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Now amberjack closed - fish tags soon to follow

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  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    16 years is the age of the site.

    My commentary was not posted as a further point of discussion or debate.

    I would appreciate your directing your commentary to the content of the thread. If you insist upon personalizing it, I'll lock the thread.

    Thanks for your cooperation.
    I started replying in this thread as to "What is your answer?" So far all I've seen is Tom saying the current system sucks.

    I'll ask one more time.

    Even one of your FS editors asked if people wanted to make a difference:

    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?227373-Wanted-Thick-skinned-snapper-angler-with-good-ideas&p=2828582&viewfull=1#post2828582

    Private recreational anglers need to find a new solution besides "the current system sucks" and "we just want all of it" as the answer.

    This was an amberjack thread; it (as always) turned into a red snapper thread. Its the same concept. Rec anglers asked for better data so MRFSS spent millions of dollars to improve the data collection system, which became MRIP, and now MRIP2, with MRIP3 coming (new mail survey vs phone). Rec anglers got better data..... which showed even higher catches than before.

    Now......... if those higher catches are transferred to new assessments (many of which have not, including amberjack), then maybe things get better. But MRIP for red snapper is incorporated........

    So what is your answer recreational fishermen? Feds suck, States do it better...... that's all well and good.

    See the link above....... make an effort to fix it. Don't just complain.











    So what is your answer other than "it sucks"?
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    BubbaII wrote: »
    I'll ask one more time.

    Even one of your FS editors asked if people wanted to make a difference:

    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?227373-Wanted-Thick-skinned-snapper-angler-with-good-ideas&p=2828582&viewfull=1#post2828582

    Private recreational anglers need to find a new solution besides "the current system sucks" and "we just want all of it" as the answer.

    This was an amberjack thread; it (as always) turned into a red snapper thread. Its the same concept. Rec anglers asked for better data so MRFSS spent millions of dollars to improve the data collection system, which became MRIP, and now MRIP2, with MRIP3 coming (new mail survey vs phone). Rec anglers got better data..... which showed even higher catches than before.

    Now......... if those higher catches are transferred to new assessments (many of which have not, including amberjack), then maybe things get better. But MRIP for red snapper is incorporated........

    So what is your answer recreational fishermen? Feds suck, States do it better...... that's all well and good.

    See the link above....... make an effort to fix it. Don't just complain.

    So what is your answer other than "it sucks"?

    Fair and final warning.

    Please confine your commentary to the topic and not the commentator.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,896 Captain
    Answer: States take control of waters out to 200 miles. Publicly owned Natural resources should not be exploited for the personal gain of a chosen few. NMFS has had their chance. Their performance has been pretty **** poor, unless you are a big IFQ holder, then I am sure you are smiling all the way to the bank.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    "Private recreational anglers need to find a new solution besides "the current system sucks" and "we just want all of it" as the answer."

    I don't know any person or organization that has said that we "just want all of it" - that is propaganda, plain and simple. What I have heard recreational fishermen call for is fair and equal access, regardless of what type of boat they fish from.

    Yes, the current system does suck, but it sucks not because of what recreational fishermen have done or not done - it sucks because it has been hijacked by corporate interests intent on privatizing our public trust resources for their personal profit while the nation, the fisheries and recreational anglers receive no benefit whatsoever. If you want to find a new solution, this is where we should start - remove the sleazy influences of the enviro groups, their attorneys, and public relations divisions and put the fisheries management into the hands of fisheries managers who actually are working for the best interests of the fish, the fishermen, and the Gulf coastal communities. The only fisheries managers at the table who have a record of doing that is our Gulf states' fisheries departments.

    It sucks because our federal fisheries managers have failed to improve the data as mandated by Congress several years ago. If you want to find a true solution, stop making decisions based on obviously bogus data and first bring the data up to 21st century standards. Relying on random household phone surveys is a joke. Splitting the Gulf recreational red snapper fishery using 1986 data is a joke. The whole NMFS/Gulf Council process has become one big joke.

    It sucks because the management system is broken - there is no palatable solution possible within the current system, as it has been irreparably damaged by the financial influences of mega environmental corporations and their front groups such as The Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholders Alliance, The Charter Fishermans Association, The Gulf Seafood Institute, The Gulf Fishermens Association, Fish For America USA, etc. - ALL of the front groups were created/funded by The Environmental Defense Fund.

    An example of how the system is broken is the sudden supposed urgency for the formation of a Private Rec Advisory Panel. Many of the EDF-funded groups above cried out for the creation of Sector Separation, and of course, they won. The same old EDF-funded faces from those groups demanded for the formation of the private rec AP, and of course they won. What part of Sector Separation do they not get? They got their wish, and are separated, but their continued insistence on putting their noses in the "SEPARATED" private recs' business is hypocritical, ironic, and moronic on their part. I know of no recreational angler or organization that called for the formation of this AP, yet the Gulf Council did it because the system itself is broken - it is a sham.

    The Gulf Angler Focus Group WAS formed by recreational fishermen and organizations to provide the platform for input to the Gulf Council on which direct the private recreational fishermen would like to go. But of course, the Gulf Council created their own Private Rec AP anyways, since the EDF-funded interests can control the makeup of this AP and stack it with pro-catch share people like they have for most of the other APs. Why? Because, as pointed out several times in the past, the final piece of the EDF Plan is Fish Tags for the private recs, and the Private Rec AP will be the vehicle to get that accomplished.

    Hundred of recreational fishermen have applied to be on this Private Rec AP, including myself, but I doubt very seriously that they will choose true recreational fishermen to make up that AP - I guess we'll see, but it is disingenuous to claim that private recs haven't stepped up to the plate to provide new solutions when those solutions are ignored because they don't include the privatization of our fish.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Fair and final warning.

    Please confine your commentary to the topic and not the commentator.

    Fair enough, Sir. My comments re: "it sucks" (reiterated by Mr. Hilton the subsequent post numerous times - so you can't pin that on me) has been repeated here over and over in the past. It was not a specific attachment to a specific commentator. But Mr. Hilton's subsequent detailed post lists the failures, not the solutions or ideas for solutions, which is what I've been asking about.

    As to reference to the Council's AP, as I understand it, based on the actions by the Council earlier this year, it will not be selected or convened until the Gulf Angler Focus Group report is available to the Council for their APs consideration. I don't see that as an urgency for action by the Council's AP.

    No, I don't have answers. I think fish tags (topic of this thread) would be impossible to implement and I laid out why I thought so several pages back, and won't reiterate it here. State control is an option; the 5 Gulf states couldn't agree on the Council's Amendment 39 and it died. LA subsequently backed out of state control by the Graves Bill.

    But, I'm also not a "put meat in the freezer guy". I can still catch (but not keep) all the out-of-season red snapper/amberjack/triggerfish/etc I want (never actually caught a legal amberjack). If me and my buddies can all bring home a couple of pounds of fish for a nice fresh fish dinner (that costs several hundred dollars a pound to possess), so be it. My point being, I enjoy the experience for what it is. A day on the water, a little excitement catching a hard fighting fish, and companionship of friends. I don't have to take 6 red snapper and 4 amberjack home every trip.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    something said in this thread got me curious, so I logged into the Council's ftp site to read old red snapper recreational AP meeting minutes. Now....... having tried that, their archives are terribly incomplete, without Council briefing books etc. But I did find the minutes of the March 2008 red snapper recreational AP, and copied the following interesting motions:

    AD HOC RECREATIONAL RED SNAPPER ADVISORY PANEL
    MARCH 25-26, 2008

    The Advisory Panel moves to recommend that the recreational red snapper season start May 1st through Labor day, with a 2 fish bag limit and 16” size limit and each vessel could land fish on alternate (even/odd) days.
    Motion failed 2-11.


    The Advisory Panel moves to recommend that a catch card program be enacted by the private sector to track effort and landings in the recreational red snapper fishery.
    Motion passed 8-6.

    The Advisory Panel moves to recommend that the Council explore an IFQ system in the private recreational sector.
    Motion passed 10-4.

    The Advisory Panel moves to recommend that the Council explore an IFQ system in the for-hire sector.
    Motion passed 8-6.


    This AP had 2 prior meetings where they basically went over their charge but never had substantial discussion. They also had one more meeting, but without subsequent archives of their minutes (at least I can't find them), I don't know what they concluded in their last meeting.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,892 Captain
    Once again Bubba moves the amberjack thread back to the topic of red snapper.

    Why don't we just change the name of Con Fron to Bubba's views on red snapper management?:shrug
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Once again Bubba moves the amberjack thread back to the topic of red snapper.

    Why don't we just change the name of Con Fron to Bubba's views on red snapper management?:shrug
    Fair and final warning.

    Please confine your commentary to the topic and not the commentator.




    someone else posted this as post 12 on this amberjack thread:
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?227137-Now-amberjack-closed-fish-tags-soon-to-follow&p=2827442&viewfull=1#post2827442

    to which I replied, in general, but they followed up with a red snapper comment:
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?227137-Now-amberjack-closed-fish-tags-soon-to-follow&p=2827911&viewfull=1#post2827911

    to which I replied I didn't think fish tags would work (I didn't say for what species), but they repsonded:
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?227137-Now-amberjack-closed-fish-tags-soon-to-follow&p=2832417&viewfull=1#post2832417

    and it continued from there. None of my early replies were to red snapper. I simply replied to red snapper. I didn't make this a red snapper thread.

    someone continues to make it a red snapper thread:
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?227137-Now-amberjack-closed-fish-tags-soon-to-follow&p=2857390&viewfull=1#post2857390
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,860 AG
    I don't believe there is a single rec fisherman on this forum that gives a **** about Gulf Coastal Communities.
    There sure weren't any recs that cared during the net ban.
    I watched folks lose everything over that.

    I'll never forgive that.

    As far as wanting it all??? Just read some of the comments from the recs, yeah, sure you don't want it all but you'd throw commercials and guides/charters under the bus for a couple more days of fishing to feed your rose bushes.

    I'd bet money that state control of ARS would pit rec against rec.
    I'd almost pay to see that, hell I would pay to see that.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    BubbaII wrote: »
    Fair enough, Sir. My comments re: "it sucks" (reiterated by Mr. Hilton the subsequent post numerous times - so you can't pin that on me) has been repeated here over and over in the past. It was not a specific attachment to a specific commentator. But Mr. Hilton's subsequent detailed post lists the failures, not the solutions or ideas for solutions, which is what I've been asking about.

    "What I have heard recreational fishermen call for is fair and equal access, regardless of what type of boat they fish from."

    " If you want to find a new solution, this is where we should start - remove the sleazy influences of the enviro groups, their attorneys, and public relations divisions....."

    "....put the fisheries management into the hands of fisheries managers who actually are working for the best interests of the fish, the fishermen, and the Gulf coastal communities. The only fisheries managers at the table who have a record of doing that is our Gulf states' fisheries departments."


    There are at least three suggested solutions to the problems we are facing, but I guess some people aren't listening unless the "solutions" include privatization of our fish.

    Speaking of not listening, why is my name still being brought up, by the way?

    I believe fish tags are very much on the table for the headboat "sector" with AM 42 - the headboat EFP was all about them, and I believe they will be doing a referendum for the headboats since fish tags are in fact IFQs. Fish tags are very much on the table for the private recs - simply wait and see what happens in early 2017.

    I was told that the council didn't act on the selection of the private rec AP members due to some internal complications (nothing bad) and some other technicalities preventing them from selecting candidates at that meeting - it had nothing to do with the Gulf Angler Focus Group. If that was the case, then the council should have waited to hear from the GAFG before voting on the creation of the private rec AP itself.

    AM 39 died because it had evolved into something that none of the Gulf states wanted any part of - it was simply another tool in Roy's toolbox to further restrict our seasons/bag limits. The original intent of AM 39 was to give the states more control over the decision making process, yet it was Pam Dana changing her vote against it that prevented it from passing with all 5 state reps voting against it. Doesn't sound like "more control" to me, and believe me, it didn't to the state reps either.

    The whole Gulf Council/NMFS process is all smoke and mirrors to cover their back sides - they are going through the motions to make it look as though they are doing their due diligence, when in reality they are doing the bidding for the benefit of a mega corporation at the expense of the American People. The management of our fisheries needs to be taken out of their inept/corrupt hands and placed in the hands of local fisheries managers (states).
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,896 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    I don't believe there is a single rec fisherman on this forum that gives a **** about Gulf Coastal Communities.
    There sure weren't any recs that cared during the net ban.
    I watched folks lose everything over that.

    I'll never forgive that.

    As far as wanting it all??? Just read some of the comments from the recs, yeah, sure you don't want it all but you'd throw commercials and guides/charters under the bus for a couple more days of fishing to feed your rose bushes.

    I'd bet money that state control of ARS would pit rec against rec.
    I'd almost pay to see that, hell I would pay to see that.

    I am sure there were some market hunters that felt the same way back in the day.
    I disagree with your stance on the economic impact of coastal communities since the net ban. The sales of bay boats, trailers, inshore gear, etc. has never been higher. And it continues to grow. So does the trickle down economic result. This would be a mere fraction of what it is today if the netting was allowed to continue, and thus wiping out many of the species that now are thriving.
    Contrary to your belief that no one cares about the displaced netters, you are wrong there as well! Some of us have relatives that were effected, but they moved on and over came the change.
    I seem to recall that you boast that the mullet harvest, via cast net, is thriving. Seems like the boys are still netting, they are just using nets that are not indiscriminate killers.
    The fact is we DO give a **** about coastal communities.
    I sure hope we get to find out what happens when the states take control...........
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,860 AG
    drgibby wrote: »
    I am sure there were some market hunters that felt the same way back in the day.
    I disagree with your stance on the economic impact of coastal communities since the net ban. The sales of bay boats, trailers, inshore gear, etc. has never been higher. And it continues to grow. So does the trickle down economic result. This would be a mere fraction of what it is today if the netting was allowed to continue, and thus wiping out many of the species that now are thriving.
    Contrary to your belief that no one cares about the displaced netters, you are wrong there as well! Some of us have relatives that were effected, but they moved on and over came the change.
    I seem to recall that you boast that the mullet harvest, via cast net, is thriving. Seems like the boys are still netting, they are just using nets that are not indiscriminate killers.
    The fact is we DO give a **** about coastal communities.
    I sure hope we get to find out what happens when the states take control...........
    Yep, we turned the 20 million lb mullet fishery (bulk of which was food) into a 12 million lb mostly roe fishery which a full time fisherman cannot survive on.
    Families were raised on that..
    And CCA still wants it gone..
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • gruntkinggruntking Posts: 842 Officer
    Ban Art! He's a commie troll.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Please keep your comments on topic and not about the commentator.
  • saltybradsaltybrad Posts: 502 Officer
    gruntking wrote: »
    Ban Art! He's a commie troll.
    Art is still **** because FS rallied to stop them from netting the inshore waters into lifeless sandbars. He and his commie mackeral booted friends retreated into the cradle of the feds to grease the wheels to get the recreational angler back for tacking his easy inshore money.
  • Please keep the conversation focused on the topic, gentlemen.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,860 AG
    saltybrad wrote: »
    Art is still **** because FS rallied to stop them from netting the inshore waters into lifeless sandbars. He and his commie mackeral booted friends retreated into the cradle of the feds to grease the wheels to get the recreational angler back for tacking his easy inshore money.
    lol
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • toomertoomer Posts: 348 Deckhand
    I supported the net ban knowing there would be losers, and hated to see that. I see it in my home state as coal is systematically being shut out of the energy market, not by market forces, but by federal edict. It has helped to further devastate depressed communities. There is little else for folks to do for a living in many of those, so its either be on the dole or go elsewhere.

    Id hope we keep that in mind as it applies to inshore communities. While I think there are/were many other alternatives to make a living in those communities compared to the ones in Appalachia, it was very disruptive and took a toll. It gets tougher and tougher to make a good living at anything these days as our freedoms get more and more constrained.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    "The Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council will convene its Ad Hoc Red Snapper Charter Advisory Panel September 26-27, 2016. The meeting will be held at the Doubletree New Orleans Airport hotel, located at 2150 Veterans Memorial Boulevard, Kenner, Louisiana 70062. The meeting will begin at 1 p.m. on Monday, September 26, and conclude no later than 5 p.m. on Tuesday, September 27th.

    The charge to the Red Snapper For-Hire Advisory Panel is to make recommendations to the Council relative to the design and implementation of flexible measures for the management of red snapper for the for-hire sector.

    The Advisory Panel will review Draft Amendment 41 - Red Snapper Management for Federally Permitted Charter Vessels, refine the amendments goals and objectives, and provide the Council will recommendations on red snapper management for the charter for-hire component. The panel will also evaluate an allocation-based management program that would provide recreational participants with annual allocation in the form of harvest tags for use on the charter vessel of their choice. Finally, the panel will review a draft of the Generic Charter Vessel and Headboat Reporting Requirement Amendment that considers adopting mandatory electronic reporting for federally permitted for-hire vessels in the Gulf."

    Recreational "participants"? I thought the people catching the fish were recreational fishermen, but now we are just participants - I'm sure that has some significance somewhere in their convoluted legaleze the Feds' use to justify this scam.

    Fish tags for use on the charter vessel of their choice? What a cluster. Don't they realize there is no distinction between recreational fishermen? There is no "charter participants" only, nor is there private recreational fishermen only - they are one and the same. For instance, I grew up fishing on headboats, and currently fish on my own boat and charter boats, so how do I get a tag to fish on the charter boat of my choice? I believe that is misleading - the "participants" will most likely not be the ones controlling the tags - that will be the corporations who own the charter businesses. The tags are the vehicle to transfer ownership of the fish away from their customers (and all other Americans) and place it in the hands of the charter corporations.
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,896 Captain
    Just when you think the crock of shi* is full, they manage to add a bit more.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    "The Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council will convene its Ad Hoc Red Snapper Charter Advisory Panel September 26-27, 2016.

    The Advisory Panel will review Draft Amendment 41 - Red Snapper Management for Federally Permitted Charter Vessels, refine the amendments goals and objectives, and provide the Council will recommendations on red snapper management for the charter for-hire component. The panel will also evaluate an allocation-based management program that would provide recreational participants with annual allocation in the form of harvest tags for use on the charter vessel of their choice.
    Tom Hilton wrote:
    "....put the fisheries management into the hands of fisheries managers who actually are working for the best interests of the fish, the fishermen, and the Gulf coastal communities. The only fisheries managers at the table who have a record of doing that is our Gulf states' fisheries departments."
    Tom Hilton wrote:
    I was told that the council didn't act on the selection of the private rec AP members due to some internal complications (nothing bad) and some other technicalities preventing them from selecting candidates at that meeting - it had nothing to do with the Gulf Angler Focus Group. If that was the case, then the council should have waited to hear from the GAFG before voting on the creation of the private rec AP itself.

    In post 105:
    Tom Hilton wrote:
    Please keep your comments on topic...

    In post 107:
    Please keep the conversation focused on the topic, gentlemen.

    I started to paste answers from Council documents that refute the claims above, but what does this have to do with amberjack? I believe I was chastised for continuing a red snapper discussion in an amberjack thread.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Jeffery
    This thread was started on the subject of AMs 41 and 42 and fish tags which the Gulf Council announcement is also about.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,860 AG
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Jeffery
    This thread was started on the subject of AMs 41 and 42 and fish tags which the Gulf Council announcement is also about.

    Stay on topic!!!

    Now the Feds' have closed all recreational fishing for Amberjack until next year.

    http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/fishery_bu...050/index.html

    I wonder what the CFA suckups are thinking now that their EDF/NMFS benefactors have totally screwed the Gulf charter fishing industry along with the rest of us...no snapper, no AJs, no triggers.....what's next?

    Probable course of action is to include AJs and Triggers into AMs 41 and 42 and the new Private Rec APP will no doubt recommend fish tags for the private recs based on totally bogus numbers.

    State management can't come soon enough as these federal management idiots are hell bent on totally destroying recreational fishing as we know it - the days of us going out and catching a fish, placing it in our cooler "FOR FREE" are coming to an end soon if they get their way. We are going to have to pay SOMEBODY for the "privilege" of keeping a fish to eat.

    Read more: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?227137-Now-amberjack-closed-fish-tags-soon-to-follow#ixzz4JcjH8ny4
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Who's Jeffery?

    And the original post said triggers and amberjack would be part of 41 and 42. It didn't have anything to with red snapper......
    Tom Hilton wrote:
    Probable course of action is to include AJs and Triggers into AMs 41 and 42 and the new Private Rec APP will no doubt recommend fish tags for the private recs based on totally bogus numbers.

    41 is strictly red snapper;

    42 is red snapper, gray triggerfish, greater amberjack, gag, and red grouper. big difference in the charter boat 41 and the minimal headboat 42.

    topic of thread is amberjack closed. Am I missing something?
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Subject of thread is amberjack, AMs 41/42 and fish tags. Red snapper is certainly part of that equation.

    If fish tags are such a great idea, and an "allocation-based management program", why not issue fish tags to ALL recreational anglers based on the total recreational allocation?

    Why not ALLOW the RECREATIONAL ANGLERS decide if they want to harvest their allotted fish on a private boat, a charter boat, or a Headboat? Why disenfranchise the charter customers by giving their fish tags to charter/Headboat corporations to control how their customers use their tags?

    Is it really the government's role to reserve a portion of our Public Trust Resources solely for the profit of corporations? Shouldn't free enterprise and "market-based" systems dictate that? This is America, not Socialist Russia.

    Fair questions.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Subject of thread is amberjack, AMs 41/42 and fish tags. Red snapper is certainly part of that equation.

    If fish tags are such a great idea, and an "allocation-based management program", why not issue fish tags to ALL recreational anglers based on the total recreational allocation?

    Why not ALLOW the RECREATIONAL ANGLERS decide if they want to harvest their allotted fish on a private boat, a charter boat, or a Headboat? Why disenfranchise the charter customers by giving their fish tags to charter/Headboat corporations to control how their customers use their tags?

    Is it really the government's role to reserve a portion of our Public Trust Resources solely for the profit of corporations? Shouldn't free enterprise and "market-based" systems dictate that? This is America, not Socialist Russia.

    Fair questions.


    Do you really want that Thomas? I mean have you really thought that through how it would look? Ok lets talk about that a min. First if you issue tags for the whole Rec Quota you would need a tag anytime you harvested a red snapper correct? That means no more open access to state seasons, I'm sure Texans would love that idea. Second you open up that tag idea to every single American not just the ones that live on the coast and fish or a regular basis. Just imagine every charter operator like mine that will send the mass e-mails and phone calls out to the thousands and thousands of customers in their customer base to go get tags. You think its bad now you try it this way and you will soon see just how out numbered you really are. You then are not just dealing with Federally permitted vessels you then include all the state guide boats. This would instantly make you equal with every American that might go fishing next year. Sounds like a great idea to me, but once the locals really look at the math and what their access would really look like you will see that it will not fly.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    You're right Ard, tags will not fly.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Im fine and happy with seasons at this point. With that being said I am not happy at all with stupid non warranted fish closures. If you like you can go back on a couple council meetings and look at what I said about the AJ situation. I was totally against going from a 30 inch to 34 inch fish instantly, I thought way too much by-catch and mortality, and If the people started targeting the larger fish instead of just being happy catching the easier 30 inch fish the quota would get caught up quicker. Well for once in my life I was %100 correct. I lit in to the council at the last meeting about the AJ change. I got the deer in the head lights look and got 4 questions after my testimony about what I said. See they actually think that there was an older age class of fish that "just showed up" in their science. I basically just told them when you tell a group of professional fishermen to go TARGET older fish, thats exactly what they will do, and thats what was done. Im really pissed about it. I feel that in the AJ fishery if your want to control your poundage, reduce by catch mortality, and keep a longer season. Then drop the size limit back to 30, and just do a boat limit of fish, say 3. That would fix your problem. Who really needs more than 3 stinking, worm infested, nasty tasting, no freezing, Amberjack anyways? If I was fishing recreationally, for fun. I would target black or mangrove snapper with light tackle on top, and scamp grouper, in deep water.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Oh and if you want to fix the whole fishery. Just make the GPS less accurate. Say accurate to a couple hundred feet, instead of 5 feet. With todays boats, fishermen, tackle, and technology the fish don't have a chance. 20 years ago only Charter Operators were this good, these days if you have the money to buy the equipment every one is a pro, its a no brainer.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    I'm sure you are happy with seasons that are 4X longer than the rest of American fishermen are allowed. It shows that fish tags aren't going to provide more fishing access than even the truncated seasons we are currently fishing (of course 11 days is extremely truncated and I consider 45 days to be truncated for the Gulf charter boats - we should ALL be fishing at least 6 months/year). If tags are shown to be bad for the limited, known number of for-hire vessels, then just how bad would they be for the large, unknown number of private recs? I would suggest catastrophically bad.

    On your second post, that is assuming that there is a problem with too many fishermen catching too many fish. Personally, I don't believe that is the case - I believe that the Gulf red snapper fishery is badly UNDERFISHED, and is causing untold damage to other species. The red snapper have been expanding their range out to even 600'. Why? Because they are hungry. A six month season would fix all problems posed above.
This discussion has been closed.
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