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I see so many misconceptions here...........

BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
have y'all read

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiU4uHByI3OAhUDFx4KHZUmCkwQFgg5MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsedarweb.org%2Fdocs%2Fpage%2FSeaGrant94_FishMgmtforFishermen.pdf&usg=AFQjCNENWON92VruWGORr3BprcJhlhpQgw

sorry, I can't figure out how to shorten this link

Its really good short summary of how fishery management works, done by Sea Grant Agents. Please note that many of you cite Bob Shipp as God, and he is a contributor to this document.

I'll try to find links to other good layman (i.e. not scientist, just fishermen) documents for you to read too.
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Replies

  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    Well Ive read this:

    450

    and

    450

    and

    450

    and probably the most applicable to this subject:

    61S0TiQ6%2BoL.jpg

    What exactly are the misconceptions that you have? I'll be happy to explain them to you as best I can.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    links?

    pictures are nice but.........

    the NRC document is what led to MRIP vs the underestimated and incorrect MRFSS, which led to adjustments (increases) in recreational red snapper quotas.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    BubbaII wrote: »
    links?

    pictures are nice but.........

    the NRC document is what led to MRIP vs the underestimated and incorrect MRFSS, which led to adjustments (increases) in recreational red snapper quotas.

    They aren't pictures , they are publications available from the NRC.

    Those explain the policies, procedures and methods and how the management process works.

    How would you know that if you have not read them?
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Sorry, I didn't notice all were from NRC; its definitely not obvious for #4. But, yes, I've read/skimmed/perused #1 and #3; think I even have #3 on a bookshelf somewhere in the house. I was only suggesting that you provide links to these documents so others can easily find and read them vs posting a pic of the front cover.

    You can search for the titles here: http://www.nap.edu/. These and several others are available once you type in a title.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    The Pilkeys aren't NRC, but their stuff is fundamental to understanding the politics of the challenges we face as recreational fishermen when engaging NOAA's NMFS irresistible bureaucratic mandates.

    If you don't understand what those four publications transmit, you have no business playing in the game.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    The Pilkeys aren't NRC, but their stuff is fundamental to understanding the politics of the challenges we face as recreational fishermen when engaging NOAA's NMFS irresistible bureaucratic mandates.

    If you don't understand what those four publications transmit, you have no business playing in the game.

    Well, I have no idea what #4 is about; never read it, but I don't know a whole lot of folks who support environmental scientists (NGOs) anyway; they have specific agendas that may or may not be what is appropriate.

    But I also understand your conclusion. You have a closed mind, which is why I came here originally, to see if I could get folks to generate open discussion vs "NMFS sucks", "recs rule", "Comm sucks". I've obviously been proven wrong. Apparently, this board wants to be a ***** and gritch forum.

    Why not talk about ways to fix your problems? Commercials and for-hire did; why can't private recs work for a solution?

    see ya.........
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    I have no closed mind.

    I have no problems.

    I understand. And I understand from your commentary and your lack of familiarity with these basic principles, history and management criteria of study that you don't.

    So how can I help you understand this complicated thing more fully as you requested?
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    you know...... I'm going on an offshore charter trip a couple of weeks from now. I know I'm gonna catch a bunch of red snapper, triggerfish, and greater amberjack. And I'm gonna have a great time CATCHING them, even if I can't keep them. I'm recreationally fishing. Just like I recreationally enjoy a picnic at the park. Its recreation; not hunting and gathering to keep my family fed. I'm going fishing; just like I go down to the local lake and toss a few plugs to see if I can catch a polluted bass....... because its fun to feel that strike, and to fight the fish coming in.

    I don't have to come home with 500 lb of meat from my trip. I come home with a memory of an experience. And maybe, if I'm lucky, we'll catch something I can keep to have a fish cook out that night for me and my boat buddies ..... and I'm good with that.

    Why is there this "meat" mentality for "recreational" fishing?

    Think outside the box. Mr. Hilton just ranted about snapper fish tags. No, its a bad idea from logistic reasons.

    Why don't you private anglers figure out a solution instead of just b****ing about the status quo?
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    How can I help you?
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    How can I help you?

    Actively generate a discussion of how to fix private anglers issues, instead of just blaming someone else.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    I don't recall me doing that.

    That does seem to be a recurring theme in your posting however.

    So how can I help you and us to move beyond your often expressed bias against recreational fishing interests?
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    I don't recall me doing that.

    That does seem to be a recurring theme in your posting however.

    So how can I help you and us to move beyond your often expressed bias against recreational fishing interests?

    When did I ever say I had a bias against recreational fishing interests? I'm a minimal part time recreational fisherman myself. This isn't about snook and tarpon, which are your targets, this is about reef fish. Commercial solved their problem; for-hire has proposed a solution to their problem, private rec interests on the Council have balked at doing anything other than "steal". This board is just "we get screwed because its their fault".

    Offer up some options for solutions instead of whining and blaming. As a respected moderator, you have that opportunity. You and Tom both.
  • gettinwetgettinwet Posts: 1,366 Officer
    The misconception appears to be where the real economic value lies. Recreational angling has a much greater economic impact (any way you want to measure it - jobs supported, revenues generated, etc) with much less landings of fish/shellfish (and this doesn't factor in catch and release or by catch).

    So, I agree we - the recreational anglers - should find a way to fix our problems. We need to let our elected officials know who really butters their bread.

    My first suggestion would be to ban commercial harvesting of any fish/shellfish that requires a closed season and/or bag limits for recreational anglers. It is simply not a sustainable commercial resource.

    I also think water quality - especially marine estuaries and freshwater wetlands - needs to take precedent over development plus fertilizer/septic bans/restrictions need to be put in place. Also, waste water needs to be filtered by retention ponds.

    How about the rest of you? What are your thoughts? Shouldn't we take our collective voice and speak truth to the powers that be?? They after all are currently selling it out from under us.
    There are only so many casts in life, so shut up and fish!!
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    gettinwet wrote: »
    The misconception appears to be where the real economic value lies. Recreational angling has a much greater economic impact (any way you want to measure it - jobs supported, revenues generated, etc) with much less landings of fish/shellfish (and this doesn't factor in catch and release or by catch).

    So, I agree we - the recreational anglers - should find a way to fix our problems. We need to let our elected officials know who really butters their bread.

    My first suggestion would be to ban commercial harvesting of any fish/shellfish that requires a closed season and/or bag limits for recreational anglers. It is simply not a sustainable commercial resource.

    I also think water quality - especially marine estuaries and freshwater wetlands - needs to take precedent over development plus fertilizer/septic bans/restrictions need to be put in place. Also, waste water needs to be filtered by retention ponds.

    How about the rest of you? What are your thoughts? Shouldn't we take our collective voice and speak truth to the powers that be?? They after all are currently selling it out from under us.

    Well, you're crossing several agencies when you go from fisheries to water quality and inland. But, you are on the right track, but your post, with all these various agencies, shows what part of the problem is.

    But closing commercial in favor of recreational is against Magnuson Act.

    But thank you for putting forward something other than "NMFS sucks; the states can do it better" into this forum, which others don't seem to want to do. I don't think folks realize how much would be put on the states; LA just said "no thank you" because of the cost that HR 3094 (or whatever it is) would put on their state.
  • gettinwetgettinwet Posts: 1,366 Officer
    BubbaII wrote: »
    Well, you're crossing several agencies when you go from fisheries to water quality and inland. But, you are on the right track, but your post, with all these various agencies, shows what part of the problem is.

    But closing commercial in favor of recreational is against Magnuson Act.

    But thank you for putting forward something other than "NMFS sucks; the states can do it better" into this forum, which others don't seem to want to do.

    I wouldn't "close" commercial just apply the same bag limits/seasons for all individuals - whether fishing for fun or for money.
    There are only so many casts in life, so shut up and fish!!
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    BubbaII wrote: »

    Offer up some options for solutions instead of whining and blaming. As a respected moderator, you have that opportunity. You and Tom both.

    When you see me whining and complaining please feel free to remind me and alert the site management to my actions.

    In the meantime, I suggest that you acquire those reference materials I suggested as a foundation in this complicated study, learn their basic concepts in rule making and procedure and then when you feel comfortable in understanding the principles of the management process, engage the board in a more positive and productive way, rather than participating solely in what has been little more than tournaments of urination with my co- moderator.

    That would be very helpful in advancing our common goal of achieving fairness in reasonable, scientifically based regulatory strategies.

    Thanks.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    gettinwet wrote: »
    I wouldn't "close" commercial just apply the same bag limits/seasons for all individuals - whether fishing for fun or for money.

    That's actually an interesting concept. You do realize that commercials could still fish year round for red snapper under their IFQ, even restricted to some possession limit per trip. Quotas are quotas.

    I think the limitation here is folks (including me in this discussion, because I'm assuming you are) are considering Gulf red snapper. Think bigger.........
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    When you see me whining and complaining please feel free to remind me and alert the site management to my actions.

    In the meantime, I suggest that you acquire those reference materials I suggested as a foundation in this complicated study, learn their basic concepts in rule making and procedure and then when you feel comfortable in understanding the principles of the management process, engage the board in a more positive and productive way, rather than participating solely in what has been little more than tournaments of urination with my co- moderator.

    That would be very helpful in advancing our common goal of achieving fairness in reasonable, scientifically based regulatory strategies.

    Thanks.

    you are making this personal. I never said "Gary Colecchio" whined. I said this forum does. I've read 2 of those documents, as I stated. They are somewhat dated now, and only generally applicable.

    I said you and Mr. Hilton have the opportunity here to generate some positive discussion. So what are your thoughts of how to fix private offshore angling? Tom has made it clear that fish tags don't work. What does? Offer up a suggestion......
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    I am trying to help you feel more comfortable and confident in enjoying your experience here with us in ConFron.

    I have provided you with the tools I use for that purpose from my own library, from which I prepared myself as the governor's nominee to the Gulf Council.

    If there is anything else I can help you with to better prepare yourself for future conversations, please do not hesitate to contact me.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • HootsterHootster Posts: 48 Greenhorn
    But closing commercial in favor of recreational is against Magnuson Act

    If a species is over fished then close it for everyone.
    That seems to be the best solution to the problem.
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,912 Captain
    Maybe it is time to reconsider Magnuson. Times and situations change. Sooner or later everything needs a fresh coat of paint...............
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,898 AG
    2014 the dockside (boat) value of Florida's commercial fisheries was 261 million and change, that doesn't reflect the wholesale/retail, and restaurant value.
    That also doesn't reflect the total economic value.

    I can also remember when shallow water groupers had a closed commercial season while the recreational sector continued to pillage unabated.
    Didn't see nor hear any of y'all calling for restraints for the recreational sector.
    BTW, I enjoyed some fresh ARS over the weekend, as a consumer I sure appreciate access to fresh quality seafood.

    Suck it up Buttercup!
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • bay20bay20 Posts: 1,491 Officer
    Public resource should be available to everyone. If there is a problem than it should be shutdown to everyone. Pretty much the only solution i can see NOAA and all their stupid councils coming up with for the recreational angler is to purchase individual stamps for everything that swims in Federal waters. The new fishing license should only cost around $100.00 a year instead of $17. Wonder how much our governments minds and ways of thinking would change if every rec angler said screw it and didn't fish for a year, seeing all the revenue lost might open a few eyes.
  • toomertoomer Posts: 348 Deckhand
    I have played the policy game in another arena, and any policy should develop from a core principle or set of principles. In the case of fisheries I offer this: You can't catch and sell what I can't catch, keep and eat.

    Dont dismiss that as over simplistic. A number of things could be done that would satisfy this tenet.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,898 AG
    toomer wrote: »
    I have played the policy game in another arena, and any policy should develop from a core principle or set of principles. In the case of fisheries I offer this: You can't catch and sell what I can't catch, keep and eat.

    Dont dismiss that as over simplistic. A number of things could be done that would satisfy this tenet.
    I can't catch and sell red fish or snook, do you wanna go down that road?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • toomertoomer Posts: 348 Deckhand
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    I can't catch and sell red fish or snook, do you wanna go down that road?

    Haven't we gone down that road in hunting game?
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,912 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    2014 the dockside (boat) value of Florida's commercial fisheries was 261 million and change, that doesn't reflect the wholesale/retail, and restaurant value.
    That also doesn't reflect the total economic value.

    I can also remember when shallow water groupers had a closed commercial season while the recreational sector continued to pillage unabated.
    Didn't see nor hear any of y'all calling for restraints for the recreational sector.
    BTW, I enjoyed some fresh ARS over the weekend, as a consumer I sure appreciate access to fresh quality seafood.

    Suck it up Buttercup!
    Speaking of unabated pillage, reminds me of the two mile long string of short red grouper I saw floating behind a long-liner running gear in thirty fathoms two weeks ago....................
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,898 AG
    drgibby wrote: »
    Speaking of unabated pillage, reminds me of the two mile long string of short red grouper I saw floating behind a long-liner running gear in thirty fathoms two weeks ago....................
    Sure you did.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,898 AG
    toomer wrote: »
    Haven't we gone down that road in hunting game?
    for some species, still a fur trade.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,898 AG
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Sure you did.
    Catch any wahoo past 150 miles.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
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