Panther Team and upcoming meetings

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  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,797 Admiral
    SSS...enough is enuff!

    Just like the guys who floated a couple down river in N Fl.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    Johnny, read here it is extinct. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2011/03/eastern-cougar-officially-declared-extinct/1#.U38dvfldUo4

    Thus is the plan to re introduce the species by a technical error....that being the so called Fl Panther

    It is a big plan, real big plan we've just been the test cell,but let the expansion begin

    Eastern Cougar is not the same subspecies as the Panther..... In fact it is poorly written but the article actually states that.
    The eastern cougar is a subspecies of the cougar, which includes the Florida panther and the western cougar. There are multiple subspecies, though exactly how many is debated among biologists. All are called by several names depending on the area, including puma, panther, mountain lion, catamount, cougar and painter.

    And all of the subspecies have historically interbred naturally.... the Florida Panther Lost that ability....



    And I will tell you something.... When guys like you..... Start that "the panther is extinct" rhetoric... You drive away guys like me. That are 4th, 5th or 6th generation Floridians that have a LONG tradition of BOTH hunting and ranching and want to see the panthers expansion tightly controlled.
  • spfldbowhunterspfldbowhunter Posts: 924 Officer
    Eastern Cougar is not the same subspecies as the Panther..... In fact it is poorly written but the article actually states that.



    And all of the subspecies have historically interbred naturally.... the Florida Panther Lost that ability....



    And I will tell you something.... When guys like you..... Start that "the panther is extinct" rhetoric... You drive away guys like me. That are 4th, 5th or 6th generation Floridians that have a LONG tradition of BOTH hunting and ranching and want to see the panthers expansion tightly controlled.

    The "panther" is a subspecies, not the other way around.

    You're in a very short line of hunters and ranchers wanting to see any cougar expansion- controlled or not.
    Eph. 3:20
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    The "panther" is a subspecies, not the other way around.

    You're in a very short line of hunters and ranchers wanting to see any cougar expansion- controlled or not.

    You are confused....

    They are ALL Subspecies.... The Eastern cougar, Western Cougar. Florida Panther, etc. Anywhere from 6 to 23 subspecies in all give or take depending on which scientist's study you adhere to... but it does not matter as far as the Panther, Eastern or Western Cougar is concerned. All three are a given even with the six subspecies.

    It is also a given that the Eastern, Western and Panther naturally interbred and passed genetic material back and forth.

    The state of Florida only helped what should have been happening in nature all along, but could not because of human development.

    NONE of you would be complaining if they brought whitetails from Texas to mix with the Florida herd because genetic transfer could no longer occur naturally....

    The best evidence binellishtr can come up with is a USA today article that he misinterprets to support his statements. The article is not even about Panthers, but rather the Eastern Cougar. Which may very well be extinct. but some of their former range is being re populated by Western cats.

    Expansion is a given - The species does exist, regardless of what some say. The species also has complete Federal Protection. NOTHING is going to change that.... Anyone that things we are going to stop expansion or reduce the current numbers of cats, might as well give up and go home. Never going to happen.

    So what we have to do now is be realistic... We as hunters, ranchers, outdoorsmen, have to figure out how to live with the panther. Both NORTH and South of the Caloosahatchee.

    IF we approach it in a manner such that we are willing to or at least have accepted the fact that the panthers are here to stay and expand. We may get some concessions...
    Possibly things such as:

    *Ranchers and landowners being able to deal with and remove problematic cats
    * Balance being brought back to areas with abnormally high panther populations
    *Removal of Suburban Panthers in the name of public safety.

    Etc...

    But.... IF we act as if we want the panther gone or its expansion halted. Or even worse... We run around making statements that the species is extinct. etc... We are GOING TO BE VIEWED AS EXTREMISTS... And then both the State and the Feds... Especially the Feds.. are going to dig their heels in and there is NO CHANCE we get anything.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    Correction... Up to 32 species... I reversed the numbers.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,797 Admiral
    I'm honored you BOLD my name....join the BOHICA nation now
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    I'm honored you BOLD my name....join the BOHICA nation now
    It was easier to cut and past and it came back bold.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,797 Admiral
    all in good fun...
  • N. CookN. Cook Posts: 2,100 Captain
    Well.....actually the latest published international science (although the USFWS people noted their objection) is that their is only one "subspecies" of panther in all of North America...there are five others...one in lower Central America and the others in various distinct regions of South America.

    The reason the USFWS "disagree" is because all of a sudden that would make the Florida Panther just another panther population in North America with nothing different than those in CA or TX or any of the western states and Canada....The question of whether the local panther is even an "endangered" species is raised.....and the uniqueness of the Florida population that is a great "environmentalist" cause and money raiser here in Florida.....Being an Endangered Species is crucial to some stakeholders' objectives, but the designation has had negative impacts on public access and activity on lands with panthers....

    "Hidden Motives"????.....they are a bigger player than often stated by the USFWS.
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 fort Meade FLPosts: 4,309 Captain
    NO DIFFERENCE IN A COUGAR OR PANTHER
    living life as i like
  • huntmstrhuntmstr Posts: 6,290 Admiral
    N. Cook wrote: »
    Well.....actually the latest published international science (although the USFWS people noted their objection) is that their is only one "subspecies" of panther in all of North America...there are five others...one in lower Central America and the others in various distinct regions of South America.

    The reason the USFWS "disagree" is because all of a sudden that would make the Florida Panther just another panther population in North America with nothing different than those in CA or TX or any of the western states and Canada....The question of whether the local panther is even an "endangered" species is raised.....and the uniqueness of the Florida population that is a great "environmentalist" cause and money raiser here in Florida.....Being an Endangered Species is crucial to some stakeholders' objectives, but the designation has had negative impacts on public access and activity on lands with panthers....

    "Hidden Motives"????.....they are a bigger player than often stated by the USFWS.

    And that is why someone like Laurie McDonald from Defenders of Wildlife has a seat on the Panther Team and we don't.
    Bushnell, Primos and Final Approach Pro Staff. Proud member of the Fab Five, Big Leaugers and Bobble Head 4.

    I had you pissed off at hello.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    Eastern Cougar is not the same subspecies as the Panther..... In fact it is poorly written but the article actually states that.



    And all of the subspecies have historically interbred naturally.... the Florida Panther Lost that ability....



    And I will tell you something.... When guys like you..... Start that "the panther is extinct" rhetoric... You drive away guys like me. That are 4th, 5th or 6th generation Floridians that have a LONG tradition of BOTH hunting and ranching and want to see the panthers expansion tightly controlled.

    Mr Bandit is correct that sometimes we drive wedges between folks that should be together. We should resist ever doing that at all costs. We need more bridges connecting us rather than ditches separating us since we have so many things in common. That being said - I love hunting fishing and beef but also believe in order to tightly control and possibly bring sanity to this soon to be out of control expansion of panthers Northward we should join together as we push for our specific desired outcomes and begin expressing as publicly as possible our serious concerns for the safety of the general unsuspecting people living in residential communities in the path of the expansion that aren't woodsy or knowledgeable that will be endangered by 240 panthers between I-4 and Lake O. The public safety issue can generate more massive support from the public for proceeding forward more sanely with very tight controls than any individual special interest such as hunting or cattle IMHO.

    Why, Heck even all of the land South of the lake isn't enough for the 160 cats agencies say might be there currently. Just with 160 cats a resident clained to have spotted a female with cubs in a residential neighborhood miles North of Dupuis WMA near I-95. It will be interesting to see where cats wind up when and if 240 of them ever inhabit the lands North of Lake O.

    My thanks to Johnny Bandit for his comment here. I know I listened to it and get it.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    Ol Mucky wrote: »
    sometimes I wonder what happened to the Sabre Tooth Cats in Florida?

    The Ice Age???
  • BatemasterBatemaster Posts: 1,701 Captain
    gladesman wrote: »
    Why, Heck even all of the land South of the lake isn't enough for the 160 cats agencies say might be there currently. Just with 160 cats a female with cubs been spotted residential neighborhood miles North of Dupuis WMA. It will be interesting to see where cats wind up when and if 240 of them ever inhabit the lands North of Lake O.

    So they're already naturally beginning to love north. Taking the path of least resistance east of the lake. No need for us to interfere.
  • SLW210 wrote: »
    Then maybe you would be the one that needs to sit on the board.

    Who do I need to contact to suggest that you be on the board and if not you, who would you suggest?

    It is interesting to note that the Eastern Cougar has been declared extinct despite sightings and actual evidence they still exist throughout the Appalachians yet no effort to force a repopulation anywhere but Florida. Seems more of an agenda of (?) than anything to me, they certainly add nothing to the ecosystem that I can see, the Appalachians are doing well without them, why wouldn't Florida?

    If not repopulating to hunt them, then what is the intended purpose? There are plenty out west, tell the Libs to move out there, lots of illegally confiscated government land out there as well, Liberal paradise I tell you!

    The number one location determined for reestablishment is actually in SEGA in the Okefenokee area, that is what the plan calls for. Ironically in GA many of those that hunt want them here. I am one of them. I know that GA would establish a hunting season once they became established, just as they have done out west with the wolves. I personally have gone out west to hunt them and it is exciting, plus they taste good.....I am curious as to their habits with regards to eastern coyotes. I know out west once wolves got reestablished they seem to kill wolves and wolves kill them. If they killed coyotes I am sure most in GA would welcome them with open arms.

    Does anyone know of any studies about their relationship with south eastern coyotes? If so, could someone post a link?
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 fort Meade FLPosts: 4,309 Captain
    The number one location determined for reestablishment is actually in SEGA in the Okefenokee area, that is what the plan calls for. Ironically in GA many of those that hunt want them here. I am one of them. I know that GA would establish a hunting season once they became established, just as they have done out west with the wolves. I personally have gone out west to hunt them and it is exciting, plus they taste good.....I am curious as to their habits with regards to eastern coyotes. I know out west once wolves got reestablished they seem to kill wolves and wolves kill them. If they killed coyotes I am sure most in GA would welcome them with open arms.

    Does anyone know of any studies about their relationship with south eastern coyotes? If so, could someone post a link?

    ALL PREDATORS kill each other. Competiton is not wanted by any of them .
    living life as i like
  • ALL PREDATORS kill each other. Competiton is not wanted by any of them .

    Due to extensive fawn predation by coyotes in GA and with coyotes preying on adult deer on a regular basis, I believe most land managers would welcome panthers if there were any studies out there confirming an adverse effect on coyotes. Their core home range is 10 to 20 times that of a southern coyote's core home range. If the panthers reduced the coyote population in their core home range by even 50% you would have a large net decrease in deer predation even with the added predation of the panthers. Not to mention the added benefit of panthers preying heavily on wild hogs. Panthers would also prey on meso predators such as racoons which would help reduce nest predation on ground nesting birds such as quail and turkeys.

    My attitude is to get hunters in the fore front of panther management to give us a place in the table. If hunters offer no help or valid input to the inevidable government aided spread of these animals, we will find ourselves on the sidelines in the debate and policy making procedure. Maybe not in FLA, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if they get established in other southern states hunting will be allowed eventually. I for one would really love to hear hounds baying a big cat in my beloved South Georgia river swamps and piney woods before I die.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,634 Captain
    Your are right. The panthers prey on wild hogs and that is why you can only take one a day and two per year on WMA land down south. Are we going to start to restrict the hog harvest if we have a bigger influx of cats in the central part of the State?
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,797 Admiral
    The cats will eat all the lil hogs,leaving nothing but trophys,then fawns,then bucks, then move on to cattle...turkeys dont stand a chance in un improved pastures...just ask land managers who see this on a daily basis
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    Batemaster wrote: »
    So they're already naturally beginning to love north. Taking the path of least resistance east of the lake. No need for us to interfere.

    Unless you live in Port St Lucie and don't want them strolling thru your neighborhood as per the forum at this link http://www.city-data.com/forum/port-st-lucie-sebastian-vero-beach/2122467-florida-panther-my-neighborhood.html

    Another source has told me they know panthers have been around there since the hurricane Andrew era for sure.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    The number one location determined for reestablishment is actually in SEGA in the Okefenokee area, that is what the plan calls for. Ironically in GA many of those that hunt want them here. I am one of them. I know that GA would establish a hunting season once they became established, just as they have done out west with the wolves. I personally have gone out west to hunt them and it is exciting, plus they taste good.....I am curious as to their habits with regards to eastern coyotes. I know out west once wolves got reestablished they seem to kill wolves and wolves kill them. If they killed coyotes I am sure most in GA would welcome them with open arms.

    Does anyone know of any studies about their relationship with south eastern coyotes? If so, could someone post a link?

    I would never hold my breath for a hunt season on this cat in Ga if it is called the Fla Panther.

    Hunting if ever IMHO will not happen until long after de listing, they're running over people's yards in Atlanta and a few people are killed by them. Then the powers that be might study the concept after pressure from the idiot, apathetic, dumbed down citizens that supported this animals rehab in the first place.
  • If they did it like they did the wolves, an experimental population, the regulations are more flexible. The Florida Black bear is listed by FLA. yet we hunt them in south GA. legally. The moment the wolves were delisted, hunting seasons popped up in the rockies, about 20 years after the first transplants.

    The cats have shown an ability to rebound rather fast, from what I can tell the main problem is the lack of female dispersal out of SWFLA due to habitat limitations and man made barriers. As for the hunting issue, if hunters and land managers were at the fore front of the issue, we would have much more say so than if we fought it tooth and nail. We know we have decent habitat in GA, on male made it from SWFLA all the way to west central GA where he was shot by a deer hunter. They know where he came from due to his DNA. He was so healthy, for awhile they thought he was an escaped illegal pet. You have western cats making it eastward, they are showing up in Mich., Ark. Iowa, Ill. and one even made it to Del. from S. Dak. where it was killed on a highway. Hunting will happen, I have no doubt, they have such large land requirements, even with good habitat that the managers will have no choice, the key is they have to establish a few distinct populations of them with genetic interflow from each other. Once that happens, at least in GA, ALA. and maybe MISS you can cut loose the hounds. It is allowed in many the states with established wolf populations now. And wolves have a much larger tree hugger following than the panther.
  • N. CookN. Cook Posts: 2,100 Captain
    Since this thread has picked up steam again I should note that the Panther Recovery Team did agree to the addition of a representative from the "hunting" community and Todd Hallman was appointed after a discussion among the traditional sports organizations. Thanks to Todd for stepping up and he is a great choice. ....And thanks to Larry Williams and the other team members for recognizing the need for our representation. This will be a many year project with a lot of interesting meetings.
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