Skip to main content
Home Conservation Front

Red grouper set to move to 2 per day May 7th

13»

Replies

  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Got TA Go wrote: »
    Huckleberry... I'll be your Huckleberry.

    So far as I can tell, and I may be wrong, and I'll live with that.... You come across as an agitator. Not unlike those protestors that were paid to inflame the Ferguson or Baltimore riots.

    If I'm wrong, I'll stand in the light of day and admit it.



    If I'm right... Your days are numbered.

    Sincerely,
    Rob

    Rob, don't really understand your point. What I just said there is the truth. The recreational lobby a year or so back worked on a tag program in a AP for a couple of days and the end of the meeting the CCA rejected everything saying it was a catch share and they wanted no part of it. If it aggravates you, about things that are actually happening in the world of fish politics I'm sorry for ya, just stating the fact that no one has never taken recreational tags seriously as a possible management plan that would increase the access of recreational fishermen to the resource. If not agreeing with you or showing you a different picture of the situation aggravates you then sorry about that. These topics usually take some thick skin.
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Captain
    Huck... Not only do I have thick skin, I stand in the light of day for who/what I am.

    I might have a screen name of Got TA Go, which I use on every social media format I am part of, everyone knows who I am and how to get hold of me.

    I'm Rob Harris, live in Key West Florida, member of SAFMC Snapper Grouper AP and Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary Advisory Council.

    My phone number and email are easy to find... 305-587-6718 and [email protected]

    I have 2 Charter Boats... "Got TA Go" in Key West and "Easy Rider" in Freeport Tx.

    I grew up Commercial fishing and then spend a career in the Navy. Key West was my final duty station, and I am still here.

    Normally, when I get into conversations via the Keyboard with folks, I try and make sure the other person is up to the task. Hard to tell with a name like Huckleberry.

    I am familiar with the Tag idea from its inception. The fact that CCA changed its position doesn't change the fact that they were for it before they were against it.

    As far as I know, there is no recreational lobby.

    Yes, there are groups that present themselves, but not a single organization that would could be considered a "lobby".

    I'm just trying to ascertain which side of the fence you are standing on.

    Most the players I know either personally or from other means.

    My skin is thick, and my ability to admit when I am wrong is strong, I don't seek to be the smartest person in the room, and in the rooms I find myself in.... normally I'm not even close.

    So what can I hope to learn from you?

    Sincerely,
    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    I doubt you will learn anything from me, you seem to be a smart man. If I make you think about different things on your on then our time is well spent.

    I must be mistaken I was to presume that the CCA and the RFA was the premier lobby groups for the purely recreational angler. If you look at their pages they come off as that. If this is not true then that could be the reason that most all of the purely recreational anglers feel that they are alone and unrepresented. This is the reason I feel there needs to be a group that truly represents the purely recreational angler and attempt to come to the table with possible solutions to their problems, instead of fighting other sectors that have already done just that. I will add that saying that the CCA is not a "lobby" is very far from the truth. They are a very strong lobby at the state level and in DC, but for "who" I guess is the question.


    "My skin is thick, and my ability to admit when I am wrong is strong, I don't seek to be the smartest person in the room, and in the rooms I find myself in.... normally I'm not even close."

    I will agree that I mostly fit into that category also, but I am involved.

    I fit in the Federally permitted side of the fence with two 40 foot charter boats and a 35 year business in which I have worked on since I was 12, put myself thru college at FSU and came back to pursue the Charter Boat life.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    I'm not talking into great detail about deer, or going into a lottery for Elk tags like they do in the western states, but from what I understand, it doesn't matter if you are hunting on private property or on a guided hunt, the hunter controls his own tags, correct? The guide doesn't have a large number of tags given to him by the government does he?

    What the CFA/EDF boys are pushing for is fish tags for private recs but NOT for their customers. According to the feds' numbers shown by Bob Bryant on this forum, there were 250,000 trips that targeted or caught red snapper - multiply that by 2 fish per trip, and that equates to 500,000 fish x 8 pounds = 4,000,000 pounds. That's the total rec quota this year I believe.

    Let's say for argument's sake that each rec angler gets 6 tags per year (not likely in a fish tag system by the way). The angler would then have the option, if he chooses, to cash in all 6 tags on one trip, or he could choose to spread them out over 2 or 3 trips, or whatever.

    The recreational anglers that fish on for-hire boats would not have that option would they? The captain would control the tags - not his customers, so it is up to the discretion of the captain how he wants to cash in the tags. Remember, the captain is selling trips, so most likely scenario would be that he would constrain his customers to a maximum of 1 red snapper per trip - the customer coming down to the coast once a year would not have the option to cash in 6 tags at once. Or, as is the case with some headboats in the EFP, they could offer red snapper tags as an upgrade - sell the tags for whatever fee he wants for those who want to catch and take home 1 red snapper.

    If fish tags are such a great idea, then why not make them available to ALL recreational anglers that fish for red snapper? Oh yeah, that would negate the need for Sector Separation wouldn't it? Kinda illustrates the REAL reason for Sector Separation doesn't it? It's certainly not about fair and equitable access to the fishery for ALL recreational anglers. Since the captain would control the tags, they become assets attached to his permit - assets that can be sold based on their monetary worth during the course of a season, or seasons.

    So....let's see the SPECIFICS so we can determine for ourselves whether or not fish tags are a viable option;

    How many are printed? __________________

    How are they distributed? _______________

    How many does each rec angler get? _______

    Is there a fee associated with the tag? Y/N

    If so, where does the money go to? ________________________________________________________

    Unless you can answer these questions, then how can YOU know that fish tags are a viable option? You can't possibly know.

    If you can't answer these questions, but continue to promote their worth, then it's just propaganda.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Actually, Yes there are Hunting operations that can sell tags for animals in the wild. What you refuse to understand is that Sector Separation is now law. Yes indeed there will be lawsuits and it has a sunset attached, but in the mean time there is Amendments 41 and 42 that are now working on Separate fish management plans for the Charter for Hire and the Head boats. What we have now may or may not stand the test of time but we are working on the plans to see if they are viable. Testing and working on solutions that break away from statics quo, working within the only real system we have in place, as you know with the VETO promise from the administration that trying to break away from this system and the federal government on federal fisheries is and will be a tough road if not impossible.

    My thing is about tags or any other management style for the purely recreational fisherman is not being explored at this time, actually the only thing being worked on right now is amendment 39 regional management, which still doesn't discuss accountable management that may increase access to the fishery.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    According to the feds' numbers shown by Bob Bryant on this forum, there were 250,000 trips that targeted or caught red snapper - multiply that by 2 fish per trip, and that equates to 500,000 fish x 8 pounds = 4,000,000 pounds. That's the total rec quota this year I believe.


    So....let's see the SPECIFICS so we can determine for ourselves whether or not fish tags are a viable option;

    How many are printed? __________________

    How are they distributed? _______________

    How many does each rec angler get? _______

    Is there a fee associated with the tag? Y/N

    If so, where does the money go to? ________________________________________________________

    Unless you can answer these questions, then how can YOU know that fish tags are a viable option? You can't possibly know.

    If you can't answer these questions, but continue to promote their worth, then it's just propaganda.

    But, Tom, I know you're ignoring the graphic I posted, but 250,000 trips is not what is being used for calculations. Trips that caught red snapper that is being used by the Council is over 600,000. That's why I asked how he came up with that number.

    I went to the MRIP site, and I can't come up with a query that will give me "catch trips of red snapper". Maybe I am just not selecting the right options?? Bob, any suggestions on what I need to select? I am not saying you're wrong; the Council's amendment has very different numbers. I'm just trying to understand where you got yours. I can't find that proper query on the MRIP site.

    Tom, otherwise, I agree. Those are BIG issues to be resolved for tags (whether for charter or private). Even in the charter fleet (not headboat), you start dividing the quota by 8 (lbs), and the number of tags starts to shrink when you apply it to all boats.

    Now....... FL Keys boats don't need tags. They'll get some, but they don't need them. So, somehow, they need to be able to sell those tags, but not lease them (no couch lords like the IFQ).

    Lots of issues to be addressed here, but I still don't see it as impossible to figure something out.



    Oh........... and Gary, I don't know how many times I have to tell you...... I don't work for anyone. I'm retired. What I believe is what I believe. My "messenger" comment was to point to the table in the amendment vs. Bob's number. One of those is correct. I am just the messenger of the data presented in the amendment. I don't know if that number is right or wrong; its just different than Bob's number. And I've asked how he got that number that is so much lower and different.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,905 AG
    BubbaII wrote: »

    Oh........... and Gary, I don't know how many times I have to tell you...... I don't work for anyone. I'm retired. What I believe is what I believe. My "messenger" comment was to point to the table in the amendment vs. Bob's number. One of those is correct. I am just the messenger of the data presented in the amendment. I don't know if that number is right or wrong; its just different than Bob's number. And I've asked how he got that number that is so much lower and different.

    :grin You have told me nothing many times.

    So what is your name and background? And why are you ashamed or afraid to reveal it? I can only assume that you are not the innocent impartial observer that you claim to be.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Captain
    I will add that saying that the CCA is not a "lobby" is very far from the truth. They are a very strong lobby at the state level and in DC, but for "who" I guess is the question.

    While CCA is a very strong Lobby with lots of followers, I'm a bit stand offish.

    I grew up Commercial Fishing in TX, a business that was shut down due to the GCCA (before it was CCA). That was in the late 70s.

    Personally, I don't understand how or why any charter business would stake its entire livelihood on 1 species. I have a charter business, and the ability to catch many species throughout the year. If I didn't have that, and was restricted to making my living on a single species... I might consider another line of work. But that's just me.

    I would never represent myself as the keeper of the free world's access to a species, let alone take quota away from US Citizens that already have the ability to go catch their own. But that's me and my belief/value system.

    Along those lines, I would never support a movement to place a dollar value on a permit for which I pay almost nothing for to make 10s of thousands of dollars annually as income... and then say no one else can have one.... unless they buy mine.

    Like the Fed Gulf Charter Permit.

    Since you are a Fed Gulf Charter guy, with 2 of these permits... How much do you pay each year to re-new them?

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Got TA Go wrote: »
    While CCA is a very strong Lobby with lots of followers, I'm a bit stand offish.

    I grew up Commercial Fishing in TX, a business that was shut down due to the GCCA (before it was CCA). That was in the late 70s.

    Personally, I don't understand how or why any charter business would stake its entire livelihood on 1 species. I have a charter business, and the ability to catch many species throughout the year. If I didn't have that, and was restricted to making my living on a single species... I might consider another line of work. But that's just me.

    I would never represent myself as the keeper of the free world's access to a species, let alone take quota away from US Citizens that already have the ability to go catch their own. But that's me and my belief/value system.

    Along those lines, I would never support a movement to place a dollar value on a permit for which I pay almost nothing for to make 10s of thousands of dollars annually as income... and then say no one else can have one.... unless they buy mine.

    Like the Fed Gulf Charter Permit.

    Since you are a Fed Gulf Charter guy, with 2 of these permits... How much do you pay each year to re-new them?

    Rob

    I pay $35 for each boat. I have never had a vote on the moratorium on permits. We also catch more than one species of fish and my business is not based off one species. I think we ran over 250 charters in 2014. Im working as hard as I can for more restrictive catch limits and size limits on triggerfish right now, and we need a new stock assessment on them also, so we can limit the closers of the season. I am not for a 30 to 34 inch Amberjack increase all in one year, I would rather see a gradual increase to get to 34 inches, but will do whatever I have to do to limit the closer of the season. Last year after the 9 day red snapper season we could catch and keep Mackerel, vermillion and porgys, but of course there was plenty of other fish we never catch so they really don't matter. Only the Mackerel we could really target inside 20 miles. Looking for a flexible management plan were we can catch some fish year around. What has to be nice fishing in Key West is 3 miles or less out you can chum up some yellowtail and pretty much troll up some Dolphin on any day.
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Captain
    I pay $35 for each boat. I have never had a vote on the moratorium on permits.

    What has to be nice fishing in Key West is 3 miles or less out you can chum up some yellowtail and pretty much troll up some Dolphin on any day.

    The Moratorium was put into place by the "Got Mine" crowd that was looking to limit competition in the market and add value to the permits they hold/held.

    We are seeing this in the SAFMC side now as there is a push to make the permits a commodity that can bought/sold as someone leaves the fishery. Gives them final paycheck.

    Personally, I am against it (buying/selling permits). If a person decides to get out of the fishery, the permit should go back into the general pool, not be sold to the highest bidder. And I can elaborate on that if need be.

    250 is a very busy number. Glad to hear it. What boats?

    Pretty tough to do KW less than 3 miles out. Some shallow water patch reef fishing for 10" Yellowtails and Grunts is about all you'll find there. 6 miles will get you out to deeper water (100'), but few of us fish those areas and leave it to the weekend anglers and tourist that bring their own boats.

    We face a couple of bigger problems here.... Lack of working waterfront, Fisheries Closures and Closed Areas.

    Topping the list of problems is keeping track of what rules we are fishing under at any given time, and how LEOs will react. We have the ability to fish SA, Gulf and Fl State waters in the same day. The differences between SA and Gulf make this difficult to keep track of. A 4 month SA Grouper closure that coincides with a 2 month Gulf Closure...different size limits on Grouper.... Transit clauses, etc... make it difficult to fish in the Gulf for Grouper when it's open there, but closed in the SA. You never know what the LEO is going to say when you roll into the marina on the South Atlantic side, and you have Grouper in the box.

    Red Snapper is a more painful issue.

    My typical run for Pelagics is about 15 miles to start fishing for them right now. No, not near as far as what you probably have, but I still prefer when they are closer to the reef.

    I'll trade cost of living expenses with you, but not the distances you have to run. :)

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    The Moratorium was put into place by the "Got Mine" crowd that was looking to limit competition in the market and add value to the permits they hold/held.

    We are seeing this in the SAFMC side now as there is a push to make the permits a commodity that can bought/sold as someone leaves the fishery. Gives them final paycheck.

    Personally, I am against it (buying/selling permits). If a person decides to get out of the fishery, the permit should go back into the general pool, not be sold to the highest bidder. And I can elaborate on that if need be.


    I hear ya, yeah the moratorium was before my time and I just got into the business with a boat with a permit back in 1999, so I didn't have to purchase one. Yeah permits of any kind with moratorium hold a value, the 6 passenger charter permits have went from 6 to 8 thousand dollars to 16,000 to 20,000 in just this year. Have no Idea what my 22 passenger permit is worth right now but it doesn't really matter to me I plan to die charter fishing and never retire, just like my dad did.

    We face a couple of bigger problems here.... Lack of working waterfront, Fisheries Closures and Closed Areas.

    Topping the list of problems is keeping track of what rules we are fishing under at any given time, and how LEOs will react. We have the ability to fish SA, Gulf and Fl State waters in the same day. The differences between SA and Gulf make this difficult to keep track of. A 4 month SA Grouper closure that coincides with a 2 month Gulf Closure...different size limits on Grouper.... Transit clauses, etc... make it difficult to fish in the Gulf for Grouper when it's open there, but closed in the SA. You never know what the LEO is going to say when you roll into the marina on the South Atlantic side, and you have Grouper in the box.


    I agree its not the same here but its headed that way on every part of tourist beaches. Condos replacing charter marinas being the number one killer of our business. As far as the law enforcement we have to deal with traveling thru state waters and the FWC targeting charter boats in federal waters off of Alabama, seems sometimes that Florida doesn't have enough federal waters to patrol. Our local guys the Alabama Conservation Department have really taken care of us the last few years and don't bother us much and actually work with us on catching poachers and the such. Its great to have a good working relationship with the law enforcement.

    I'll trade cost of living expenses with you, but not the distances you have to run.

    Yeah I can just imagine how much it cost to live where you live. At least here if you want you can leave the island and move up to the country and still be only 30 or 40 mins from the boat. As far as distances we run it all depends on whats in season, and the trip. We can catch mackerel and catch and release bottom fish very close as close as 8 miles and have great catches, good for 4 to 5 hr trips. When we can retain red snapper it gets even easier. The problems are when so many fish are closed is when you have to burn the fuel to keep some fish if you have customers that want to fill the box or try too. Our full day trips has us going as far as 50 miles sometimes to catch decent fish, most of the time I stay inside of 35.
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Digital Now Included!

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

Preview This Month's Issue

Buy Digital Single Issues

Don't miss an issue.
Buy single digital issue for your phone or tablet.

Buy Single Digital Issue on the Florida Sportsman App

Other Magazines

See All Other Magazines

Special Interest Magazines

See All Special Interest Magazines

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Florida Sportsman stories delivered right to your inbox.

Advertisement

Phone Icon

Get Digital Access.

All Florida Sportsman subscribers now have digital access to their magazine content. This means you have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets.

To get started, click the link below to visit mymagnow.com and learn how to access your digital magazine.

Get Digital Access

Not a Subscriber?
Subscribe Now