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Tibor Discontinued the Direct Drive Pate Reels

Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
WHEN? But more important, WHY?

Are there still that many people out there that favor anti reverse fly reels over direct drives? This subject used to be a regular on all fly fishing forums, but at least here it has not come up in quite a while. Dumb of me, but I sort of thought the debate was over. Now this. Are anti reverse reels still that popular? Or was the direct drive Pate digging too deep into Tibor's sales?

I'm just asking. This thread is NOT intended to refuel the debate of DD vs. Anti reverse. To each his own and leave it at that.


OBTW.....Just saw that there's a direct drive Pate Tarpon with extra spool (both have fly lines) on eBay for $279. (Buy it now for $379) This is a steal! The season is coming!
.......Rick

Replies

  • Carl BlackledgeCarl Blackledge Posts: 674 Officer
    Mr Rat,

    "Tibor Discontinued the Direct Drive Pate Reels"

    Rat, I would think they just ran out and found that it wasn't cost effective to make more. The Pate reel is a well made reel, however it has a small drag, very heavy and actually couldn't compare to a Tibor reel, even thought they were both made and designed by Ted. The Pate anti-reverse or any other big game anti-reverse for that matter only owns less the 1/2 of one percent of the reel market share. I bought a Pate anti-reverse maybe 25 years ago, very pretty, however it really failed in the drag department, the drag was way too small for a 4 inch reel, I could tighten the drag as tite as I could and even small fish just swam away (remember I got pop eye arms from being a plumber all my life) I had to have shims made for the drag to slow down the smallest of fish. I think the newer Tibor's are 100 times better then any Pate made , and the Abel even better then Tibor's.........My 2 cents

    Carl Blackledge
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    Thanks Carl.....that all sounds plausible, except I can't imagine someone like Ted Juracsik, designing a reel with an inadequate drag. Never a problem with the A/R Fin Nors, but I have hardly ever owned an anti reverse reel in my life. One was a TBS 312, which you probably have never heard of. "TBS," stands for The Bedford Sportsman fly shop (in Bedford, New York) It's where Mike Vaughn worked before he left for Florida, to eventually become a guide. I first met him there, in the late 60's-early 70's and bought one of their reels, my first real salt water fly reel. Caught my first Key West tarpon on it, from the shrimp docks in Key West. It later sort of blew up on me.
    I bought a #3 anti reverse Fin Nor once, over 30 years ago, for potential clients. I never had to use it, and eventually sold it, still NIB.

    So I am clueless when it comes to A/R reels. I tout the Pate over the Tibor, but purely for the capacity issues, for those who are bound to have a Tibor/Pate reel.
    .......Rick
  • Carl BlackledgeCarl Blackledge Posts: 674 Officer
    Mr. Rat.



    I would think that fly reel's like most everything else become better and stronger, the longer the same model is made. VW's come to mind....... When you build something and it breaks, you build the broken part even stronger, pretty soon you have very strong reel. I am sure the last Pate reels were a lot stronger and bullet proof then the first ones. I heard that Ted designed the Tibor to be superior to the Billy Pate reel, or maybe he knew more about building reels at that point. I don't think the Pate can compare in any way to a Tibor, in weight-performance- drag and function.

    The last time I looked the Tibor drag had twice the surface area of a Pate, and weighted maybe 1/2 as much.

    I also agree with what you said in your first post, I don't really care what make and model reel anybody uses, direct drive or AR.

    I also caught my first Tarpon in the Key West harbor on a A/R Pate Tarpon reel, however after the first fish I could see the A/R wasn't for me. I also had a brand new Abel 4 N, I used on the rest of the trip, I never used a A/R reel again for Tarpon. I don't think many will miss the Billy Pate reels....just my 2
    cents.

    Carl Blackledge
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 3,839 Captain
    Thank heavens there's still a great supply of Pates on the 'net. I still have two of them ( a Bonefish and a Tarpon -both direct drive..). Yes, the Tibors are lighter and more modern - but if I were heading a long way from civilization to hunt big fish -those Pates would be my first choice since they're almost bullet-proof... Not many reels that I can think of that two or three generations of anglers would have trouble wearing out (did I mention that the Pate reels don't have any bearings to worry about?). As far as the drag goes, I've never found it wanting no matter how many big tarpon, sharks, or snook we tangle with...

    These days all of the reels on my skiff are by Nautilus -but the backups are those old Pate reels. Can't say enough good things about those old reels. Many years ago one of the guys that taught me to build fly rods (and is still an active guide.. but out in Colorado these days) said that it was nice to have a reel that didn't have any weaknesses. That's still the case today (and most can be had used at around $300 if you look around a bit...).
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • Carl BlackledgeCarl Blackledge Posts: 674 Officer
    Bob,

    When I was describing the weak drag system I was referring to the Pate A/R reels, not the direct drive. I personally don't have "any" experience with the direct drive Pate. As I said above, after the first Tarpon I fought, I said never again, I started using my back up rod and reel. The new reel was a brand new Abel 4 N that just hit the market, when you tithed down the drag, something was going to break, where as the Pate was a joke.

    Carl Blackledge
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    Bob......are yours right hand or left hand retrieve? Seems they made most of them as lefties.
    .......Rick
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 3,839 Captain
    Both of mine are standard right hand drive reels... Seems like these days at least half of my anglers learned reel with their weak hands. While old dudes, me included, were taught to always use your strong hand for your fly reels (that means right hand drive for me...).
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    OK....Reason I asked, was that I was looking through eBay at the Pates, thinking I might buy (just to say I have one) a Bonefish model, that I could also use for small-ish tarpon in confined areas. But while I was doing this, I noticed that all but one of the Pates available, were left hand retrieve. In my mind this wouldn't bother me, but if I were to buy one, it would be the only left hand reel I owned. I guess I could get used to it, but it would definitely feel weird at first. I think I'll wait for a RH reel.
    .......Rick
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 3,839 Captain
    You see lots of left hand reels since they don't sell quickly.... Right hand reels get snapped up pretty quickly
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • acesoveracesover Posts: 552 Officer
    I'm surprised that the lefties don't sell as fast, most of the fly fishers I know reel left handed, although I'm a righty myself, and I have a Pate Bonefish direct drive that is a right hander. I got it along with an old Scott Heliply rod, nice outfit, but it's on the heavy side, still a hoot to fish with.
    FYIWFG
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    Well, I'm with Bob......I think the Pate DD is a helluva reel, and for all the reasons (and more) that he mentioned. Right or left hand retrieve doesn't matter. But to get back on topic, I could see them discontinuing the A/R reels, but not the Direct Drive. I have no idea what the new Fin Nors look like these days, but without doing any research, if I were just stepping into guiding today, I would probably buy Pate DD's for my clients to use and never look back.
    .......Rick
  • BacklashBacklash Posts: 880 Officer
    I think that they got rid of the DD Pates because of slow sales. If someone wants a DD tibor reel they tend to buy a Tibor.
    Seems that the only reason the Pates are still being made is because of the AR.
    I have both a DD Pate bone and an AR Pate bone... I dig both of 'em. But having said that, I really don't use either anymore... I'm in love with the Danielssons.

    I've caught tarpon to 80lbs and many, many in the 50/60 range wading the creeks around the bridges at night on the AR... That is a situation where you really gotta take the fight to the fish. Never ever ever had any drag inadequacy issues with either.
    I like the AR for teaching newbies. It's no fun to bust the knuckles up on your first fish on fly. I'm currently teaching my wife to sling feathers, so I'll be dusting off the AR Pate once the lawn sessions at KL park are done.
    I have no plans for the DD. They're both lefties...
    I'd be willing to let the DD go if your still looking PR. She ain't pretty no more, but she's still got the guts in her.
  • sparse greysparse grey Posts: 1,751 Captain
    Rick Believe me it would be more than a weird feel. The couple times I "had" to use a left hand I could not do if with any type of speed. Still remember a clicker reel I borrowed for a back up on a remote trout trip. Had to use it & ended up stripping all line & backing & rewinding backwards to enable a right hand retrieve.
    Ron Conner Release the fish, keep the memories. Once a Knight is enough.
  • Ol'DirtyCasterOl'DirtyCaster Posts: 2,382 Captain
    Rick Believe me it would be more than a weird feel. The couple times I "had" to use a left hand I could not do if with any type of speed. Still remember a clicker reel I borrowed for a back up on a remote trout trip. Had to use it & ended up stripping all line & backing & rewinding backwards to enable a right hand retrieve.



    On a similar note, due to an old injury that snuck up on me, I've had to train myself to cast left handed. Started off slow, but by using a 2 handed grip I trained my left arm to copy the range of motion used by my right arm. The muscle memory isn't there yet, and I can't double haul until I heal up a little more, but I'm fishing again.
  • BacklashBacklash Posts: 880 Officer
    Good job on not riding the bench, takes a bit of tenacity to make yourself relearn to cast with the other arm. Hope your back to 100% before you know it.
    On the right/left retrieve subject: do you guys set up your spinning reels to right retrieve?
    Apparently I use right hand retrieve with reels on top of the rod (casting reels) and left with reels on the bottom(spin & fly)... Not sure why. I'm a self taught fly caster, bought my first fly rod in Norway when I was about 10 and I couldn't take seeing all that beautiful water and not fishing it. It was/is a glass rod with an old battenkill c&p lefty... Figured it out quick, caught some nice trout, came back home, and have been a left crank ever since.
    PR - do you still have that Shipoke? Great hull... I'm on the tail end of a major resto on my Sidewinder, which is the hull Archibald copied to make the Shipoke. Have been almost done with it for months now, gotta prioritize.
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    Ron....I hear ya and agree also. I should have clarified, but I meant "for others," when I said "it didn't matter."

    No, I do not change spinning reels to right hand, but I DO change plug/casting reels to left hand. The reason is simple: With the latter 2, you have a gear ratio and the line comes in faster than you are actually turning the handle. This is especially true with spinning reels where that ratio almost prevents you from turning the handle any faster than a certain speed and that is usually slower than you probably could do it with a 1:1 ratio. But fly reels are 1:1 and at times it is necessary to wind as fast as possible and for minutes at a time. I can remember taking my salt water fly reels and practicing this at home while watching television. I would crank as fast as I could, for as long as I could, without stuttering or "hitching up." (you'll know what I mean if you try this and that happens) For right handers, the right hand is more coordinated and one can usually do this better using that hand.

    Backlash.....No I sold my Shipoke long ago, but it is still in use today by another Key West guide. She'll be 35 years old this Spring. You'll do great with your boat, if it was built after about 1985 or 86, when Fred went to glass/foam stringers and transoms. The original boats would eventually get some water in there, and make them even heavier than they originally were. If you have those glass/foam components, the boat will weigh less, ride higher and be a little drier. But due to the side console, she'll be wet for you at certain wind angles if the chop is too big to skim the wave tops. I also think that about that time, Fred took the hook out of the hull, which it had as a ski boat. An original Shipoke is/was the only boat I ever rode in, that did not and would not benefit from having trim tabs. Quite the opposite, it was almost impossible to get the bow UP and I have to admit I pearled her once or twice in the 10 years I fished out of it.

    Other than that, they are the Cadillac of technical poling skiffs. Don't let that 15 inch draft scare you, either. There were very few times when the bonefish were shallower than I cold pole after them....usually those glassy days in the Spring/Summer.
    .......Rick
  • BacklashBacklash Posts: 880 Officer
    Thanks Rick, but mines not a Shipoke. It's a Sidewinder, made in Canada. They were the speedboats that Shipoke (and the Dolphin 18) outright copied the hull. Far as I know, there were only 12 made as actual flats skiffs, they were sent down to Islamorada from Ontario on a flatbed in '79, layed up in '78... 100% Kevlar woven roving hull. I've owned her since the mid 90's and have already put her through her paces for well over a decade before beginning the restoration... Going to go install the new helm pump I just got in shortly.
    Tarpon are here big time, I gotta quit screwing around.
    The retrieves... IDK, I'm kinda ambidextrous I guess. I'm generally a righty, except I shoot lefty and shoot pool lefty. I've never had an instance in fly fishing where I thought my left hand couldn't keep up... It's also probably why I love the huge arbor reels like the Danielssons, Lamsons, and even the lowly Orvis Battenkill LA (English built)
    I totally understand the rationale with 1:1 ratios compared to spinners, etc.
  • waldnerrwaldnerr Posts: 1,029 Officer
    A couple of years ago I made a trout fishing trip to the San Juan River in New Mexico. I pulled out my five-weight outfit and my guide said, "I can always tell you saltwater boys from Florida - you always reel with your right hand." It seems that a lot, if not most, freshwater anglers reel with their weaker hands so they don't have to switch hands after a cast. I taught a fly casting clinic with Billy Pate over a decade ago, and Billy used left-handed, anti-reverse reels (he was right-handed, as I remember). I asked him about this and he stated that, during a long fight with a tarpon, he would get tired and was worried about making mistakes, and using an anti-reverse reel helped in this regard. Personally, I barely have enough coordination to scratch my head with my left hand, and my trying to retrieve line with this hand while using a reel with a 1:1 retrieve ratio would be something one might want to videotape for "America's Funniest Home Videos."
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