Spiral wrapped rods

I got to try one back in January, it was a demo rod from a local builder.
I had a slight accident in the tackle shop that morning, the rod tip caught the door frame as I was walking out and broke. Despite this, I continued to use the spiral jigging rod (minus the last 4" and final guide) at sea that day, and I liked the action. The line never wrapped around the rod tip at all that day (which happens frequently on my Trevala rod). Unfortunately I didn't catch anything so I can't say how it would have performed under fighting conditions. I think I still owe the guy for the damage, I admit it was my fault anyway...

On to the questions:
- Have you used one? you like?
- Have you built one? Do you charge extra for spiral wrap?
- Does it require a special blank, or is it just a regular casting blank that has had the guides chosen and placed for this design?
Hobie Kayak angler for life!

Replies

  • territunaterrituna Posts: 57 Greenhorn
    I love the spiral wrapped rods. They shouldn't charge anymore tho you should have more guides on it then if you went the usual route. It doesn't need a special blank becuase its the blank you were going to get whether you went spiral or not. They use less muscle to keep the reel on top and if using with a smaller setup the casting distance should be further.. Enjoy it.
  • jcanracerjcanracer Posts: 4,333 Moderator
    Thanks! I'm considering whether to invest in a custom rod or not since that's the only way it seems I can get one.
    Hobie Kayak angler for life!
  • SpineymanSpineyman Posts: 8,086 Admiral
    THE NEW SPIRAL RODS - Pinnacle Marine


    The New 2-Piece spiral - $165ea
    Changes made to the new spiral are:
    1.Channel lock II removable reel seat.
    2. 6.5 % exchange of E-glass For Carbon Fiber.
    3. Price + sorry guys/gals but I thought the upgrade was definitely worth the price
    The blank has been slightly modified to a 16.5% carbon fiber vs the 10%. The minor change in composition created a more balanced parabolic curve resulting in better line pressure distribution in every guide location. This is a key feature to reduce heat generation / Drag resulting from excessive pressure on any one guide...especially those in the twist.
    To achieve the Same result, the guide number would have to be increased, or the guides would have to be disproportionately spaced on the rod. Doesn't look as good as a hidden layer of carbon fiber.
    Specs:
    Stock Length: 6 foot combined - Rod section - 52.5", Butt section - 22.5"
    Available in:
    20-40lb class ( 300-450 Gram jig weight) -rod weight - 1 lb 1oz
    30-50 lb class (450-600g jig weight)-rod weight- 1lb 4oz
    Reel seat: Pacific Bay International CL22M2 - Channel lock 2
    Guides: ALPS XN series with S-6 (SS-316 Stainless steel) - SIC Deep pressed ring.
    2X under-bound and 2x over- wrap on each guide foot
    Finished off with Flexcoat Ultra V

    Rumors on the internet about the direction of twist / torque etc on a spiral rod need to be addresses. Please don't believe everything you read. It appears that there are a few individuals (2) who do not like the right hand twist and have an argument for it. I would agree with them if the arguments were actually factual.
    Here are the FACTS
    1. The direction of the twist has absolutely nothing to do with anti-torque created by cranking the reel either for left handed, or right handed individuals. The offset of the guides wrapped in either direction creates "ZERO" torque on the rod when under a load and therefore has no effect on counter torque created by left hand / right hand reel operation.
    2. The right hand Twist has two purposes - 1. For right handed individuals (right hand crank), the 5mm offset to the right on the stripper guide allows for a more ergonomic grip of the left hand on the rod without coming in contact with the line while the fish is running. If you are left handed (crank left handed), the line will encroach on your right hand grip 5mm. When we surveyed - the right hand twist was also more appealing to the eye, and weighing the actual facts, it was decided the right hand twist was the way to go. Customer Proof - Over 1500 sold and 5 actual request for a left twist.
    3. The 5mm line offset on the stripper guide does not make the leveling of the line any harder. My 7, and 9 yr old both prefer the spiral and they don't use level wind reels. Neither one has ever had a problem leveling, so I wouldn't suspect any adult having an issue. The offset of the line on the stripper guide allows you to rotate your hand further clock wise on the grip, so the 5mm offset does not actually affect the thumb reach for line leveling.

    So why not do a left twist for the lefties? - If requested I will place the initial stripper guide 12 degrees further left to compensate for the 5 mm that the line encroaches on the right hand grip if you so desire.

    The "REAL" reason for the Spiral - Spinning rods are extremely stable and they create zero twist on the rod when under load. Why? - All guides are fixed to the underside of the rod and there is no other place for them to go under load. Guides on the top of the rod when under load inherently want to go left or right to try to get to the underside of the rod to relieve the stress. Spiral wraps make it possible to have the stability of a spinning rod using a conventional reel. The last 3 guides and tip are located on the underside of the blank effectively negating the twisting force that is normally present on a conventional rod (where all Guides are located on top of blank).

    If you have any questions regarding the spiral wrap and "ACTUAL" testing results, please give me a call -

    Special note for the gals:
    The butt / reel seat section on this rod is too long for you if you want to fish it from a belt after the strike. Please let me know when ordering and I will make the butt section to your specified length. Please call me on how to do this. It is easy and you will love the rod that much more. I already have a standard length that has been used on 20+ rods for the ladies, but I would rather you measure for best comfort.
    Available colors:
    Blue/silver -
    Black/Silver
    Gold/Black
    I will update inventory as necessary
    Please call with questions / Orders
    I can Take Paypal, or any type of credit.
    [email protected]
    210-364-6943 - Please leave a message if necessary - often calls come in 30 seconds after the final stir on a curing pot of fresh epoxy. Your call will be returned quickly. Thanks!
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • jcanracerjcanracer Posts: 4,333 Moderator
    Hey Spineyman, that Pinnacle 250g 6'6" rod coming out in spring looks promising (page 4 on his THT thread). The others are a bit heavy for my usage (kayak jigging, 6oz jigs, Daiwa Saltist ld35, 40# braid).
    Hobie Kayak angler for life!
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    Boomerang Rods also makes custom Spirals for ~$150 & since they 'Go Left', as a Right Handed Angler I much prefer them to the Pinnacles that Spiral to the same side as my Reel Handle... IMO Spiral Rod Guides should 'Spiral' in the Opposite Direction of the Reel Handle (To the Left for Right Handed Reels)
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • jcanracerjcanracer Posts: 4,333 Moderator
    I will have to make my way over to Boomerang's showroom. I'd like to see how heavy the rods are. I do prefer a one piece like theirs over the 2 piece that Pinnacle seems to favor.
    Hobie Kayak angler for life!
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    I have 2) Boomerang 50-100 Spiral Bottom Rods matched w/Torsa 20s (w/BFS-50 Cams) & they are Beasts...
    I actually prefer the softer E-glass blend when fishing Braid b/c the rods absorb a lot of the abuse that some of my stiffer (more expensive) Rods (w/more Graphite) transmit directly to me...
    Ask the Guys if they remember building my Auburn Tiger / War Eagle Orange & Blue Splatter/Swirl Rod for me a couple of years ago (when they were 1st promoting them)
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • rysherrysher Posts: 380 Deckhand
    jcanracer wrote: »
    On to the questions:
    - Have you used one? you like?
    - Have you built one? Do you charge extra for spiral wrap?
    - Does it require a special blank, or is it just a regular casting blank that has had the guides chosen and placed for this design?
    1. yes / yes
    2. yes / no
    3. no

    regular conventional: top 2 pics are from users that posted there pics in forums, i asked the these users if i could use their pics and i have permission to use them. 3rd pic is random pic i found in the internet.

    kik78_zpsb64fe3f9.jpg

    twist-1_zps787bf6e0.jpg

    twist.jpg

    my acid wrap builds for guys in this forum:

    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?81548-Custom-acid-wrapped-jigging-rod&highlight=zward

    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?97856-Thanks-Rysher&highlight=rysher

    12# weight
    spiral2.jpg

    15#
    IMG_0505_zpsngqerkue.jpg

    90% of conventionals that i built/build are acid wrapped.
  • jcanracerjcanracer Posts: 4,333 Moderator
    Ray thank you for your answers. I've seen some of your work here on the forum, very nice!
    Hobie Kayak angler for life!
  • SpineymanSpineyman Posts: 8,086 Admiral
    Boomerang Rods also makes custom Spirals for ~$150 & since they 'Go Left', as a Right Handed Angler I much prefer them to the Pinnacles that Spiral to the same side as my Reel Handle... IMO Spiral Rod Guides should 'Spiral' in the Opposite Direction of the Reel Handle (To the Left for Right Handed Reels)

    I also agree on the turn to the left for right handed reels, but I was just giving him an option other than a custom made one at higher expense.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • SpineymanSpineyman Posts: 8,086 Admiral
    http://jprrods.com/store/shopexd.asp?cat_id=158&id=449&currentcat=Rods

    Here is another option from a Master Rod builder.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • CageyCagey Posts: 611 Officer
    Boomerang Rods also makes custom Spirals for ~$150 & since they 'Go Left', as a Right Handed Angler I much prefer them to the Pinnacles that Spiral to the same side as my Reel Handle... IMO Spiral Rod Guides should 'Spiral' in the Opposite Direction of the Reel Handle (To the Left for Right Handed Reels)

    Hmmmm... as a custom rod builder myself for more than 20 years I am not sure who I would be agreeing with or disagreeing with concerning the above quote.

    After decades of building and using spiral wrapped rods, for me the only way to do it that makes sense to me and the way I use a spiral wrapped rod is to wrap the rod to the inside when under load. What I mean is that if you hold the rod in your right hand when fighting a fish, it is best to wrap to the left, or inside, and vice versa, if you hold the rod in your left hand when fighting a fish it is best for the spiral wrap to go to the right or inside again because if it were the opposite, then when fighting a fish under load the rod bends in such a way that brings the line closer to the rod blank causing rubbing which is part of the reason I use spiral wraps is prevent line rubbing on the rod under load.

    So for this reason, I hold the rod in my right hand, and I want all of my reels to have the handles on the left side, and I want the spiral wrap to also go around the rod on the left side. So when I am fighting a fish, I want my rod to bend to the left under load and the line is pulled away from the rod blank, not into it.

    One of the key characteristics I strive for when choosing guide placement and angle is that the line flow actually straightens out under load, not the other way around. So as the rod bends under the loading of a fish on, the guides are actually pulled INTO alignment which is preferable to it being the opposite and being pulled out of alignment under load causing greater guide loading and increased friction and larger angles of line turn as it moves through the guides.

    I also offset the stripper guide too, but for me there is no magic degree of angle that works on all rods.

    With each spiral wrapped rod I build, the placement of the guides is different on every rod. I let the rod and line flow under load tell me where each guide should be placed. I strive for the straightest line flow under load only. I do not worry about it when the rod is NOT under load as that is irrelevant. A spiral wrapped rod matters most under load so that is the condition under which I observe line flow through the guides for the straightest possible line flow through the guides.

    Quite often my 180 degrees of spiral wrap is spread out over 2/3's of the rod's length to accomplish this straight line flow path.

    I have seen many custom made spiral wrapped rods that are beautifully made, great workmanship, but the spiral wrap guide placement is straight out of a textbook at 0 degrees, 90 degrees, and 180 degrees all crammed into a foot or two of the rod's length which makes no sense to me what so ever. It works, but it is not ideal. Ideal is to reduce guide loading and friction through the guides by reducing the angle of turn through each guide.

    Here is an image of a custom made rod with guide placement of what looks like 0, 90, and 180 degrees right out of a text book. This rod builder used text book guide placement and the 180 degrees is accomplished in about 2 feet of rod length. This means the angle of line flow through each guide when under load will have a greater angle of turn causing increased friction and guide loading.

    525

    Here is a rod I modified recently into a spiral wrap. This is an off the shelf Falcon Bucco micro guide series that all I did on this one was redo the guides on it:

    19691231_190439_zpsiy3d6mkn.jpg

    Notice the stripper guide is visually split by the edge of the rod shaft? I have found this to be a common placement on rods, not all, but a lot of them have worked out this way. I don't do this because I choose this spot, I do this because when I test the rod under load and begin tweaking the guides into placement where the line flow under load is the straightest possible, this placement has repeated itself on many of the rods I construct as spiral wrapped rods. I have no idea what the exact angle would be, but it is different slightly on every rod. No two are the same or have the same placement.

    One other detail I pay close attention to when adjusting guide placement is where in the guide the line sits or flows through the guide at when under load. If it pulls off to the left I adjust guide placement until the line flows through the center of the guide and usually rests in the bottom center of the guide. And I do this under a straight load. Once this is done, then I do a side load to the right and to the left as would normally happen when fighting a fish and I watch the line to see if it gets too close or ever touches the rod blank. If it does then I have to make changes to address this. Height of the guide off the rod blank really matters here and since I now prefer to use micro guides it makes placement all the more critical because of how short those guides are.

    One other issue I take into account for guide placement is to actually use the bend in the rod under load in the same way an engineer builds a hump in the middle of a bridge for boats to pass under rather than a flat bridge no boat can pass under. What I mean is that I include the first part of the bend in a loaded rod in the same way a boat passes under the raised section of a bridge. When the rod bends, it provides an arch of a sort that allows for more clearance for the line to pass under as it spirals around the rod shaft and this only happens way out in the last few degrees of the spiral wrap just before where the 180 degree guides begin. You have to see this work under load. A non-loaded straight rod won't reveal this to you.

    Another detail I use often is that if the stripper guide can be offset a few degrees, so to can the last guide before the 180 degree guides. The idea is to evenly distribute the spiral wrap 180 degrees out across a greater distance of the rod length rather than trying to cram the 180 degree wrap into a couple of feet of the rod length. I have found stretching it out works better in my opinion.

    One of the first things I do when deciding guide placement is to stand the rod on end and bend the rod with my hand and observe what part of the rod is straight and the point where it starts to bend under load. I use a piece of tape to mark this transition spot because I know all the 180 degree guides will be out past this piece of tape and my spiral wrap guides will be behind it.

    I actually start off placing the known fixed location guides all the 180 degree guides and the tip are put on first. And then I work my way back to the reel. But I do not epoxy the first known 180 degree guide in place at this point because I may have to adjust it once I get the rest of the guides on the rod. Then I do the loaded line flow testing and I let the rod and line tell me the best angle and placement for each guide. Once this is done then I can epoxy all the guides in place and go fishing.

    I have enjoyed spiral wrapped rods for nearly 30 years since my first custom rod and I have been building them myself ever since because I simply have not been happy nor satisfied with letting others build them for me.

    To me it is all about using physics to my advantage to reach the most ideal spiral wrap I can achieve under different circumstances that each rod presents to me.

    19691231_190649_zps9hucybjb.jpg

    Notice when under load how straight the line flow is through the spiral wrap guides. There is very little angle of turn through the guides, and the 180 degrees is spread out from the reel all the way out to the 4th and 5th guide out from the reel nearly 2/3's of the rod's length. And since these are micro guides and not very tall, I have to wrap to the inside since I hold the rod in my right hand when fighting a fish so I want the line pulled away from the rod blank, not into it if reversed and wrapped around to the outside or right side.

    So for me I follow a rule to always wrap to the inside, which works out to wrap to the same side my reel handles are on. Left side handle, left side spiral wrap.

    But for those people who are right handed and use reels with handles on the right, I see them casting with the right hand and then switch the rod and reel over to their left hand so they can access the handle on the right side of the reel. If the rod is in the left hand when fighting a fish, my opinion would be to spiral wrap to the inside, or right side, again same side as the reel handle.
  • rysherrysher Posts: 380 Deckhand
    0,90,180 is called bumper guide or bumper spiral.

    if your rod is bending towards the orientation of the spiral that means your spiral is wrong. a spiral under load shouldnt bend towards where the transition guides are.

    your rod bends towards the spiral because your transition gudies are carrying load because they are caught way beyond the initial flex of the rod. to fix this, you need your first 180 degree guide to be before the initial flex of the rod. it keeps it stable (bending towards left/right under load) and the TRANSITION GUIDES DOESNT CARRY LOAD. the transition guides job is to GUiDE THE LINE from 0 to 180. guides carrying the load are the 180's and the 0-10.

    EXPIREMENT:
    tape all the guides (except the 0-10 need to wrap it so it doesnt move) in a regular conventional set up and then load the rod. the guides towards the tip will twist down, some guide will be left in the side. take note of the first 180 guide, where iit it with regards to the initial bend.
  • CageyCagey Posts: 611 Officer
    rysher wrote: »
    if your rod is bending towards the orientation of the spiral that means your spiral is wrong. a spiral under load shouldnt bend towards where the transition guides are.

    How do you tell a fish to only bend a rod to one side? Fish go left, fish go right, so the rod is bent both ways. Sometimes towards the spiral wrap, sometimes away from the spiral wrap. After more than 25 years of using them I made my choice and it is not wrong. It is super smooth and a pleasure to use.

    You said if the rod is bending towards the orientation of the spiral it is wrong. Why is this? Based on what rule or book says so?

    When you hook a fish and the rod begins to bend under the load of the fish the entire purpose and reasoning behind building a spiral wrapped rod is for the rod to bend in what direction? The rod bends in the direction OF the 180 degree guides carrying the load UNDER the rod.

    Now wouldn't it seem naturally correct for the spiral to transition into that loading of the rod in a natural way? It is a nice line flow curve all carried under the rod. If the rod is SUPPOSE to bend towards the 180 degree guides, then why is it wrong to also bend towards the spiral wrapped guides? I just do not get this. It makes no sense from a physics stand point.

    I'll post some photos later to show why I do not do it that way.

    I mean the whole point of doing a spiral wrap was to get away from this:

    102tbmx.jpg

    I hold my rod in my right hand always. So when fighting a fish I tend to push the rod to my right and work the fish to me on the inside or LEFT side of my rod. So the load is pulled down and to the left. And I want my spiral wrap guides on the left or, on the inside working with me doing exactly the same thing for me the 180 degree guides are doing. And it works marvelously.

    I will not build a rod for me to use with the guides going in the opposite direction because of how I use a rod under load. It just makes absolutely no sense to me what so ever. And this is the beauty of custom rod building. You can do it any way you want to. I am just trying to say I have found a way to do it closer to an ideal.

    If I did it "right" according to the person above, then when I am fighting a fish holding the rod in my right hand and trying to keep the fish to the left of my rod or the inside, if I spiral wrapped around to the outside, then as my rod bends under load guess what happens to the outside line flowing through the spiral wrapped guides? It is PULLED into the rod exactly in the same way as shown above.

    I have tested for this and you can too. Load up a spiral wrapped rod and pull to the left and then pull to the right. WATCH the line. Going one way towards the spiral side and the line pulls away from the rod. Pull in the other direction away from the spiral side of the rod and the line WILL PULL into the rod. This is what I want to avoid which is the entire reason I build spirals for myself. So no, I do not agree with you that it is wrong. For me it is right and it works.

    I have made more than 30 spiral wrapped rods for myself and they have steadily improved over the years. I am building two more right now.

    In my unprofessional opinion there is no wrong way. There is only less ideal and closer to ideal. You can spiral wrap in either direction and it will work fine for years. You can spiral wrap in 2 feet of rod length and it works but is less ideal, or you can spiral wrap 2/3's the length of the rod like I do and it works fantastic and is closer to ideal.
    rysher wrote: »
    the TRANSITION GUIDES DOESNT CARRY LOAD. the transition guides job is to GUiDE THE LINE from 0 to 180. guides carrying the load are the 180's and the 0-10.

    So as if by magic only half the guides on the rod carry a load and the guides that wrap a tight line around a rod shaft feel absolutely no load? How is this physically possible I can only wonder?

    Also, maybe I was not clear on what I mean by guide loading, and it is not just a fish hanging off the end of the rod.

    mpja-seafoam-close-guide.jpg?v=1456260548

    The above rod has a price tag of $1,400,00. Do you see that second bumper guide out? Follow what the line under load of a fish would do. It goes straight out from the reel, then makes a turn to the right to go into the 2nd guide, and then turned back to the left to 3rd guide out. When the line is pulled tight because of a fish on the line, that second guide will experience a side loading effect. All of them will feel the weight trying to PULL those guides back into a straight line. No way to avoid it with this configuration. The line wants to pull straight, but the guides won't allow it. That is a guide loading effect and sideways to. It is not as much weight as the guides experience out at the tip, but it is a load just the same.

    So for anyone to say the spiral wrap bumper guides do NOT experience any loading is simply not true. They do. But it is a different kind of loading than the 180's experience.

    Here is an image to demonstrate it- the sideways loading of a spiral guide:

    700XLS3.JPG
    Pay close attention to the following spiral wrap's 3rd guide out from the reel. Where is the load placement on that guide? Look at the place on the guide where the line is touching when under load. It is riding up on the side pulling that guide down sideways because the line wants to straighten out in a straight line and this guide is PREVENTING that from happening. To me, this is WRONG! This is not ideal. (Even the stripper guide and 2nd guide out by my way of doing things need to be tweaked over some to help that line flow straighter.) This spiral wrap is less than ideal. Tweak those guides to where the tight line under load rests in the bottom center when the rod is loaded straight down.

    Whoever built this rod, they put the guides where they wanted them rather than let the rod and line tell them where to put them, so here we see an un-natural line flow that is NOT straightened out or corrected in my opinion. I go to extremes to AVOID this.

    Before I lock a guide down in place I check for this type of mistake and correct for it. That 2nd bumper guide out and 3rd guide should have been adjusted further down allow the line flow straight through it rather than loading up on the side of the guide and pulling it sideways. I would never build a spiral wrap rod like this. I showed above how straight the line flows through my spiral wrapped guides. That is the ideal condition to achieve. The following is not. Will it work? Yes it does. Is it ideal? I think not. It could have been tweaked into a straighter line flow path when under load, but this one is not.

    When I get the best or ideal guide placement through the spiral, when the rod is loaded straight down ONLY, I want the line that is pulled tight under load to be centered in the spiral wrap guides. This is important because when the rod is pulled to the right the line under load will follow and move to the right increasing the side loading effect the more the rod is pulled and bent that way, and the same holds true in the opposite direction. When pulled to the left under load the tight line also pulls to the left and begins to ride up on the sides to the left. I think ideal is a centering of the line in the guide when the rod is loaded straight down. This allows for side to side movement without too much of an increase in guide loading or friction.

    Look, there is no perfect way to do this. There is only closer to ideal or further away from ideal.

    That is why I have adjusted my technique over the years to place guides on my rods where the line when pulled tight actually comes into a straight alignment under load to reduce the side loading effect on the spiral guides. These are my results:

    And just look at how straight the line flows UNDER LOAD! And, look at the 2nd bumper or spiral guide out. Where is the line resting in the guide? Is it riding up on the side like you see above? NO! The line is PERFECTLY centered in the bottom of the guide because I let the line tell me where the guide should be on this rod, not some rules in a book. Every rod is different. I can not go by rules from a book. That is just a starting point guide, but not the end all on how to build spiral wrap rods. I tweak for perfection and after more than 25 years I like to think I have improved rather than not.
    19691231_190649_zps9hucybjb.jpg

    I use physics to my advantage. I work with physics, not against it. Rather than me telling the line where I want it to go, I let the line and rod under load TELL ME where the best guide placement is and it works. I can not argue with success and honestly I do not care what some book says is the right way or wrong way to do it.

    Custom rod building is exactly that- custom rod building. I was merely trying to share the conclusions of nearly 3 decades of rod building here so others could benefit from it.

    I do build rods like this for other people and I have never had any complaints. They love 'em as much as I do. Which reminds me I have two more to finish... Oh and hey, if I am building them all wrong, then I am not alone... Elite Rods does the exact same thing I do... Spiral to the inside. Spiral on the same side as the handle. Not the other way because of pure physics.

    The following image is a custom made Elite rod shown on their website: http://eliterods.com/

    Spiral-Wrap.jpg

    Here is yet another custom rod builder doing the same thing I do- spiral wrap to the same side as the reel handle or, to the inside for the fisherman. Rod in right hand, spiral to the left. Rod in left hand spiral to the right. The following image is from: http://www.theworriedshrimp.com/2004_09_05_

    rod50small.jpg
  • CageyCagey Posts: 611 Officer
    118325eb4b4c65d1107e2947ce103237-235x300.jpg
    Poseidon Fishing’s Spiral Guide Tuna Rod: http://inventivefishing.com/posts/?p=3242



    As shown above, here is something I won't do in a spiral wrapped rod and I will get into why shortly.

    I first ran across this at MudHole custom rod shop in Oviedo just 10 minutes away from me here in central Florida. So I asked some custom rod builders at MudHole why would anyone do this when building a custom spiral wrapped rod? They had a quick answer for me- "line stacking."

    But before I get started, let me clarify that the custom rods shown on display inside of the MudHole store were all made by custom rod builders who do NOT work for Mudhole. Custom rod builders apparently either leave for display on loan, or simply give Mudhole samples of their custom rods that are standing in the display racks inside of Mudhole. I have asked are these rods for sale and I have been told no. They are only display samples. Here is an image from inside Mudhole showing the wooden racks behind this guy filled with a variety of custom rods for display only:

    Jim-Dillard-Stops-by-Mud-Hole-To-Build-A-Rod.jpg

    I asked the experts at Mudhole why the reverse offset and I was told it was done to prevent line stacking in the reel, or the line winding up more to one side of the reel than the other. I found this interesting to say the least.

    My first custom spiral wrapped rod was one I purchased at a garage sale in Winter Park, Florida when some wifey poo had divorced her husband and was now selling off all his stuff in her garage sale. Needless to say it, but she just wanted his stuff gone, so I was buying up some of his custom made rods for like $3 or $4 dollars each. This was more than 25 years ago, so this was in the early 1990's and at that time the one spiral wrapped custom made rod I purchased was already several years old at that time. So I assume this rod was made in the 1980's sometime.

    It had a hodge podge mixture of guides on it. No two were the same. But it was a spiral wrap just the same. I had never seen one to this point and certainly had never used one when this rod fell into my hands. But it was a life changing rod for me. And I have used what it taught me to build my own rods ever since because I have used this old custom spiral wrapped rod for years after I purchased it which is what made me love using spiral wrapped rods.

    The very first guide out, or stripper guide, was placed at 90 degrees to the left side of the rod. 90 degrees to the left, or the 9 o'clock position.

    I have used this rod with all kinds of reels and all different kinds of line. And I never experienced line stacking. Did not happen. Not a problem and not even an issue with this rod.

    So if the stripper guide CAN be placed 90 degrees offset to the reel and no line stacking is evident, then why or by what theory would offsetting the stripper guide on the tuna rod above to opposite side of the spiral do to prevent line stacking? It doesn't! This is just a case of people buying into a theory and then running with it when there is not one shred of truth to it. But does it work? Of course it will work, but it is not ideal. From the reel you need to go around the rod blank 180 degrees. How in the hell does it make sense now to add an additional 10 degrees in the opposite direction now making it 190 degrees give or take a few degrees to get that line around the rod blank?

    And the experts say it is to prevent line stacking? If I experienced line stacking and the theory could be PROVEN then I would agree. But when I have rods with the stripper guide now 100 degrees in the other direction and I do NOT experience any line stacking, then I can see no valid argument or point to doing it 10 degrees offset in the opposite direction of the spiral wrap.

    So that very first custom rod I bought from that garage sale taught me probably one of the most valuable lessons I needed in giving me direction in which way to go as I tweaked my future rod guide placements.

    Today I usually offset around 10 degrees to the same side as the spiral wrap, not the opposite because I want the line leaving the reel to flow as straight as possible when under load. Doing it 10 degrees or so in the opposite way is kind of defeating the purpose of why I build and use spiral wrapped rods.

    So I now completely disagree with this theory because I personally have never seen any evidence to support it. If my 90 degree offset stripper guide does not line stack on a reel- any reel, then my 10 degree offset to the spiral wrap side will also NOT cause any line stacking. End of story for me.


    As a side note, I thought I would add that I am a regular customer of Mudhole on account there and I regularly just spend time looking at all the variety of custom rods that are on display there, and I have to say that by far one of the most innovative and frontier pioneering method builders on display there that stands out heads and heels above 99% of all the custom rods in there are made by Pat VinZant of Alabama. Pat does things and can do things NO ONE else can do. His work is amazing works of art like no other. I only wish I had his skills and artistic ability. He uses real snake skins on his rods and he had to develop special process for it too. An amazing custom rod builder. One of the best I have ever seen.

    He is a member of Custom Rod Builders Guild.

    Here are a couple of Rod Guild tutorials done by Pat VinZant:

    Snake Skin application:

    http://www.rodguild.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Snake-Skin-Inlays-by-Pat-Vinzant.pdf

    Feather image inlays:

    http://www.rodguild.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Fish-Image-Feather-Inlays-by-Pat-Vinzant.pdf
  • rysherrysher Posts: 380 Deckhand
    Cagey wrote: »
    How do you tell a fish to only bend a rod to one side? Fish go left, fish go right, so the rod is bent both ways. Sometimes towards the spiral wrap, sometimes away from the spiral wrap. After more than 25 years of using them I made my choice and it is not wrong. It is super smooth and a pleasure to use.
    you dont udnerstand, if a fish runs left or right, a properly built spiral rod ouldnt twist to the right nor to the left no mtter wher the transition guides turn. yours twists towards where the fish is running? that is built wrong.
    25, 50, 100 years doesnt hold any value to me.
    just like the guy in rodbuilding.org, everytime he starts a sentence it is always "i've been building for 45 years" -- yup and you've been doing it wrong the whole time!

    Cagey wrote: »
    I mean the whole point of doing a spiral wrap was to get away from this:

    102tbmx.jpg.
    your reason to spiral is wrong, no wonder your spiral twists towards where the fish is running.
    you dont need to spiral to solve that problem line touching the bank.
    add more guides or use higher frame guide.

    Cagey wrote: »
    So as if by magic only half the guides on the rod carry a load and the guides that wrap a tight line around a rod shaft feel absolutely no load? How is this physically possible I can only wonder?
    transition guides doesnt/shouldnt carry a load, if it does at the minimum.
    Cagey wrote: »
    How is this physically possible I can only wonder?
    do your experiment. or go to rodbuilding.org and do your research.

    Cagey wrote: »
    mpja-seafoam-close-guide.jpg?v=1456260548

    The above rod has a price tag of $1,400,00. Do you see that second bumper guide out?
    that's called an antacid wrap. do your research, it has a function/purpose. maven is built by kilwell, the same manufacturer that makes synit rods, check the prices on synit rods.
    heard of fisherman, ripple fisher, medusa custom works, patriot design and carpenter to name a few, research on how much those rods go for.
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    :Agree:applause
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • CageyCagey Posts: 611 Officer
    We are just going to have to agree to disagree. You are apparently missing out on what physics is showing you to be truth. First you say there is no twist on a spiral wrap pulled left or right and that simply is not true. They do twist. And because of that, it does provide for you a way to use physics to your advantage or, work against you depending on how you approach this.

    Physics dictates which side the spiral wrap works best for each fisherman. It is not a rule from a book. End of story. A spiral wrap can go around the rod to either side, but there has to be a solid reason based in physics why one way or another works better for each fisherman.

    For me, I only wrap the left because when I use a rod more often than not the bend under load goes to the left and I want my spiral on the left because the 180's align more so with the transition guides showing a smooth curve to line flow. If I did it to the outside or the right side, the way I use a rod would cause me to work a fish in to me on the left side pulling the 180 guides out of alignment even more than a straight loaded rod.

    And there have been times to add more guides, but going higher or taller is not what I want. I moved away from taller guides. I like the low profile micro guides and I will continue to work with those.

    Forgive me for the following quick hand drawing, but I did it to illustrate why I do what I do as shown with the rod on the left, and it is not wrong. It is right according to physics. Follow the line flow under a left side loaded rod as I use it and see where the misalignment occurs if I spiral wrapped on the right side. How can anyone say going MORE out of alignment or further out of alignment right there is better or right is beyond me as shown by the rod on the right in the poor drawing below:

    a06fa8c1-a4fc-4258-a13a-2bae0c766866_zps5cvokakw.jpg

    This is one of the reasons I wrap to the left or, to the side I most often am using my rods in my right hand working the fish load on the rod to the left side of the rod.

    Looking at the first rod illustration on the left side above, notice the last transition guide before the 180's on a rod pulled to the left with the spiral transition guides on the left? A fish actually pulls all these guides into alignment WITH the last transition guide giving me a nice natural curve for line flow with more ideal guide loading suspended under the rod.

    If I did it the way you say to do it- as in the diagram illustrated above on the rod on the right side, and put the spiral on the opposite side of the rod, then when pulled to the left look at how the transition guides are now on the wrong side of the rod and NOT giving me a smooth curve of line flow suspended under the rod. The 180 guides are now being pulled out of alignment and AWAY from the last transition guide making for an angle turn in the line to the left and is no longer a nice linear natural curve suspended under the rod. Now there is a heavier side loading of that last guide on the lower left side and I want to avoid this! I do avoid this from happening with my rods.

    Both will work. But one way is clearly a better way based on simple physics. Experience has shown me with physics that my way is the better way or, the more ideal way and for me to spiral wrap to the outside or, right side goes against physics. Simple as that.

    These results are a beautiful thing! And this is NOT wrong! It is closest to ideal for me. Just look at how STRAIGHT the line flow is through the spiral wrap. Are your rods showing you a straight line flow path? Be honest.

    19691231_190649_zps9hucybjb.jpg

    Yep, a physical work of beauty when you use physics to work for you and with you! Below you can see the rod twist to the left, or clockwise when loaded to the left and those 180's actually twist INTO alignment with my last transition guide, not away from it as the image after this one shows when loaded to the right.

    DSCN0040_zpswatctvyt.jpg

    Makes no sense to do it in a way where physics works against you as my poor art drawing above illustrates, but here is a left side spiral loaded off to the right and it should be clear how the 180's are not moving into alignment with the last spiral transition guide. They are in fact moving out of alignment increasing friction and right side loading in that last transition guide and not a smooth curve line flow either. This to me is wrong.

    So you do it your way and I will continue to do it my way and love the results and could not care less if you think it is wrong. I know it is not.

    DSCN0039_zpsitzlp0ly.jpg
  • CageyCagey Posts: 611 Officer
    rysher wrote: »
    you dont udnerstand, if a fish runs left or right, a properly built spiral rod shouldnt twist to the right nor to the left no mtter wher the transition guides turn. yours twists towards where the fish is running? that is built wrong.

    Built wrong? No. Not true. Rods do twist. You are wrong. And I WANT my rod to twist towards the spiral wrapped side because of better guide alignment and straighter more perfect curvature of line flow. They actually pull into alignment, not out of alignment as you suggest is the "right" way.

    Would you agree that a spiral wrap can be done on both sides of the rod?

    If you are open minded enough to know that yes you can spiral wrap BOTH sides of a rod, then the next question is why to go one way or the other. And this is where we disagree.

    I am telling you I want my guides pulled into alignment under a load of a fish worked to the left, so for me the spiral wrap should go to the same side as the rod loading and twisting goes to naturally, not the other side.

    So it is not wrong. It is simply not YOUR way which is not the end all one and only way to do this as I know all too well.

    After all, they do put guides on spinning rods in a straight line to straighten out the line flow and all I am doing is making my spiral wraps as close to that as possible. It is the closest thing to ideal so please stop it with the right and wrong language because what I am doing is NOT wrong. It is just not the way you think things should be done. My way works and works beautifully. I strive for the straightest possible line flow, not left then right and then left again and back to the right and keep the line an inch off the rod blank or whatever.

    Straightest possible line flow working with physics, not against physics. Be open to new ways of doing things.

    Shame you guys are missing out on something that works fantastic! If you tried one of the rods done the way I am trying to describe you would be a believer too! My buddies who use them love them. They would make a believer out of you too I have no doubt about it. You can teach an old dog a new trick sometimes. It is hard to argue with success and something that works extremely well.

    I now own about 30 rods built the way I am describing above.

    On a lighter note, you can catch fish on this too:

    brenrod_zpsdbhupqaw.jpg

    What is also kind of funny is that in 1908 John Scanlan filed for a patent on a spiral wrapped rod, but his idea of how to place the guides is by today's standards "wrong". But he did get his patent for a right idea done the wrong way!
  • CageyCagey Posts: 611 Officer
    I went back over this thread and it seems that at issue we disagree on how to construct spiral wraps on two very different type of rods used for very different ways of fishing.

    If this is what you are building, it is far different than what I build.

    Your spiral wrapped rod showing entire rod is bending under load and angular turns in line flow path through most of the guides:

    IMG_0505_zpsngqerkue.jpg

    While this is what I like to make- bass fishing casting rods that are spiral wrapped. I follow a different way of approaching what I do that is obviously different from what you do. Nothing wrong with either.

    For me, after years of experimenting, the spiral works best for me on the same side as the handle. Doing it the other way goes against the spiral design, not with it.

    19691231_190439_zpsiy3d6mkn.jpg

    19691231_190649_zps9hucybjb.jpg

    One thing should be clear to all who see these images. On your spiral wrapped rod above, It appears your stripper guide is a the 0 degree position but even if it is not makes no difference to what I am about to point out-

    When you follow line flow path on your rod under load as shown in your image, the line pulled tight wants to go in a straight line from the stripper guide to the 3rd transition guide out from the reel, but your 2nd transition guide in the position it is in is preventing the line from straightening out right there and you can see it in your photo.

    Out of curiosity, why can't that 2nd transition guide be lowered into a position where the line flow path is actually straightened out right there? Why does that guide have to be higher up making the line under load make an angular turn as it passes through that 2nd guide? If you lowered it down to where the line flows through it in a straighter flow path from the stripper guide to the 3rd guide out it would decrease friction a little bit.

    And this is where you and I differ. I would lower that second guide. In fact I do exactly that on my rods because I go to the extreme to straighten out line flow path under load on all my rods. I do not place guides on a rod to increase friction and put side pressure on guides like that. As I said in my first post I pay close attention to line flow under load and let it guide me to where guide placement should be for each rod.

    In my totally unprofessional opinion, that 2nd guide out is not in an ideal location and it can be adjusted down more to straighten out the line flow path right there with NO negative effects on what you are doing. I know this to be true because I do it.

    Look at my 7 foot bass fishing rod photo. Look at how straight the line flow path is on my rod through that 2 transition guide when under load. No sharp angular turn to the line. No increased side loading of the guide and no increased friction. ELIMINATED on my rod.

    The key for me is to place guides where the line flows straightest under load, so as my rod bends it minimalizes friction and makes casting and retrieving smooth and easy and effortless. It is a beautiful thing.

    We are both accomplishing the same thing in different ways and it all works. Some more ideal than others and that is just the way it goes. I disagree with what I see your "methodology" is and you disagree with mine. But it is all good and it does all work.
  • rysherrysher Posts: 380 Deckhand
    let me ask you this, what is the purpose to spiral wrap a rod?

    we can also discuss it here with other builders rodbuilding.org who has been building for more than you and me combined.
  • jcanracerjcanracer Posts: 4,333 Moderator
    Since I started the thread I now have two spiral wrapped rods: one for vertical jigging and one for live bait. The biggest benefit I've noticed is that when vertical jigging, the line doesn't wrap around the tip as often as it used to. Also, with regards to which side it spirals to, I chose to have the guides spiral left since that is opposite of my reel's handle.
    Hobie Kayak angler for life!
  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    jcanracer wrote: »
    I got to try one back in January, it was a demo rod from a local builder.
    I had a slight accident in the tackle shop that morning, the rod tip caught the door frame as I was walking out and broke. Despite this, I continued to use the spiral jigging rod (minus the last 4" and final guide) at sea that day, and I liked the action. The line never wrapped around the rod tip at all that day (which happens frequently on my Trevala rod). Unfortunately I didn't catch anything so I can't say how it would have performed under fighting conditions. I think I still owe the guy for the damage, I admit it was my fault anyway...

    On to the questions:
    - Have you used one? you like?
    - Have you built one? Do you charge extra for spiral wrap?
    - Does it require a special blank, or is it just a regular casting blank that has had the guides chosen and placed for this design?

    J...

    Let's answer your questions first.

    (1) I have many and I do like them a lot.

    (2) I have built many acid wraps and the do cost a bit more because if done right there are 2 more guides along with layout time.

    (3) No special blank is needed , but when laying out the guide placement they should be taped on and tried and adjusted instead of just throwing them on.

    The only benefit to an acid wrap is that when fighting a fish the reel remains upright.....like it was miracled there if done right. You would not want one for distance casting.
    On Wednesday, 1/25/2017...Florida Sportsman "Big Kahunna"......"Triple Threat 33T" gave his "official word"...and greasy thumb print...by saying....."Here's your written rules Schmidty, No Politics in OT. You're welcome."

    ...and with that history was made...:)
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