• SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    It was probably someone believing the "BS" of the saying that makes me cringe the most when it comes to shooting...."brush busting" ...that put those round balls into that deer and didn't kill it....or at long range when the pattern spread out.....and each pellet looses it's velocity and energy at an alarming rate.

    At the muzzle.... a oo buckshot load holding 9 pellets traveling at 1325 FPS with each ball having 233.86foot pounds of energy..... weighing 60 grains @.

    ...at 100 yards the pellets would be going around 650 FPS and would have 56.279 foot pounds of energy....

    The problem is that at 100 yards....the chances of dropping something are slim......
    On Wednesday, 1/25/2017...Florida Sportsman "Big Kahunna"......"Triple Threat 33T" gave his "official word"...and greasy thumb print...by saying....."Here's your written rules Schmidty, No Politics in OT. You're welcome."

    ...and with that history was made...:)
  • red owlred owl Posts: 639 Officer
    I never thought I would get such a big response when I started this thread. It seems to me that buckshot is most appropriate for hunting deer with dogs where the shooting might be only 30 yards or so. The deer may be running and hitting game on the run might be easier with a shotgun if you are already a wing shooter. If the deer runs a distance but dogs are being used, the dogs still find the deer. Once you start dealing with a solo hunter still hunting, the shooting distance starts expanding to 50- 60-70 ranges and the patterns open up so wide that only a pellet or two hits a non-vital area and the animal just runs off. The only other good application for buckshot might be a tree stand in a dense area- more a bow hunting area where the shots are 15-30 yards. The deer might hang up and a rifle bullet might deflect while buckshot (or most of the load) gets through the under brush.
    If you had a bow and took a 150 yard shot at a deer- highly unethical but if the arrow hit- probably still kill the deer but that doesn't make a bow a 150 yard weapon for deer hunting.
    Almost ALL hunters I know who have used buckshot, NONE of them (I must hang with the wrong crowd) have really gone out and spent some serious time patterning loads. I think that is the real deal. You have to find a load/choke combination that keeps the pellets together and know at what range you can confidently put about 5 pellets into the vitals on a deer.
  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    "red owl"....

    I believe that you did many people a great service with is thread ...or maybe a greater service to animals.....

    Either some people don't have any idea what ballistics are or they just make them up as they go along as to what it takes to kill something with...

    Would anyone go deer hunting with a 32 acp? I don't believe so and I also believe that those who have touted the extreme range of knockdown power of OO buck coming out of a 12 gauge at 100 yards wouldn't consider this tiny pistol round as effective .

    A typical 32 acp has around 130 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle....and a pellet of OO at 100 yards has about 56....and the chances of hitting a deer in a lethal spot with a scattergun with OO at 100 yards is about a "crap shoot" at best.

    And would anyone really want to shoot a deer with something so small moving at 650 feet per second?

    I know I wouldn't....
    On Wednesday, 1/25/2017...Florida Sportsman "Big Kahunna"......"Triple Threat 33T" gave his "official word"...and greasy thumb print...by saying....."Here's your written rules Schmidty, No Politics in OT. You're welcome."

    ...and with that history was made...:)
  • red owlred owl Posts: 639 Officer
    Well one thing this thread has taught me is that buckshot is at its best when using deer dogs. In this type of hunting there are dogs off in the woods and multiple hunters. Using a 30-06 to blast away at a running buck may not be wise....so buckshot is used. The other aspect of this type of hunting is you are relying on dogs to drive bedded deer out of thickets- so the range is short. There is a fair amount of shooting at 20-30 yards. To be effective multiple shots are often required and if the deer runs off- VOILA you have dogs to track it down and recover it.
    Another practical use is from a tree stand in what I would call an "archery" area- very short range. I suspect that in that situation the hunter might only have a shotgun so that is what is used.
    There is a HUGE amount of misconceptions. I was at a national retailer- I won't mention the name- but the sales clerk was saying that such and such a round held more pellets so you had a better chance of hitting the deer. No idea at all on pattern various loads or how many pellets you may need to hit a deer. I've spoken to a lot of local buddies that use buckshot- mixed reviews but NONE have ever spent much time patterning the loads and personally I think I am being told "stories". One guy said he killed a buck at 100 yards using a 410 with buckshot.
    I said that the 410 only held 3 pellets in No.00- how many hit the deer?
    He said one, one was plenty.
    I asked at 100 yards how high did he hold the shot.
    None, he said- aimed right for it.
    And so it goes.... The misuse of buckshot is the problem. I don't know how many of you have seen the "hog" you-tube. Guy shooting at a HUGE hog probably 70 yards off. If you are doing THAT I'd bet the farm he guy never even bothered to pattern the gun. How many pellets are going to be on target at 70 yards? Some cheap buckshot loads can't give a decent pattern at 25 yards. But the guy is claiming buckshot is "worthless" in the hog video.
    So...nothing wrong with buckshot but you have to do a lot of test firing in order to find a load worth using and then know the range at which that load is reliable.
    Sure- you can pot shot and the pellets have to go somewhere- might hit the brain and kill a deer at a long range but that proves nothing. Some of the close range shots however are very devastating. Buckshot is really a "special situation" type choice.
    One of the best things to come from this thread is real world experience. I wanted to know how many pellets hitting a vital area like the lungs would reliably take a deer. At around 30 yards it seems 3 pellets in the lungs works on FLORIDA deer which are thin skinned. And...even though 3 will work most deer are hit with about 5 pellets. Now if you figure a 12 gauge case traditionally holds 9 pellets you need half the load hitting a pie plate sized target. That is in many instances a tighter pattern than you might want for quail, etc. So a tight cluster of pellets is needed.
    BUT with the tight cluster of pellets, hitting a buck bounding up and down through thick cover- you need to be a pretty good wing shot so skill is needed.
    As I said- a special situation load.
  • swampwalkerswampwalker Posts: 1,268 Officer
    Your on target with this post redowl! I hear the samebuckshot speil of 100 yd kills routinely. I also hear of a lot of misses. I prefer dlugs up clse for deer when rifles are not legal. Thx
    The original - "Renaissance Redneck"
  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    I have patterned buckshot loads many times in the past...but the best advise I ever got about it was from a guy who lived in the mountains in "WV" and he killed more deer than you can shake a stick at..

    He told me that only a fool would ever shoot at a deer with buckshot farther than 30 yards ....and only a fool shot at a deer with that stuff unless he's aiming right at it's head.

    He killed so many deer that way...who am I to argue?
    On Wednesday, 1/25/2017...Florida Sportsman "Big Kahunna"......"Triple Threat 33T" gave his "official word"...and greasy thumb print...by saying....."Here's your written rules Schmidty, No Politics in OT. You're welcome."

    ...and with that history was made...:)
  • thatredneckguyjamiethatredneckguyjamie Posts: 169 Deckhand
    Buckshot has it's place...and I've killed a lot of deer with it over the years...#1 buck out of a turkey choke on a Remington 870 has a real tight pattern out past 50 yards. I have shot at deer past 50 yards and hit them, knocked them down, slowed them down...but never had one drop right there that was past 35 yards or so. Even dog hunting I prefer a rifle, know where you're shooting and know what's on the other side of where you're shooting. Buckshot, rifle, pistol, or cannon safety has to come first
  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    Buckshot like any shot coming out if a shotgun kills by pattern.

    I know of absolutely no one who would consider going deer hunting with .32 ACP pistol....simply because of no knockdown power even if you hit something in the heart with it at 50 yards.

    A piece of buckshot at 50 yards is no different...but if you could hit a deer with 8 simultaneously...that is a horse of a different color.
    On Wednesday, 1/25/2017...Florida Sportsman "Big Kahunna"......"Triple Threat 33T" gave his "official word"...and greasy thumb print...by saying....."Here's your written rules Schmidty, No Politics in OT. You're welcome."

    ...and with that history was made...:)
  • doghunterdoghunter Posts: 400 Deckhand
    Interesting you mention the 410 shotgun and buckshot. I played with one when my kids were starting to hunt. The 2.5" shell holds 3 000 pellets and the 3" shell holds 5 000 pellets. I don't remember the exact meassurements of the patterns or at what range, but both loads shot extremely tight. My guess is because they are stacked in a straight line. The 3" load was putting all 5 pellets in very tight cluster. Again, I don't really remember the range, but I'm sure it was at least 30 yards. Now I'm not saying the 410 is a deer gun, but I've seen folks shoot 12 gauge guns that won't do that. The pellets aren't any slower either.
  • thatredneckguyjamiethatredneckguyjamie Posts: 169 Deckhand
    .410 will kill a deer graveyard dead..but then again so will a .22 :)
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 2,868 Moderator
    From what I've seen the 410 loads also carry the same velocity (maybe more) as a 12ga. If someone can get lucky with one pellet out of a 12ga. I guess the same can happen with a 410 at the same distance.
  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    .410 will kill a deer graveyard dead..but then again so will a .22 :)

    Sure it will....

    The only problem is that with the.410 you can not guarantee where the pellets are going and with the .22 you can put one in the center of his pupil....
    On Wednesday, 1/25/2017...Florida Sportsman "Big Kahunna"......"Triple Threat 33T" gave his "official word"...and greasy thumb print...by saying....."Here's your written rules Schmidty, No Politics in OT. You're welcome."

    ...and with that history was made...:)
  • JIMinPBJIMinPB Posts: 1,875 Captain
    I did extensive research with handloading buckshot in .410 about 6 or 8 years ago. I was surprised to find that the shot pancaked quite a bit, with the rearmost pellet pancaking the most. The effect was pronounced enough that it cut the petals off of the wad. Even when I upped my antimony content & heat treated the shot to more than 20 brinell, I still had problems with pancaking. Much to my amazement, the pancakes flew pretty well at modest ranges. The biggest problem with buckshot in a .410, is that unless you run 3 balls in a long (3") hull, you don't have room for any real padding. Most modern .410 wads are just a single layer of polyethylene between the first ball & the powder.
  • RockslamRockslam Posts: 71 Greenhorn
    I've used a .410 once on deer with the 000 load. at 15 yds broadside one pellet hit skull, one hit base of neck and last hit the rear ham. Would never use that again unless it was survival situation, too many other more reliable options available.

    Edit : forgot to state was aiming chest.
  • DavemDavem Posts: 3 Greenhorn
    All shotgun gauges propel the pellets at about the same velocity. The difference is the greater number of pellets in the larger gauges. A 000 from a 410 in the brain kills the same as a 000 from a 10 magnum.
    Still, with just a couple of pellets, you have to be very confident of where they group and it seems the range would have to be close, not because of velocity but pellet spread.
  • RMcRMc Posts: 3 Greenhorn
    Those who have complained about poor penetration with small pellet buckshot like 000B and 00B, ought to try bigger buckshot!

    Consider that factory swaged 00B pellets weigh in at 50 grains and Dixie TriBall buckshot, made in Florida, run 315 grains per hard cast pellet. My Remington Express fires 3 to 4 inch patterns to the point of aim at 40 yards with a 26 inch vent rib/bead sight barrel and a Briley extended full choke tube.
  • red owlred owl Posts: 639 Officer
    I think I read recently a hunter was killed with a single pellet hitting him at 100 yards. If true, sort of a freak accident. In the woods I hunt the only time I'll see a deer at 70 yards is along a trail, often while walking into a stand. We have talked a lot on this issue and I am sort of coming to the opinion buckshot works great with dogs and very short range, running shots. I think this may be because a lot of hunters are experienced with shooting birds on the wing and swing a shotgun better than a rifle. The load of buckshot also insures most pellets hit the deer even if underbrush deflects a pellet or two. Buckshot is often argued as safer around dogs however that man killed at 100 yards has me re-thinking that. A lot of dog hunts have the shooters in know positions which helps reduce the chance of an accidental shooting.
    Once again, a lot of this type shooting is only at 25 yards or so. The whole load of pellets ought to hit a small area.
  • doghunterdoghunter Posts: 400 Deckhand
    I've dog hunted with a shotgun and buckshot my entire life. I'm not sure I buy into the "buckshot is safer" idea. I've seen several deer killed at longer ranges than buckshot is supposed to be lethal. When dog hunting, or any type of hunting that involves other people, you have to really trust those folks not to take unsafe shots toward people or dogs.

    If I'm sitting in a stand I use a rifle, mainly because I equip mine with pretty decent scopes. The help me a lot right at dark, and that's when I get most of my opportunities.

    When running dogs, I use a shotgun. Imo, if your shotgun shoots tight, 25 yards and down, it might as well be a rifle. A single bullet or a palm sized pattern is about the same. At 30-60 yards, the shotgun has the advantage (assuming work has been put in to find a gun that will throw a good 60 yard pattern). At 60 yards and up, the rifle has a sure advantage. You just have to ask yourself where you get most of your opportunities. For me, that seems to be at 40-50 yards.
  • lilwoodylilwoody Posts: 1,045 Officer
    I think I posted that a few years back. We retrieved the deer in the mountains of NC for one of my friends elderly neighbor. He claimed it was a hundred yard shot. The deer had no visible wound but when skinned it was hit in the neck with one pellet and the old fella said he was "aiming at the critters middle". The gentleman passed away last year just before season started.
    "Those who will trade freedom for security will have neither".
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