EFP for the select few

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  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,281 AG
    edited June 1 #32
    Good evening, Bob.

    I'm sure you get a great deal of enjoyment documenting all those offshore experiences -- the comments and smiles and fish all speak for themselves.  Nobody is suggesting otherwise, so let's agree to disagree on that topic and the EDF argument and just move on.

    I'm no Captain Buswell, that's for sure, but I've spent more nights under the bridges over the past 20 years than I care to admit, and, as many people around this forum will tell you, I'm happy to talk about that until my fingers grow tired.  However, I'm sorry to report the scallops are long gone from the CCC and the tarpon have also become very wise to the pilings (and, to make matters worse, there are many more than there used to be!).  Times change...and it's up to us to live, learn, and adapt.  Wind willing, I'll be out doing it again this weekend, because the fish I lost the weekend before last got into a piling and I owe him one.  lol

    Frankly, Bob, I'd love to focus more on these types of fishing discussion and less on threads like this.  Please consider joining us in those tarpon threads (and starting a few less of these), particularly if you want to avoid conflict and disagreement as these types of discussions inevitably result in.

    Wishing you calm seas and a safe trip...Mike

  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,654 Admiral
    well, he ain't fibbing bout a small speckled trout being great cobia bait.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,575 Captain
    Statements such as "conspiracy theorists" and "Catch Shares are way down on the list of EDF's priorities" are indicators of incredible stupidity, denial, or outright lying.

    Which is it Tarponator?
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 2,613 Captain
    Mike, I would love to join you on the tarpon threads. Where are they?
    I have not been tarpon fishing in decades. However, I remain very interested in this type of fishing. The only thing I could offer would be discussing what tarpon fishing was like 40+ years ago. Would love to know how much different it is now.  Can you still see 40-50 a night under the HF Bridge?  
    I never did a great deal of tarpon fishing. My number one targets have always been grouper, snapper, and, during the spring, king fish.  Many years ago we could sell of catches. I sold thousands of pounds of grouper for .25 cents a pound.  Often king fish sold for .10 cents a pound, when we could get that. 
    HUBBARD'S:  I stay with Hubbard's because they are so big & well known that people all over the country fish on the Florida Fisherman ll. I have lived in Tampa my entire life. Learning about different ways of life is fascinating to me. Every week I meet people from distant lands. Just returned from a 44 hour snapper trip. Could find no one on the boat that did not know me through my threads or videos. Had a complete stranger come up to me as I was leaving the boat. Said it was a great honor to meet me in person. He thanked me for doing video, said he has been following my videos for years...please keep it up!  Told him I am now 76, have a replaced hip & a very bad knee. Will do my best to continue as long as I can. Mike, the only thing more important to me than sharing is my daughter, Dee. 
    We tore the fish apart this weekend, will share all over the country.  Take a look a the video:
      
    https://youtu.be/dSBCcrefy5k 

    Hope everyone likes the video. It took 6 hours to edit & publish.
    Complete report with tons of pictures to follow. Hope to have it ready by Monday evening. Check it out in the west-central section.  
    Here is one of my dear friends. He is a family man dedicated to his wife & three sons. He will be features in my report:




  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,654 Admiral
    How many years ago was King fish .10/lb?

    Here's a trip ticket from 36 years ago.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 2,613 Captain
    Long before '82.  More like early to middle sixties. At times the market was so flooded that no one inTampa wanted king fish at any price.  Often we had to take them to Aylesworth in St.Pete to sell them at .10. 
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,281 AG
    edited June 8 #38
    Statements such as "conspiracy theorists" and "Catch Shares are way down on the list of EDF's priorities" are indicators of incredible stupidity, denial, or outright lying.

    Which is it Tarponator?
    None of the above.  They are an indication I'm not buying the crap you're selling.

    Have you seen a catch share for sale in Walmart lately?  Perhaps you might point to a recreational fishery they have been implemented in?

    Conspiracy theory, incredible stupidity, denial, and outright lying, indeed.  Or perhaps it's just self interest....

    What's your commercial interest in the gulf fishery, Thomas?
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,281 AG
    edited June 8 #39
    harbison said:
    Mike, I would love to join you on the tarpon threads. Where are they?

    Look in the West Central and Southwest forums:
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/categories/southwest-general-fishing-the-outdoors
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/categories/west-central-general-fishing-the-outdoors

    For instance, this one:
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/discussion/259085/tarpon-how-long-are-they-gone#latest

    Or this one:
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/discussion/258608/165-pound-tarpon-caught-on-a-broken-rod#latest

    Or this one:
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/discussion/258212/when-live-baiting-for-tarpon-what-size-hook-do-you-use#latest

    harbison said:
    I have not been tarpon fishing in decades. However, I remain very interested in this type of fishing. The only thing I could offer would be discussing what tarpon fishing was like 40+ years ago. Would love to know how much different it is now.  Can you still see 40-50 a night under the HF Bridge?  

    It's very different, yet I'm sure in many ways it's the same.  There aren't as many tarpon in the bay as there used to be, and the ones that are around tend to be much more wary.  Yes, you can see that many fish in a night still.  They still move along the shadow line and eat the same way as they used to.

    Take care...Mike
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 2,613 Captain
    Thanks!  Sounds interesting as heck, I miss it!  When I fished the HF there was only one bridge there. My favorite spot was about 1/2 way to the hump on the Tampa side. That 40-50 a night was only under ideal conditions... calm with a fast moving tide. On a slow tide we saw only cat fish.  
    Around Davis Islands:  Slow fishing.  In the early morning you could see hundreds rolling in all directions, but we had few takers. Liked the action under the HF much better. 
    Fished some at night under the Clearwater Pass bridge. It was good, but we never jumped the amount we did at the Franklin. 
    Now, at 76 and 1/2 crippled, I can no longer do the thing I once did.  That's the # one reason I use Hubbard's and Two Guys & A Hog.  I love being on the water & in the field so much. Given the choice I would much rather do it on my own. I did until age caught up with me. 
    Just got back from a 39 hour Middle Grounds & beyond trip. To say we did well would be an understatement. Catch my very detailed report in the West Central section entitled, 'A Huge Florida Catch'.
    Here is a preview
    Take care!  Hope you guys enjoy tarpon fishing as much as I did.  Bob H. 
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,575 Captain
    Statements such as "conspiracy theorists" and "Catch Shares are way down on the list of EDF's priorities" are indicators of incredible stupidity, denial, or outright lying.

    Which is it Tarponator?
    None of the above.  They are an indication I'm not buying the crap you're selling.

    Have you seen a catch share for sale in Walmart lately?  Perhaps you might point to a recreational fishery they have been implemented in?

    Conspiracy theory, incredible stupidity, denial, and outright lying, indeed.  Or perhaps it's just self interest....

    What's your commercial interest in the gulf fishery, Thomas?
    Alaskan charter halibut fishery - the only other fishery in the US operating under Sector Separation.  Many charter outfits don’t have enough fish to take their customers fishing due to NMFS cutting their quotas, so they lease their fish from the local Sea Lord at $7/pound.  Using Commercial Catch Shares for recreational charter operations.

    The preferred option at Gulf Council for AMs 41 and 42 are Permit Fishing Quotas and Individual Fishing Quotas for the Gulf charter and headboats.  In case you didn’t know, those are Catch Shares.

    My interest lies in my right as an American citizen to voice my 1st Amendment rights against this hostile takeover of our fisheries by commercial/enviro interests, at the DIRECT expense of EVERY American.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,281 AG
    So, you mean catch shares have been used to convert commercial shares into recreational take in Alaska?  Kind of like Hubbard's and red snapper?  You don't say.  lol  Sounds like the good use of the resource to me.  Alas, you still can't buy catch shares in Walmart or prove the EDF is the bogeyman, as much as CFH/41/42 might irk you, it still ain't recreational catch shares like you and Bob and the rest of the fear mongers would have everyone believe....and everyone knows it.

    Moving on.... I'm sure you have interest in all those things -- your right to voice your 1st Amendment rights in a forum where that doesn't mean anything, along with the rest of your fears.  Just like I'm sure Bob's interested in all those people catching fish on Hubbard's.  However, that doesn't change his financial arrangement with them any more than it does for your offshore chart business.

    But it might explain, at least in part, your interest in this topic and why someone from Texas might frequent a Florida fishing site and be so vocal about it.

    In case anyone coming to this discussion were wondering, of course.

    Take care...Mike


  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,575 Captain
    edited June 14 #43
    Hubbard's ain't using commercial quota for their headboat trips, fool.

    Just because AMs 41 and 42 haven't been approved (yet), Catch Shares ARE the preferred alternative for the Gulf Council no matter how hard you try to downplay it, fool.

    I have a vocal presence across the Gulf, Eastern Seaboad, Mexico, Caribbean, Central and South America - what's your point about me being from Texas, fool?

    What is your affiliation with EDF?  I don't know one single legit recreational fishermen who supports their deception and thievery - it's interesting that you do - head in the sand in regards to Catch Shares and attacking those in opposition to Catch Shares.   Hmmm.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,654 Admiral


    I have a vocal presence across the Gulf, Eastern Seaboad, Mexico, Caribbean, Central and South America - what's your point about me being from Texas, fool?
    That statement brought back a memory..
    Lol, I remember several council members refer to you as a blustering blowhard some years back.

    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,575 Captain
    Yep - the ones currently working for Gulf Seafood Institute and Share The Gulf.   Funny how that works.   Speaking of which, how is your old buddy Bob Gill?
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 2,613 Captain
    edited June 15 #46
    Here we go again
    "Alas, you still can't buy catch shares in Walmart or prove the EDF is the bogeyman
    Catch shares / EDF / Walmart .    it still ain't recreational catch shares like you and Bob and the rest of the fear mongers would have everyone believe....and everyone knows it."

    the concept of catch shares for the recreational sector.   What everyone 'should' know! 

       Think Walmart  & EDF are not involved? Think again!  Between 2009 and 2014 the Walton Family Foundation, Walmart, donated more than $50 million to the EDF to be dedicated to catch shares. Walmart does nothing without a profit motive.  
    What EDF really wants is to privatize the entire industry
    EDF documents examined by AL.com make plain that the organization has envisioned spreading catch shares to people fishing for pleasure since at least 2009. That year, internal reports touting EDF's accomplishments state that the organization's work in the Gulf "will form the foundation for a for-hire IFQ and harvest tags for private anglers." 'PRIVATE ANGLERS'  That's you & me! 
    While EDF officials tried to distance themselves from the idea of recreational harvest tags in a recent interview, state officials in Alabama say the group actively lobbied for such tags in private meetings with regulators. When pressed, EDF officials said harvest tags are one of several options for the recreational fishery, which they described as "out of control and very poorly known and very poorly managed."  What EDF really wants is to privatize the entire industry said Daniel Pauly, a professor at the University of British Columbia and one of the world's preeminent fisheries scientists."Normally environmental groups and NGOs are for the little guy, but here, the EDF people are siding with the big guys, the corporate interests that want to own and privatize our fisheries," Pauly said. "It makes EDF very strange in the world of environmental groups. But then they are being funded by Walmart."  Sam Rawlings Walton, grandson of the founder of Walmart, sits on the EDF board. The Walton Family Foundation, the family's non-profit arm, donated more than $50 million to EDF between 2009 and 2014. The foundation's IRS 990 forms describe that money as dedicated to "catch shares."  Everyone deserves to know that!
    Indeed the record for catch shares versus simple catch limits is inconclusive at best. There were 98 fisheries classed as "overfished" in 1999, and five fisheries approaching "an overfishing condition" according to the fishery service's report to congress that year. In the 2015 report to congress,  just 38 fisheries are considered overfished. Of the 60 fisheries no longer listed as overfished, 16 were managed under catch shares. The rest recovered due to limits on how many fish could be caught each year, or were removed from the list because scientists were unsure of the status of the stock.

     "you still can't buy catch shares in Walmart or prove the EDF is the bogeyman"
         
          That's today...  What about tomorrow? 

    The Walton Family Foundation, (Walmart) the family's non-profit arm, donated more than $50 million to EDF between 2009 and 2014. The foundation's IRS 990 forms describe that money as dedicated to "catch shares." 
    EDF documents examined by AL.com make plain that the organization has envisioned spreading catch shares to people fishing for pleasure since at least 2009.

    " head in the sand in regards to Catch Shares and attacking those in opposition to Catch Shares.   Hmmm."

                Makes one wonder...  WHY?  
       

  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,654 Admiral
    Yep - the ones currently working for Gulf Seafood Institute and Share The Gulf.   Funny how that works.   Speaking of which, how is your old buddy Bob Gill?
    He's good.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 2,613 Captain
    edited June 15 #48
    Headed to the Florida Middle Grounds for another weekend of fabulous Florida fishing, fishing with, thanks to people like Tom Hilton & Dylan Hubbard, NO CATCH SHARES!  Let's keep it that way! Available, sustainable, stocks should be available to one & all. Limited access (catch shares, Head Boat Collaborative Program, etc), just does not cut it. 
    Last weekend's catch:


  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,281 AG

    Hubbard's ain't using commercial quota for their headboat trips, fool.

    Just because AMs 41 and 42 haven't been approved (yet), Catch Shares ARE the preferred alternative for the Gulf Council no matter how hard you try to downplay it, fool.

    I have a vocal presence across the Gulf, Eastern Seaboad, Mexico, Caribbean, Central and South America - what's your point about me being from Texas, fool?

    What is your affiliation with EDF?  I don't know one single legit recreational fishermen who supports their deception and thievery - it's interesting that you do - head in the sand in regards to Catch Shares and attacking those in opposition to Catch Shares.   Hmmm.
    Hi Tom,  

    In your rush to call me names, it appears as if you missed the words "kind of" when I was talking of Hubbard's.  

    Since you seem a bit confused about me, let me help:  I have no affiliation whatsoever with EDF, nor do I support them in any way.  It might come as a surprise to you that I have financially supported the CCA and the RFA in year's gone by.  However, I just don't believe the outright lies and/or conspiracy theory you and others (almost without exception with your hands out at the same time) are spreading. In short, I'm simply a concerned recreational fisherman....and, unlike you, I have no commercial interest whatsoever.

    And perhaps you might point out where I've supported "their deception and thievery".  To the contrary, I have stated my objection to certain parts of catch shares (for instance, how they are allocated in perpetuity) on this very forum more than once.   Of course, you cannot point out where I've supported any of the groups or things you seem to think I have, and I hope the response above has helped clear up your confusion on the topic.

    Moving on, my point of you being from Texas was already stated -- and your commercial interests suggest your "vocal" interest may be, at least in part, be self-interest.  To support this, that you seem to avoid the question speaks volumes and leaves at least some of us wondering what's in it for you: 

    You know, like these websites and the underlying business you apparently own:
       http://hiltonsoffshore.com/
       http://www.realtime-navigator.com/

    Now, since I have answered your questions, kindly answer mine:  Tell us, Tom, did your vocal presence here or elsewhere predate your commercial interest or visa versa?  How long have you been in the business of selling offshore data/charts to tournament fishermen (and others)?

    Hmmmm, indeed...Mike
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,575 Captain
    edited June 15 #50
    Tarponator, please point out my outright lies.

    i put my name behind what I say and I stand behind my statements.

    Its no secret who i am or what businesses I own.  I also own Atlantis Marine Habitats where we have placed almost 4.000 artificial reefs in offshore waters in the last 2 years.
    www.AtlantisMarineHabitats.com

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