Home East Central General Fishing & The Outdoors

Email Contact List - Mosquito Lagoon / IRL Algae Problems & Fish Kill

2»

Replies

  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,922 AG
    Net 30 wrote: »
    I happened to see this presentation in person and I believe it was in the end of 2012 or early 2013? Seems to me that we are dealing with a situation today that has become exponentially worse since 2012. I think it's a safe bet that if you looked for the restored seagrass beds that were mentioned in the report, you would find sand or muck today.

    I'm not sure that the "victories" claimed in the slides have done much to prevent the 2016 conditions. I think the efforts to clean the water entering the Lagoon were commendable but have not kept pace with the perfect storm of pathogens entering the system today.

    I would not describe the HAB event as pathogenic. It's a more of a change in water chemistry that initiates it. The HAB then maintains itself with the nutrients from the wildlife killed. If there is enough source and favorable continuing environmental conditions, the cycle continues and may accelerate.

    This is what happened in 2011 and is repeating now.

    Once the cycle begins and reaches a point where it becomes self-sustaining it's difficult to change by modifying the input. This is similar to the conditions we are experiencing with the sea grass die off n Florida Bay. Those conditions are thought to be attributed to lack of fresh water entering the system. Most of that was identified as resulting from drought conditions local to the area.

    Sea grasses have a limited range of salinity tolerance. Impacts are closely related to rainfall. That rainfall becomes stormwater. In urban areas the stormwater then carries nutrients and bacteria from urban sources and creates an environment favorable to HAB events.

    Not much can be done about the weather, but the stormwater and the sources of the nutrient inflows can be regulated and mitigated with engineering solutions.

    All it takes is money and the political will to raise and spend it. That money will come from you, personally in the form of increased taxation and in the case of septic tank replacement, property assessments. And a lot of it is going to be needed. That's what you are committing to when you write and call.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • J-SeaJ-Sea Posts: 202 Officer
    Gary and Duck,

    In you opinion, would another inlet or 2, say at Spessard Holland golf course and the north end of PAFB (maybe even the end of bethel creek), help or hurt the lagoon at this point. Would this 'something' be better than the nothing we continue to get? I understand the salinity level issues, just seems like an imperfect fix (re: compromise) would be better than nothing, if it at least helps some. An inlet or 2 seems more doable than reworking all of the drainage in east central Florida, removing all septic tanks (even aerobic ones?) and banning all fertilizing. Maybe the state could even mandate some sort of water exchange at port Canaveral? At that point we could begin to work on these more scientifically correct, extremely less do-able solutions (septic, drainage, fertilizers). We could even fill the inlets in over time if we get other measures in place.

    I hear the FDEP and ACOE are cutting inlet permits left and right...
  • gettinwetgettinwet Posts: 1,366 Officer
    I would not describe the HAB event as pathogenic. It's a more of a change in water chemistry that initiates it. The HAB then maintains itself with the nutrients from the wildlife killed. If there is enough source and favorable continuing environmental conditions, the cycle continues and may accelerate.

    This is what happened in 2011 and is repeating now.

    Once the cycle begins and reaches a point where it becomes self-sustaining it's difficult to change by modifying the input. This is similar to the conditions we are experiencing with the sea grass die off n Florida Bay. Those conditions are thought to be attributed to lack of fresh water entering the system. Most of that was identified as resulting from drought conditions local to the area.

    Sea grasses have a limited range of salinity tolerance. Impacts are closely related to rainfall. That rainfall becomes stormwater. In urban areas the stormwater then carries nutrients and bacteria from urban sources and creates an environment favorable to HAB events.

    Not much can be done about the weather, but the stormwater and the sources of the nutrient inflows can be regulated and mitigated with engineering solutions.

    All it takes is money and the political will to raise and spend it. That money will come from you, personally in the form of increased taxation and in the case of septic tank replacement, property assessments. And a lot of it is going to be needed. That's what you are committing to when you write and call.

    And it is about dang time too!! Even though probably 20 years too late. We've destroyed the goose that lays the golden eggs.......turning what draws everyone here into a cess pool. I've said it before "real" Florida never stood a chance against "Disney" Florida.
    There are only so many casts in life, so shut up and fish!!
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,922 AG
    J-Sea wrote: »
    Gary and Duck...


    I would like to say that I know, but I don't know. I do know that I can apply lessons learned from other geographies in South Florida. Those lessons center on not mitigating the symptoms, but eliminating the cause. That surgery is going to be costly and painful to you, the patient. Since there is no insurance for this affliction, you will need to pay a high premium to resolve it. That will not be satisfied by letter writing campaign and noise, bit direct participation by individual action and purse.

    That involves regulating residential and agricultural fertilizer use and conversion of individual residential septic tank systems to centralized advanced wastewater treatment facilities.

    That is something you can do directly and does not require the gnashing of teeth, ripping of clothes,saturation of social media, and lamenting to the Lord's heavens.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 21,116 AG
    J-Sea wrote: »
    Gary and Duck,

    In you opinion, would another inlet or 2, say at Spessard Holland golf course and the north end of PAFB (maybe even the end of bethel creek), help or hurt the lagoon at this point. Would this 'something' be better than the nothing we continue to get? I understand the salinity level issues, just seems like an imperfect fix (re: compromise) would be better than nothing, if it at least helps some. An inlet or 2 seems more doable than reworking all of the drainage in east central Florida, removing all septic tanks (even aerobic ones?) and banning all fertilizing. Maybe the state could even mandate some sort of water exchange at port Canaveral? At that point we could begin to work on these more scientifically correct, extremely less do-able solutions (septic, drainage, fertilizers). We could even fill the inlets in over time if we get other measures in place.

    I hear the FDEP and ACOE are cutting inlet permits left and right...

    I agree with Gary in that....I don't know.
    What I do think is it will detract from what THE REAL FIX IS.....It will take time( lots of time to do modeling, secure permitting, get bids yada yada yada) money.. BOATLOADS of it!
    And this for what?...a questionable partial fix?

    How about the "unintended consequences".... You can bet their would be "unforeseen issues" that will crop up.

    It is a bitter pill.....and I'm sorry I cannot sugar coat it....but that would be disingenuous.
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • 321Angler321Angler Posts: 1 Greenhorn
    Thank you,great job!
  • gettinwetgettinwet Posts: 1,366 Officer
    I would like to say that I know, but I don't know. I do know that I can apply lessons learned from other geographies in South Florida. Those lessons center on not mitigating the symptoms, but eliminating the cause. That surgery is going to be costly and painful to you, the patient. Since there is no insurance for this affliction, you will need to pay a high premium to resolve it. That will not be satisfied by letter writing campaign and noise, bit direct participation by individual action and purse.

    That involves regulating residential and agricultural fertilizer use and conversion of individual residential septic tank systems to centralized advanced wastewater treatment facilities.

    That is something you can do directly and does not require the gnashing of teeth, ripping of clothes,saturation of social media, and lamenting to the Lord's heavens.

    If anything was going to be done without requiring "the gnashing of teeth, ripping of clothes, saturation of social media, and lamenting to the Lord's heavens" then it would have been already. The issues have been no secret for at least 2 decades now but build, build, build, and build some more still continues..................while relatively small appropriations for conservation efforts are line item vetoed.
    There are only so many casts in life, so shut up and fish!!
  • J-SeaJ-Sea Posts: 202 Officer
    Something can be better than nothing and usually political issues require a compromise, realism not idealism. Of course ideally we would fix all issues and hand and also remove the earth causeways. In reality I am nearly certain this ideal solution will never happen so maybe something like bored outflows under A1A connecting the river to the ocean is better than nothing (similar to the stink hole outflows in south florida or the St. Lucie power plant outflows on a smaller more numerous scale).

    That is all we have gotten to this point. Nothing.

    Anyone know if Aerobic septics are a reasonable alternative to sewage treatment? I wonder what percentage they reduce the nutrients percolating towards the river? You could also target the worst offenders instead of everyone... Just thoughts...

    Something along these lines (throw some **** ideas at the wall and see what sticks), if studied and determined to be effective enough, would seem more realistic and more implementable than the ideal solution, which I believe is sadly unattainable.
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 21,116 AG
    Dr: " You have stage 4 metastatic cancer...we will need to go with the most aggressive Chemo and Radiation with possible surgery"

    You: " Do you think we could just try a Z pack ....maybe some Advil too? ... It will be cheaper...and you cannot say it won't help"
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • SnookMan772SnookMan772 Posts: 661 Officer
    I'm with the OP! Emails and calls sent "yes Gary and Duckman... For what it's worth...."

    I can't sit back and do nothing, even if the results equal nothing..
  • Captain HookCaptain Hook Posts: 107 Officer
    Everyone is invited to attend the 2nd Indian River Lagoon Workshop.

    *

    March 29th 9:99-12:00

    Indian River County Commission Chambers

    1801 27th Street

    Vero Beach, Florida 32960

    *

    Online registration at www.ircgov.com then follow the link on the home page.

    *

    For those who cannot attend you may watch the program live and reply on our local government channel or streaming live at www.ircgov.com

    *

    There will be two speakers that will present potential solutions for the IRL. A ocean to lagoon pumping station that has been operational in Destin Harbor that has proved to dramatically improve water quality. Also we will have a presentation on a water scrubbing technology that again is a proved success story. These and more speakers will present recent and potential solutions to help improve the water quality in the IRL.

    *

    *

    Indian River Lagoon Workshop

    “Are we making any progress?”

    ***********************

    Agenda

    8:30-9:00******** Registration

    *

    9:00-9:05 ******* Welcome, Invocation, Pledge Tim Zorc

    *

    9:05-9:15******** 2016 Legislative update Representative Debbie Mayfield

    *

    9:15-9:40******** Indian River Lagoon Council

    Indian River Lagoon National Estuary Program

    *********************** Dr. Duane De Freese, Ph.D.

    *********************** Sebastian, Florida*

    *

    9:40-10:00****** Fertilizer Enforcement / Storm Water Education

    *********************** Alexis Peralta

    Indian River County Public Works

    *

    10:00-10:25**** Ground Water movement and Septic Tanks

    *********************** Osprey South Relief Canal Algae Turf Scrubber

    *********************** Vincent Burke PE

    *********************** Indian River County Utilities Director

    *********** ***********

    10:25-10:30**** Break

    *

    10:30-10:50**** Septic to Sewer and ways to get there.

    Carter Taylor

    Indian River Neighborhood Association

    Vero Beach, Florida

    ***********************

    10:50-11:15**** Seagrass and Water Quality

    *********************** Dr. Charles Jacoby Environmental Scientist

    St Johns River Water Management District

    Palatka, Florida

    *

    11:15-11:40**** Nutrient remediation water technology. “Water Scrubbing”

    Bill Eggers Scientist

    AquaFiber®™ Winter Park, Florida

    *

    11:40-12:10**** Bethel Creek, Indian River Lagoon & Destin Harbor, what do they have in common?

    *********************** Destin Harbor Pump Station

    *********************** David Bazylak City of Destin, Florida

    Where do we go from here? and Q&A

    *

    *

    *

    Sincerely

    *

    Tim Zorc

    Board of County Commissioners

    District 3

    1801 27th Street – Building A

    Vero Beach, Florida 32960

    *

    [email protected]

    772-226-1492

    *
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,922 AG
    As suspected.


    Per . Duane De Freese

    The IRL has had a continuous green algae bloom for some time at various locations. More recently the brown algae bloom we currently see manifested several months ago. This new brown algae is in fact, new to the IRL. Its outer membrane is resistant to what we would call normal degradation. In fact, it is thriving in low temperature and low oxygen levels. To add insult to injury, the brown algae is also causing a decrease in oxygen levels. Hence, the fish kill we witnessed the last several days. We have yet to receive the toxicology reports on the dead fish, but it is pretty clear to everyone that they died due to hypoxemia (lack of oxygen).


    At this point, we can’t stop the bloom. In fact, we can’t stop any bloom, once it has started on the scale of the IRL. I know that everyone is looking for a quick solution. Sadly, the solution for this episode is to let it run its course.

    That’s where we are, now I will attempt to answer the question of how we got here. I’m not going to start pointing fingers at every civic leader that didn’t do enough or every resident that put grass clipping in the storm drain. That negative rhetoric doesn’t solve the problem. The cause of the degradation of our lagoon is excessive nutrient load and weather.
    Excessive nutrient loading is an increase in the levels of nitrogen, phosphorus and sulfur. Although these elements occur naturally, excessive amounts cause contamination. The causes of this contamination is due to several factors.
    Nutrient Loading

    o Septic Tanks: There is estimated to be close to 300,000 septic tanks in the IRL district. That is not a misprint. Three Hundred Thousand!!! Along with a high water table and deterioration of the tanks themselves, massive amounts of human waste finds its way into the lagoon. This issue isn’t new. It needs to be addressed and fixed!!

    o Yard Waste: Grass clippings and palm fronds are commonly tossed to the curb or thrown over a seawall. Over time this waste settles to the bottom of a canal as muck waiting to release its unwanted nutrients.

    o Fertilizer/Pesticides: Inherently, Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Sulfur added to lawns and vegetation, can run off due to rain or intended watering.
    Weather

    o Weather is certainly a mitigating factor concerning the lagoon. Cooler temperatures generally slow down algae bloom growth, while higher temperatures accelerate the bloom. As I mentioned previously, the current bloom survived the cold season, perhaps due to the unusually high temperatures and complexity of its cellular structure.

    It appears that this bloom was a perfect storm in waiting. The higher than average temperatures over the winter. The nutrient loading from septic tank outflow. The increased duration of the cyclical green algae blooms and the excessive amount of muck lying on the bottom of the IRL.


    TL;DR,

    Unseasonal rainfall added additional nutrients from storm water and septic systems (300,000) and fed an HAB that dropped the DO to almost none.

    Djnw7T1.png
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 21,116 AG
    Everyone is invited to attend the 2nd Indian River Lagoon Workshop.

    *

    March 29th 9:99-12:00

    Indian River County Commission Chambers

    1801 27th Street

    Vero Beach, Florida 32960

    *

    Online registration at www.ircgov.com then follow the link on the home page.

    *

    For those who cannot attend you may watch the program live and reply on our local government channel or streaming live at www.ircgov.com

    *

    There will be two speakers that will present potential solutions for the IRL. A ocean to lagoon pumping station that has been operational in Destin Harbor that has proved to dramatically improve water quality. Also we will have a presentation on a water scrubbing technology that again is a proved success story. These and more speakers will present recent and potential solutions to help improve the water quality in the IRL.

    *

    *

    Indian River Lagoon Workshop

    “Are we making any progress?”

    ***********************

    Agenda

    8:30-9:00******** Registration

    *

    9:00-9:05 ******* Welcome, Invocation, Pledge Tim Zorc

    *

    9:05-9:15******** 2016 Legislative update Representative Debbie Mayfield

    *

    9:15-9:40******** Indian River Lagoon Council

    Indian River Lagoon National Estuary Program

    *********************** Dr. Duane De Freese, Ph.D.

    *********************** Sebastian, Florida*

    *

    9:40-10:00****** Fertilizer Enforcement / Storm Water Education

    *********************** Alexis Peralta

    Indian River County Public Works

    *

    10:00-10:25**** Ground Water movement and Septic Tanks

    *********************** Osprey South Relief Canal Algae Turf Scrubber

    *********************** Vincent Burke PE

    *********************** Indian River County Utilities Director

    *********** ***********

    10:25-10:30**** Break

    *

    10:30-10:50**** Septic to Sewer and ways to get there.

    Carter Taylor

    Indian River Neighborhood Association

    Vero Beach, Florida

    ***********************

    10:50-11:15**** Seagrass and Water Quality

    *********************** Dr. Charles Jacoby Environmental Scientist

    St Johns River Water Management District

    Palatka, Florida

    *

    11:15-11:40**** Nutrient remediation water technology. “Water Scrubbing”

    Bill Eggers Scientist

    AquaFiber®™ Winter Park, Florida

    *

    11:40-12:10**** Bethel Creek, Indian River Lagoon & Destin Harbor, what do they have in common?

    *********************** Destin Harbor Pump Station

    *********************** David Bazylak City of Destin, Florida

    Where do we go from here? and Q&A

    *

    *

    *

    Sincerely

    *

    Tim Zorc

    Board of County Commissioners

    District 3

    1801 27th Street – Building A

    Vero Beach, Florida 32960

    *

    [email protected]

    772-226-1492

    *

    You should ask the IR county commissioners " Why is I.R. county not a member of the IR lagoon council ? ....Is it indeed fact that the city of Sebastian ponied up the money to get Indian river county a seat on and a voice on how any money for projects will be used " ....That's a good one!

    If they don't bums rush you out of the meeting after that one...hit them with " Is it true, that it took three attempts to get a partial year fertilizer ban in effect...even though it would not cost the county one red cent...just to pass a rule? "

    You will have fun....
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,922 AG
    :grin
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 21,116 AG
    :grin

    You should come over for this Gary....I'll buy you lunch....I'm sure I can get kicked out before noon....:rotflmao
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • BrentspeedgsxrBrentspeedgsxr Posts: 262 Deckhand
    http://floridawaterdaily.com/

    Theres a website a friend told me about, it has lots of news information about legislative efforts regarding the various waterways within our state. They also have a facebook page which seems to have almost no views... yet it gets updated constantly. Its worth a look, and a share.

    Ill make some calls tomorrow to our elected incompetents. I dont know if it'll help, but it wont hurt... so its worth a few phone calls.
  • fish_stixfish_stix Posts: 1,390 Officer
    This is really funny! After years and years of approving every development project that was proposed along the river and the ocean they've been bitten in the butt, HARD! Now they want the state's taxpayers to foot the bill for the cleanup. Idiots! Brevard County did this to itself, no help was needed or asked for from the rest of the state. We crapped in our own nest and now, like a bunch of Democrat whiners we want someone else to buy us out of it. This is not going to go away any time soon; the same algae problem in Texas several years ago took 4 years just to get it under control and the effort is still ongoing to rectify the water and wildlife problems. Every golf course in Brevard and every septic tank east of the St. Johns River eventually sends fertilizer or sewage to the Indian River. Golf courses dump TONS of fertilizer into the lagoon system. Sure, we have laws against this but guess what folks, money talks. Golfers don't want to play on less than bright green grass so the owners look the other way when maintenance dumps tons of fertilizer on the course. Your tax dollars at work!
  • gettinwetgettinwet Posts: 1,366 Officer
    duckmanJR wrote: »
    You should ask the IR county commissioners " Why is I.R. county not a member of the IR lagoon council ? ....Is it indeed fact that the city of Sebastian ponied up the money to get Indian river county a seat on and a voice on how any money for projects will be used " ....That's a good one!

    If they don't bums rush you out of the meeting after that one...hit them with " Is it true, that it took three attempts to get a partial year fertilizer ban in effect...even though it would not cost the county one red cent...just to pass a rule? "

    You will have fun....

    I'm going to have to take the day off from work - are we allowed to use powerpoint!!!!
    There are only so many casts in life, so shut up and fish!!
  • RStyleRStyle Posts: 1,488 Officer
    I wish this could become a nationwide story like the BP spill. I can see how the loss or severe decline in the
    quality of most of the state estuaries due to overpopulation and poor environmental controls would make
    a good story for people all over to see what happens when you do not plan accordingly and ignore mother nature's warnings.
    It can include Apalachicola, Indian River Lagoon, Lake Apopka, St Lucie Estuary, Florida Bay, etc.
    Very soon inshore fishing, kayaking, paddle boarding, swimming will be limited to close proximity to inlets.

    ( on a personal note I think that the billions of dollars used to build a non profitable train from Miami to Orlando could
    Have been used to enhance the quality of our lagoon)
  • whole lot of lovewhole lot of love Posts: 50 Deckhand
    been living fishing in merritt is. now 30 yrs in those yr ive cleaned a heck of alot dog poop. im good at it. you get a shovel garbage bag its easy. yet ive never seen one neighbor do the same. Never! they just let it get run over by the mowers and guess what it eventually ends up in the canals. as long as the average voter only last 10 yrs or so we are fighting a losing battle.
  • J-SeaJ-Sea Posts: 202 Officer
    Dr: " You have stage 4 metastatic cancer...we will need to go with the most aggressive Chemo and Radiation with possible surgery"

    You: " Do you think we could just try a Z pack ....maybe some Advil too? ... It will be cheaper...and you cannot say it won't help"

    That's apples to oranges. You actually could have both of those. answer honestly.

    Would you rather have nothing or something?

    Like the stones said - you can't always get what you want.
  • saltybumsaltybum Posts: 1,613 Captain
    Don't count on Bill Nelson doing anything. A few years back ( don't know how he did it ) he got the three richest counties in S.E. Florida exempt from Obama's health care laws. Hmmmm. sold himself to the rich DEVILS that care only about $$$$$. It's true, research it.

    As Gary and duck and many others have already stated our money hungry corrupt govt. officials care only about "What'$ in it for me".
    The Port authority has already shown they have zero regard for the north end of our lagoon or any other part of it for that matter. Certainly can't look to them and their DEEEEEEEEEEP pocket$$$ to help clean up any of this even though tourism will be affected in the long run and all they think about is more and bigger ships in the port.
    I wonder how much sewage they pump into the port under the guise of darkness only to have it ultimately go through the locks into the lagoon or nearby beach waters.
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 21,116 AG
    J-Sea wrote: »
    Dr: " You have stage 4 metastatic cancer...we will need to go with the most aggressive Chemo and Radiation with possible surgery"

    You: " Do you think we could just try a Z pack ....maybe some Advil too? ... It will be cheaper...and you cannot say it won't help"

    That's apples to oranges. You actually could have both of those. answer honestly.

    Would you rather have nothing or something?

    Like the stones said - you can't always get what you want.


    Well, If you read the peer reviewed science...it is possible that it would actually hurt...more than help.

    So, the honest answer is if you are going to do something that has little if any perceived benefit...with the REAL possibility of doing *more damage*...I say do nothing...and push for REAL fixes.
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
Sign In or Register to comment.