish, angelfish, spadefish (none of which any legitimate retail fishery would ever stock for sale...) and all of them taken day after day by those terrible traps right within sight of downtown Miami....  As you can guess - during those years the local snapper and grouper population almost disappeared... 
    Bob, we didn't target small fish up here, that problem was specific to south fl. and the hispanic population.

    75%+ of my catch was red grouper, with the rest a mix of b-liners, gags, grunts and seabass, all with a commercial value.
    I had to hail out and hail in and 90% of the time had LEO to observe my off loading.

    BTW, two points FYI, back in the keys and before a reef fish permit was in place the bucket brigade (rec fishermen) brought in many lbs of parrot fish to the fishhouses..

    One more point, spadefish up here brought .30 - .40 cents/lb and there was a good market for them, I used to target them on the inshore rocks with a gill net, couple of thousand lbs/day per day was a good check.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 4,423 Captain
    Way back in the early 80's my wife and I made a trip to Cayman Brac for a few days.  While doing a bit of exploring I noted stacks and stacks of fish traps along the beach (no dock facilities at all -they were rolling their hulls up onto to logs to gain acccess to their "storage area").  In some places the fish traps were stacked more than fifty feet high - that's how many they had -hundreds and hundreds of them.  I talked to a local and asked him about bottom fish anywhere near the island and, of course, they're simply weren't any at all.... That's what fish traps meant in my experience.  It was just one more nail in the structure that drove guys like me to eventually seek to outlaw that kind of gear - then ultimately move towards the inshore net ban years later... 

    Nowadays fisheries regulation has been overtaken by water quality issues which threaten us all... now if we could only convince the state of that.... 
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,386 AG
    Way back in the early 80's my wife and I made a trip to Cayman Brac for a few days.  While doing a bit of exploring I noted stacks and stacks of fish traps along the beach (no dock facilities at all -they were rolling their hulls up onto to logs to gain acccess to their "storage area").  In some places the fish traps were stacked more than fifty feet high - that's how many they had -hundreds and hundreds of them.  I talked to a local and asked him about bottom fish anywhere near the island and, of course, they're simply weren't any at all.... That's what fish traps meant in my experience.  It was just one more nail in the structure that drove guys like me to eventually seek to outlaw that kind of gear - then ultimately move towards the inshore net ban years later... 

    Nowadays fisheries regulation has been overtaken by water quality issues which threaten us all... now if we could only convince the state of that.... 
    We couldn't trap inside roughly 60' from Bowlegs pt south to the 28.10 line off Tarpon then out to roughly 90' and the SE to Ft. myers..
    We were limited to 100 traps.

    We hauled our traps out each trip, tended them 2-3 times per day and hauled them home at the end of the trip and reported any lost traps with locations..
    At $100+ per trap I certainly didn't want to lose any.

    Very clean fishery from Everglades City north to the Big Bend.

    BTW if they had no dockage how did they stack traps 50' high???

    sounds like a CCA story to me.  lol

    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • The Cat's EyeThe Cat's Eye Posts: 1,576 Captain
    I Scuba dove Cayman Brac back in the early 80's and came across many fish traps.
    Giimoozaabi
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 4,423 Captain
    to put it mildly the conditions in Cayman Brac way back then were pretty primitive... I doubt they used anything other that pure muscle power to stack those wooden traps higher and higher... row on row... 

    Glad to hear that your fishery actually behaved responsibly - in the Miami area they used pop up floats, etc... and just kept hammering the ground day after day.... - and since the bottom off the Atlantic side drops off much quicker than on the Gulf side they were working a relatively narrow band of depth along the coast...  What they did to the fishery was very hard to miss...  
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,386 AG
    we also attached the trap doors with jute twine for escapement if the trap was lost.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
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