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Why are commercial boats allowed to **** the gulf?

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  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    I'll take this one opportunity to make an important point.

    Everyone understands that the measurement of the rec catch is not accurate. There is no point in posting TAC when they can't count the rec catch with any reliability. For recs, the reality is nine days, while other sectors are being allocated the benefits of the rebound in Red Snapper.

    But again, you just pointed that out early today. Your circular logic is never ending. Type on!
    Called accountability..

    Got an idea or system to help yourself??

    Please share.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Called accountability..

    Got an idea or system to help yourself??

    Please share.

    Yes! Starts with state management of ARS like every other gulf species. Second, outlaw the unconstitutional sector separation perpetrated by the Gulf Council. Then on to a more accurate estimate of the rec catch (which admittedly, is not an easy fix).
  • HighTidesDrifterHighTidesDrifter Posts: 105 Officer
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    HighTidesDrifter,

    We rec guys have a difficult time sharing a common voice. We turn out poorly at gulf council meetings. Do you really believe that fisheries management has zero merit?

    I believe that fisheries management is extremely important, just as I believe that all wildlife management is important as well. But let's just say we doubled or even tripled the current dollar amount we spend on management and therefore increase our grouper and snapper stocks by 30, 40, or even 50 percent. Is it going to benefit we the recreational fishermen as much as the commercials? The fact of the matter is that the commercials and the myriad of people/businesses who have a vested interest in them as well, are going to do everything they can to make sure that their cash cow is protected not just now but for the future as well. Can we really blame them for this? I don't believe we can because it's just in our human nature to behave this way. Let's face it. There's a lot of money at stake here. As another poster has already briefly mentioned, at the end of the day it all comes down to one question. Do we want our kids and future generations growing up believing that all food comes in packages at a grocery store or prepared at a restaurant? I hope I'm not naive in thinking that most people would like to pass on to their kids the sport of fishing and the values that go along with it such as the satisfaction in eating something you caught with all the preparation that went into it, being a good sportsman, courtesy to other fisherman, teaching to be good stewards and conservationists of the resource we all cherish, and so on and so on. Values and skills that will serve them well later in life. Just imagine the resurgence of people who would buy offshore boats (myself included), charter boats going back into business, and more tourists coming here to fish if we did the right thing and ban commercial fishing for grouper and snapper. I believe what would follow would be an economic boom for Florida.

    No species of animal on land or in water which requires seasons/bag limits should be harvested commercially.
    Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    "The main vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the equal distribution of misery." -Winston Churchill
  • aboveboredabovebored Posts: 1,288 Officer
    Just imagine the resurgence of people who would buy offshore boats (myself included), charter boats going back into business, and more tourists coming here to fish

    No thanks.
  • Funny to see YFT discussed on this thread. Fact is the US is a small player in overall YFT catches.

    Why do we have no YFT? Its because we have a giant fleet of super seiners off the West coast of Africa netting thousands of tons of juvenile YFT each year.

    Its not the US commercial fleet, recreational fleet or any other thing except the above!
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    Funny to see YFT discussed on this thread. Fact is the US is a small player in overall YFT catches.

    Why do we have no YFT? Its because we have a giant fleet of super seiners off the West coast of Africa netting thousands of tons of juvenile YFT each year.

    Its not the US commercial fleet, recreational fleet or any other thing except the above!
    Please, don't let facts get in the way of a good troll..

    or ignorance.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    So cut the commercials out and without proper accounting of the rec catch you'll get maybe 10 more days...lol

    That's assuming that the current, broken federal fisheries management system remains in place. There has been a change in the presidency, and hopefully soon the NMFS/EDF/Gulf Council will be fired for their incompetency/corruption and the management of our Gulf fisheries (both recreational AND commercial) will be in the hands of the 5 states fisheries management commissions.
  • HighTidesDrifterHighTidesDrifter Posts: 105 Officer
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    In 25 years of gulf offshore fishing, I have never seen fish stocks as high as they are right now. Gag, Mango, and Cobia are particularly more plentiful than when I started all those years ago. There are stacks of ARS in shallower depths than I have ever seen. And we all thank the conservation efforts that lead to the current stock. But what we are seeing now is redistribution.

    There are some "nice guy rec fisherman" that post here regularly that feel that the commercial fisherman will work with us to solve our issues. The commercial side has some very smart and influential leadership. They have a list of well defined and often repeated talking points. The intention of these talking points is not to give the rec guys more share. The main effort is to lull you into a false sense of cooperation.

    Here is one of those guys. Buddy got his 20% of the total Red Snapper commercial catch gifted to him by the federal government. Is it a surprise that he is against state management?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH-G4WWtk3s

    Buddy says in the video that they are working along with the federal govt to come up with an accurate way for recreationals to measure their catch. "The one thing yet to be solved". If any of us "nice guy rec fishermen" really believe he or anyone on the commercial side is actually doing this, then I'm sure Buddy would have some ocean front property in Arizona he would just love to sell us too. Is he really going to want any of us messing with his precious cash cow?
    Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    "The main vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the equal distribution of misery." -Winston Churchill
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    Buddy says in the video that they are working along with the federal govt to come up with an accurate way for recreationals to measure their catch. "The one thing yet to be solved". If any of us "nice guy rec fishermen" really believe he or anyone on the commercial side is actually doing this, then I'm sure Buddy would have some ocean front property in Arizona he would just love to sell us too. Is he really going to want any of us messing with his precious cash cow?

    Right On Drifter! That's my take too. I think it's funny that they have him running his party lines in front of a working boat. Despite appearances, he has not been on a boat like that in a very long time. You are much more likely to find him on his Intrepid cuddy.

    Don't get me wrong, smart and hard working. I admire the business ethic. As long as we hear the words for what they are. Protecting his federally gifted cow is right. It's an insult to capitalism disguised by lines like, "We are the ones protecting the oceans" and "If it were not for us the poor people would not have access to Red Snapper".
  • navigator2navigator2 Posts: 22,511 AG
    Don't have a clue, I've never gotten a lure wet in my life. :rotflmao. They were very recently talking about raising the bag limit in the SW region to two fish which could very easily be done right now. As our soon-to-be Commander in Chief would say, the redfish schools around here right now are "hyuuuuge"!

    Oy vey. The FWC commissioners should be strung up for reducing the daily bag in the NW sector this past June. This is what happens when politics gets put in charge of fisheries management. EFF CCA! They lost their way 20 years ago.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • somemermaidsomemermaid Posts: 2 Greenhorn
    you've GOT to be kidding, he believes in NO regulations for ANYTHING!
  • FletchFletch Merritt Island, FLPosts: 2,461 Moderator
    Buddy says in the video that they are working along with the federal govt to come up with an accurate way for recreationals to measure their catch. "The one thing yet to be solved". If any of us "nice guy rec fishermen" really believe he or anyone on the commercial side is actually doing this, then I'm sure Buddy would have some ocean front property in Arizona he would just love to sell us too. Is he really going to want any of us messing with his precious cash cow?

    I don't follow Gulf issues as much as I fish nearly exclusively on the Atlantic side. But I can tell you that over here, the commercial folks would love to see an accurate measure of recreational catch (all species but particularly ARS) as would myself and pretty much all of my charter/recreational friends. When it comes to snapper, we all know they are overestimating discard mortality and therefore overestimating recreational "harvest". And, they're targeting "recovery" to a historical biomass that is ludicrously high. With zero harvest by recs, charter and commercial interests, NONE of us have ANY input into the management process. They control the formulation of the regression model and all of its assumptions. THEY set the mortality "discard" rate (a word we all hate as we release fish - we do not discard them). THEY formulated the estimation of the historical biomass (age/average size is highly debatable and would radically alter the historical biomass estimation). THEY set the targets such as SPR and desired biomass that are to be achieved. THEY provide ALL of the inputs to the model as they are the only ones currently harvesting ARS. THEY even chose the organization - the Center for Independent Experts (comprised of 70+% foreigners) - that "validated" their model.

    Oh, they'll let us get up and speak for a few minutes at an occasional meeting but nothing ever comes of it. I've been to a ton of these meetings and pretty much every commercial, rec or charter person I ever spoke to wanted the same thing - a system that estimates recreational/charter fish population that is inline with our anecdotal observations. I know that some of the wholesale seafood dealers are also tracking size (even otoliths in the past) of some species of commercial fish so that an accurate length/weight/age/quantity criteria can be established. Hopefully, this will lead to a more realistic estimation of historical biomass.

    We all know these things would benefit all of us in the end.
    "Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent, I'll probably waste..."
    -- Tug McGraw on getting a raise

    Get Down Fishing Charters - Port Canaveral, Florida
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    Fletch wrote: »
    I don't follow Gulf issues as much as I fish nearly exclusively on the Atlantic side. But I can tell you that over here, the commercial folks would love to see an accurate measure of recreational catch (all species but particularly ARS) as would myself and pretty much all of my charter/recreational friends. When it comes to snapper, we all know they are overestimating discard mortality and therefore overestimating recreational "harvest". And, they're targeting "recovery" to a historical biomass that is ludicrously high. With zero harvest by recs, charter and commercial interests, NONE of us have ANY input into the management process. They control the formulation of the regression model and all of its assumptions. THEY set the mortality "discard" rate (a word we all hate as we release fish - we do not discard them). THEY formulated the estimation of the historical biomass (age/average size is highly debatable and would radically alter the historical biomass estimation). THEY set the targets such as SPR and desired biomass that are to be achieved. THEY provide ALL of the inputs to the model as they are the only ones currently harvesting ARS. THEY even chose the organization - the Center for Independent Experts (comprised of 70+% foreigners) - that "validated" their model.

    Oh, they'll let us get up and speak for a few minutes at an occasional meeting but nothing ever comes of it. I've been to a ton of these meetings and pretty much every commercial, rec or charter person I ever spoke to wanted the same thing - a system that estimates recreational/charter fish population that is inline with our anecdotal observations. I know that some of the wholesale seafood dealers are also tracking size (even otoliths in the past) of some species of commercial fish so that an accurate length/weight/age/quantity criteria can be established. Hopefully, this will lead to a more realistic estimation of historical biomass.

    We all know these things would benefit all of us in the end.


    If you know the discard mortality is overestimated. Please tell me what the discard mortality percentage is?
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    Gulf enviro/commercial interests are pushing fish tags for the private recs as an accurate measure of catch but NOT for the recreational anglers who choose to fish on for-hire boats. Hmmmmm.

    Fish tags will do nothing but restrict private rec harvest to a fraction of true historical levels (MAYBE 1 fish per YEAR per person). Ridiculous.
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Gulf enviro/commercial interests are pushing fish tags for the private recs as an accurate measure of catch but NOT for the recreational anglers who choose to fish on for-hire boats. Hmmmmm.

    Fish tags will do nothing but restrict private rec harvest to a fraction of true historical levels (MAYBE 1 fish per YEAR per person). Ridiculous.

    Texas Tom For hire boats are going to be required to report every Red Snapper they catch, but you already know that. You just want to take acess to Red Snapper from Florida fisherman and give it to Texas Fisherman.
  • FletchFletch Merritt Island, FLPosts: 2,461 Moderator
    notreely wrote: »
    If you know the discard mortality is overestimated. Please tell me what the discard mortality percentage is?

    Vague question... Are you asking me what THEY say it is or what I think it is?
    "Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent, I'll probably waste..."
    -- Tug McGraw on getting a raise

    Get Down Fishing Charters - Port Canaveral, Florida
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    Fletch wrote: »
    Vague question... Are you asking me what THEY say it is or what I think it is?

    Not reely a vague question, if you know what they (who ever you think they are) say the discard mortality numbers are and don't agree with those numbers. You must have a number you think is correct.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    notreely wrote: »
    Texas Tom For hire boats are going to be required to report every Red Snapper they catch, but you already know that. You just want to take acess to Red Snapper from Florida fisherman and give it to Texas Fisherman.

    Incorrect. Since NMFS controls the allocation numbers, ALL charterboats (and more importantly - their CUSTOMERS) will be deprived of their historical access to the fish regardless of whether they go to PFQs/IFQs or not, but ESPECIALLY if they do go to PFQs/IFQs. But, Gary Jarvis and Co. don't have an issue with the drastic reduction in access for the for-hire CUSTOMERS if they go to PFQs/IFQs since that will be considered collateral damage necessary to transfer ownership of our fish to the for-hire corporations.

    And, if they are so WRONG with a relatively small, known number of for-hire boats, just how WRONG are they relative to the relatively large, unknown number of private rec boats? I submit catastrophically WRONG.

    AND, when they start the mandatory reporting, the Texas charterboat info will have a relatively large impact and the other states' landings % will be LESS because of this mandatory reporting.

    There are 67 Gulf headboats that catch red snapper. Guess what? They STILL do not have the landings data for the 2016 headboat red snapper landings. Why? How hard can it be to count the fish on 67 boats in a 44 day season? Here we are, 7 months AFTER the season has ended and they still do NOT have the landings data. This is after they gave these same 67 headboats 400% access (44 days) that the private recs got (11 days) when HISTORICALLY they have accounted for 14% of the landings. To add insult to injusry, they are indicating that the headboats UNDERFISHED their quota in 2016. Makes no sense whatsoever.

    I would like to see ALL Florida fishermen fish as MUCH as their biomass/ecosystems will SUSTAIN. It really shouldn't impact Texas fishermen or any other states' fishermen what Florida fishermen do, or vice versa. The problem is that the Gulf red snapper is being managed as one unit when there is no biological, scientific, or economic rationale for doing so - the effort/biomass off of Florida is entirely different than that off of Texas. Why are they being managed with the same rules? Right now, the western Gulf is subsidizing the eastern Gulf's fishing - that is not disputed.

    Look at who is pushing for fish tags for the private recs - it is the enviro-funded for-hire and commercial folks. What part of sector separation do y'all not get? It's really NONE of your business anymore.

    If fish tags are such a great idea, who not use them across the board, including for-hire boat customers? That's because the for-hire corporations do not want their customers to CONTROL the tags - the for-hire corporations must CONTROL the tags in order to apply the associated "ownership" value of those tags to their permits. They must CONTROL the tags so they can dictate how many snapper each of their customers can take home each trip, if any. They are in the business of selling trips, so they can run more trips by controlling their customers' take each trip. They must CONTROL the tags so that they would have the opportunity to charge $25/tag to keep a red snapper in addition to the charter price like some headboats in the HB EFP were doing.

    Since the NMFS controls the data, the number of fish tags printed and issued will fall FAR short of reality - 422,000 tags isn't enough for even each Florida recreational fisherman to get 1 tag/year (and that is based on 2016 numbers - the numbers should be even less this year due to supposed overfishing of the quota by the private recs.). The rest of the Gulf recreational red snapper fishermen will be PROHIBITED from retaining even 1 red snapper PER YEAR. How is that the best avenue to take? It isn't.
  • FletchFletch Merritt Island, FLPosts: 2,461 Moderator
    notreely wrote: »
    Not reely a vague question, if you know what they (who ever you think they are) say the discard mortality numbers are and don't agree with those numbers. You must have a number you think is correct.

    They originally set ARS "discard" (release) mortality at approximately the following:

    Commercial - 49%
    Charter - 41%
    Recreational - 39%

    At the most recent meeting I attended, it was promising to see they'd lowered those numbers a bit (about 10% across the board) but they're still too high IMO. I've also asked the question of how they can justify different release mortality rates depending on the "mode" under which a boat is fishing and have yet to get a solid answer. i.e. - how can they argue that the same person, fishing in the exact same locations, using the exact same techniques can account for different levels of mortality depending on whether they were fishing commercially, on a charter or recreationally? A scenario I've proposed would be to imagine a commercial kingfisherman incidentally catching say 10 ARS on one day, then incidentally catching 10 the next day in the exact same location using the exact same techniques on a recreational trip yet, according to their model, 5 of them died on the first day while only 4 died on the next day. It makes zero sense and the model doesn't even attempt to accommodate a scenario such as this. This happens a LOT more now than it did in years past btw - yet another anecdotal bit of evidence to suggest way more snapper now than then.

    I've been fishing out of Canaveral since 1990. I haven't kept precise records but I know about what I've observed. I have routinely seen ARS release mortality of around 10% (but probably even less). This covers depths from 50-250 feet with most ARS being taken between 140 and 220. Of course, I can only observe the condition of the release (i.e. - they swim down strong or not) so perhaps some die that I don't know about. Therefore, I've routinely advocated that release mortality should probably fall between 10-15%. Admittedly, a guess on my part but just about anyone of any experience level in our local fishing community would agree.

    One huge problem is that no one (not even the feds) really knows what happens (in terms of mortality) to a fish, over any real period of time, after it has been released and returned to its previously caught depth/location. There has been some active tagging programs (I tagged a ton of em myself) that provided some decent results over time but that is really only measuring fish that survived - not mortality. They've also put them in cages and monitored with video cams but that doesn't recreate a normal release. Being caged alone could account for mortality. Not being a fisheries scientist, I would imagine it would take some pretty sophisticated electronic tags and monitoring systems to get a better idea of what happens to a released fish over any measurable amount of time. But even if the tag was sophisticated enough to report the death of a fish, there would be no real way to know why it died. Did it die as a result of catch/vent/release trauma? Did it get eaten via normal predation or die of natural causes? Did the tag cause an infection? etc, etc
    "Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent, I'll probably waste..."
    -- Tug McGraw on getting a raise

    Get Down Fishing Charters - Port Canaveral, Florida
  • HighTidesDrifterHighTidesDrifter Posts: 105 Officer
    We can go round and around and around about TAC's and mortality rates and fish tags until we're blue in the face, but the question remains (the whole point of this thread) as to why someone from let's say Ohio needs to be able to go into a Red Lobster and order an ARS sandwich while I'm limited to 11 days of fishing? The whole thing is so ludicrous that it borders on insanity. And by the way, I chose Ohio for a reason. In Ohio, 100% of the Walleye fishery now goes to recreational fishing. As a result, the sport fishing in the state is booming and estimated to be nearly a billion dollar a year industry.
    Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    "The main vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the equal distribution of misery." -Winston Churchill
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    We can go round and around and around about TAC's and mortality rates and fish tags until we're blue in the face, but the question remains (the whole point of this thread) as to why someone from let's say Ohio needs to be able to go into a Red Lobster and order an ARS sandwich while I'm limited to 11 days of fishing? The whole thing is so ludicrous that it borders on insanity. And by the way, I chose Ohio for a reason. In Ohio, 100% of the Walleye fishery now goes to recreational fishing. As a result, the sport fishing in the state is booming and estimated to be nearly a billion dollar a year industry.
    if it's so great why do y'all move down here to **** our waters?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
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