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All Aboard Suckers!

Anyone ready for an upset stomach? Go ahead and click on the link....

http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/07/19/4243376_carl-hiaasen-florida-taxpayers.html

This "proposed" passenger train idea makes me sick!

My vote is not going for Gov. Scott or anyone who supports this cluster.:banghead:USA

Replies

  • LastMangoLastMango Posts: 4,574 Officer
    I am sure Charlie supports it just as much as Rick, only differently........ Charlie (whom I've met) would openly support tax payer subsidies... Rick, supports it through his cronyism and deception. Only a puffy flower world fool would truly believe that this train will operate without subsidies, bailouts, etc. The fact is, it's "other people's money" (tax payer money) and they (Rick and Charlie) are both politicians, so, the only skin they have in the game is their ego and shady personal gain of some kind.

    The entire concept wouldn't pass round one in a rudimentary high school marketing-finance research project that contained a mere smidgen of critical thinking. It would be laughed off the white-board at the earliest possible concept stage.

    As I have stated from day one, this train will wreak havoc on Stuart and Jupiter boaters because the train bridges will be down 75%+ of the day due to the need of a window of 25-35 min PER TRAIN to lower the train bridge completely to ensure that if there is a problem lowering the train bridge fully that an approaching train can safely stop prior to the final approach of the bridge. 32 trains a day is a LOT of trestle bridge down time...

    Next in line for severe impact? Historic Downtown Stuart. I've said it before here, and I will say it again... The impact on Historic Downtown Stuart will be devastating.... I am still willing to bet a nice diner on this one with Realtor Dave / NegotiatoR. :wink

    Also, I fully believe that there is far too much momentum to stop this now. It will have to run for 3-5 years, maybe 5-7 (with subsidies and bailouts of course) before it goes away, and by then, the damage will be done to property values close to the railroad and West of the trestle bridges (home owner boat traffic interference) and places like Historic Downtown Stuart as 32 trains a day wizzzz by vibrating pictures and glasses off the shelves and scaring the hell out of moms with kids in strollers.

    Once again, Washington DC and Local Government walks on the people/hand that feeds them...
  • latitudeajustmentlatitudeajustment Posts: 2,058 Captain
    LastMango wrote: »
    I am sure Charlie supports it just as much as Rick, only differently........ Charlie (whom I've met) would openly support tax payer subsidies... Rick, supports it through his cronyism and deception. Only a puffy flower world fool would truly believe that this train will operate without subsidies, bailouts, etc. The fact is, it's "other people's money" (tax payer money) and they (Rick and Charlie) are both politicians, so, the only skin they have in the game is their ego and shady personal gain of some kind.

    The entire concept wouldn't pass round one in a rudimentary high school marketing-finance research project that contained a mere smidgen of critical thinking. It would be laughed off the white-board at the earliest possible concept stage.

    As I have stated from day one, this train will wreak havoc on Stuart and Jupiter boaters because the train bridges will be down 75%+ of the day due to the need of a window of 25-35 min PER TRAIN to lower the train bridge completely to ensure that if there is a problem lowering the train bridge fully that an approaching train can safely stop prior to the final approach of the bridge. 32 trains a day is a LOT of trestle bridge down time...

    Next in line for severe impact? Historic Downtown Stuart. I've said it before here, and I will say it again... The impact on Historic Downtown Stuart will be devastating.... I am still willing to bet a nice diner on this one with Realtor Dave / NegotiatoR. :wink

    Also, I fully believe that there is far too much momentum to stop this now. It will have to run for 3-5 years, maybe 5-7 (with subsidies and bailouts of course) before it goes away, and by then, the damage will be done to property values close to the railroad and West of the trestle bridges (home owner boat traffic interference) and places like Historic Downtown Stuart as 32 trains a day wizzzz by vibrating pictures and glasses off the shelves and scaring the hell out of moms with kids in strollers.

    Once again, Washington DC and Local Government walks on the people/hand that feeds them...

    From Day 1 I have been against the entire idea.....somewhat....I would love to see the trains run but to the WEST...but that is not going to happen sooooo......now there is way too much clout behind this to go away..crazy stuff.
  • Flyers UpFlyers Up Posts: 655 Officer
    This is a hot issue for me as I own a house west of the train bridge and cannot get my boat through it when it’s down. The Politician’s don’t care about the home owners, restaurants or boaters that will be affected. Again the tax payer gets it in the END as always never changes it’s all about how much and who is getting their pockets lined with the Benjamin’s. This project should be called All Aboard Corruption.
  • RodHRodH Posts: 186 Deckhand
    Okay, so somebody please enlighten me, why is this bad, other than boaters will have to wait?? Trust me, I'm not trying to be funny or mean, but the truth is, most folks could care less about the impact the trains will have on boaters.

    Now, if you're talking downtown Stuart, please tell me, other than some stuff will be rattled around, how it will affect the area.

    I live actually east of the railroad in Stuart (Rocky Point), and I don't like the idea of 32 more trains at all. I just need some really good data and reasons to oppose it. Yes, I know it will stop my commute to where I work more than I'm stopped now (which is occasionally), but please, give me a truly great reason to run with the lets stop this crowd.
  • GrizGriz Palm Beach Gardens, FloridaPosts: 9,903 Admin
    I don't know anyone that has any plans on using the train. It's absurd.
    The early bird may get the worm, but the Second Mouse gets the cheese. SW

    :Griz
  • Rich MRich M Posts: 1,326 Officer
    The train has been in planning for well over 10 years. Miami, Orlando, Tampa, Daytona, Jax.

    What bothers me is why are they doing this? Are we gonna have a lot more people without cars? If so, why & how.
  • JI SnookJI Snook Posts: 676 Officer
    Obama's cronies will be cashing in on the contract to build the trains, GE CEO is Obama's job czar, Buffett, he own's stock in many railroads, FEC railroad will make money from the government for leasing their track right of way. The downside is that the towns and cities along the route are forced to use their tax base money to guarantee the upkeep of the tracks and build the infrastructure to the financial benefit of FEC. Nobody will ride this train to the main benefit of Disney World. How many families of 4-5 can afford train tickets, having to rent a car at the destination, and then pay $100.00 per person to go into the mouse house?
  • Flyers UpFlyers Up Posts: 655 Officer
    RodH...

    How many reasons do you need, you live east of the train bridge so you have one less reason not to care due to not being inconvenienced on when you can take your boat out if you own one!
  • summer dazesummer daze Posts: 883 Officer
    RodH wrote: »
    I live actually east of the railroad in Stuart (Rocky Point), and I don't like the idea of 32 more trains at all. I just need some really good data and reasons to oppose it. Yes, I know it will stop my commute to where I work more than I'm stopped now (which is occasionally), but please, give me a truly great reason to run with the lets stop this crowd.


    I also live in Rocky Point. As a resident u know how congested A1A gets from the light in the front of our neighborhood (actually the round about at cove & A1A) all the way to the round about at St. Lucie blvd during "snow bird" season. Now add 32 more trains to that mess. I for one am not looking forward to sitting in traffic for trains that don't benefit our home town or way of life at all !! That's one BIG reason.
    jgocnk.jpg
    Tight Lines..
  • RodHRodH Posts: 186 Deckhand
    Daze,

    I understand that completely and agree. I think what I'm seeing here is this thing is going to inconvenience us, cost us money, and not do a darn thing for our community. Those are very good reasons. Like I said, I'm not trying to be difficult on this subject, I just really want good information so as to argue against it the best way possible. The dollars our local communities will have to pay, without compensation, seems to be a great argument against the trains. And as you said, folks like you and I don't like the waits either. I have to commute across the tracks twice a day, and I do get caught occasionally.

    I wonder, the freight/tanker cars that come through now are long (I've counted up to 200 cars) and slow.....I wonder if the high speed trains will come through more quickly? I understand they'll be 32 more of them...but just wondering if the actual wait would be shorter because the train is shorter and faster.

    See you around the neighborhood!
  • nuevowavonuevowavo Posts: 6,822 Admin
    Griz wrote: »
    I don't know anyone that has any plans on using the train. It's absurd.

    Not only that, but there hasn't been a profitable inter-city railroad at least since Amtrak was taken over by the government since 1971, and the only part of Amtrak that turns a profit is the Boston-NY-Washington Acela run.
    Federales, bring my baby back to me!
  • Lazy BonesLazy Bones Posts: 941 Officer
    RodH wrote: »
    Okay, so somebody please enlighten me, why is this bad, other than boaters will have to wait?? Trust me, I'm not trying to be funny or mean, but the truth is, most folks could care less about the impact the trains will have on boaters.

    Now, if you're talking downtown Stuart, please tell me, other than some stuff will be rattled around, how it will affect the area.

    I live actually east of the railroad in Stuart (Rocky Point), and I don't like the idea of 32 more trains at all. I just need some really good data and reasons to oppose it. Yes, I know it will stop my commute to where I work more than I'm stopped now (which is occasionally), but please, give me a truly great reason to run with the lets stop this crowd.


    I agree that many see the pain inflicted on boaters as a 1% problem. Those people, seemingly even other boaters have no idea how onerous the train bridge can be. It is no where near as fast as a car crossing. The amount of time that the bridge will be down will be potentially crippling. They do not raise the bridge between trains.

    Lest you think that it's a "big boat" problem, take a spin up there and see the size boats that are stopped by the bridge. 20ft t-top boats with no riggers or radar can't get under it when closed. That's not a rich man's issue. That's an everyman's issue.

    As for downtown Stuart, it's hard to enjoy and stroll or outdoor meal with trains blasting by every 10 minutes. The traffic buildup at the 2 roundabouts will cripple traffic passage, even on faster moving trains. These trains will be going much slower than advertised thru downtown so that they can negotiate the curve in Jensen.

    Including the loxahatchee in Jupiter, this will affect upwards of a billon dollars of property
  • RodHRodH Posts: 186 Deckhand
    So the train will be going significantly slower when it goes through town? That's extremely bad news.

    So who can tell me exactly what us average Joes can do to get involved and get this stopped? Can it be stopped?

    Thanks.
  • LastMangoLastMango Posts: 4,574 Officer
    RodH wrote: »
    Okay, so somebody please enlighten me, why is this bad, other than boaters will have to wait?? Trust me, I'm not trying to be funny or mean, but the truth is, most folks could care less about the impact the trains will have on boaters.

    Now, if you're talking downtown Stuart, please tell me, other than some stuff will be rattled around, how it will affect the area.

    I live actually east of the railroad in Stuart (Rocky Point), and I don't like the idea of 32 more trains at all. I just need some really good data and reasons to oppose it. Yes, I know it will stop my commute to where I work more than I'm stopped now (which is occasionally), but please, give me a truly great reason to run with the lets stop this crowd.

    I have discussed this in detail in other threads...
  • RodHRodH Posts: 186 Deckhand
    Sorry, Mango, hadn't seen those threads.
  • Machine HeadMachine Head Posts: 2,634 Officer
    RodH wrote: »
    So the train will be going significantly slower when it goes through town? That's extremely bad news.

    So who can tell me exactly what us average Joes can do to get involved and get this stopped? Can it be stopped?

    Thanks.

    Sign the petition and spread the bad news.
    "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." - Kenneth Grahame
  • jad1097jad1097 Posts: 9,611 Admiral
    LastMango wrote: »
    I am sure Charlie supports it just as much as Rick, only differently........ Charlie (whom I've met) would openly support tax payer subsidies... Rick, supports it through his cronyism and deception. Only a puffy flower world fool would truly believe that this train will operate without subsidies, bailouts, etc. The fact is, it's "other people's money" (tax payer money) and they (Rick and Charlie) are both politicians, so, the only skin they have in the game is their ego and shady personal gain of some kind.

    The entire concept wouldn't pass round one in a rudimentary high school marketing-finance research project that contained a mere smidgen of critical thinking. It would be laughed off the white-board at the earliest possible concept stage.

    As I have stated from day one, this train will wreak havoc on Stuart and Jupiter boaters because the train bridges will be down 75%+ of the day due to the need of a window of 25-35 min PER TRAIN to lower the train bridge completely to ensure that if there is a problem lowering the train bridge fully that an approaching train can safely stop prior to the final approach of the bridge. 32 trains a day is a LOT of trestle bridge down time...

    Next in line for severe impact? Historic Downtown Stuart. I've said it before here, and I will say it again... The impact on Historic Downtown Stuart will be devastating.... I am still willing to bet a nice diner on this one with Realtor Dave / NegotiatoR. :wink

    Also, I fully believe that there is far too much momentum to stop this now. It will have to run for 3-5 years, maybe 5-7 (with subsidies and bailouts of course) before it goes away, and by then, the damage will be done to property values close to the railroad and West of the trestle bridges (home owner boat traffic interference) and places like Historic Downtown Stuart as 32 trains a day wizzzz by vibrating pictures and glasses off the shelves and scaring the hell out of moms with kids in strollers.

    Once again, Washington DC and Local Government walks on the people/hand that feeds them...


    Who are you voting for? Are they against this?
  • MaribellaMaribella Posts: 508 Officer
    Ok, how do I say this....

    It's too far gone, at least in my lifetime, to reverse the damage done by the needs of the automobile and what it means to the american way of life. We have created a system around the car and while it's not sustainable, it is what we currently have. There was a time in our history where we could have beefed up mass transit and specifically rail and been much better off for it now but that is not the direction we went during the mid 1930's, 1940's into the mid 1950's. Unfortunately, for rail at least, cheap oil and corporate greed fueled a shift away from mass transit and towards the idea that companies could sell more oil, more tires, more bus tickets, more trucks and more cars. Standard Oil, Firestone tires, Greyhound bus, Mack Trucks, and General Motors quietly bought up most of the rail systems in the country and ran them in the ground then converting the stations to bus stations. They were all convicted of conspiracy to monopolize interstate transit but it was either a slap on the wrist or acquittal for them later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

    Around the mid 1950's the eisenhower interstate system was born and the rest as they say...is history.

    Most of our cites around the country are not workable without a car. Life revolves for most around the car and our systems of roads, and strip malls are functions of that.

    It would take such a colossal undertaking to get us back to alternative mass transit like rail. It would also require something drastic like severe oil shortages and alternative technology advancement and these are all topics way beyond the scope of this discussion on the high speed rail in Florida. People only change when they are forced to. Americans will fight to the death for their cars and the freedom they represent.

    So, in the bigger sense, within the context of how insane the 3000 mile caesar salad is, rail should be something used more in our future. The big question is: how painful will it be to leave behind the unsustainable ways we currently operate under?

    I think once we see gas in the $8 to $10 a gallon range, this discussion may be a little more to ponder.

    In the meantime, it seems like a paradox to me: No body will ride the train because there are so many cars out there on the roads.
    Captain James Jolly

    RYlyzXj.jpg

    Maribella Charters, LLC
    www.MaribellaCharters.com
    ph: 772.222.7101
    [email protected]
  • LastMangoLastMango Posts: 4,574 Officer
    Maribella
    While your response is detailed, and somewhat well thought out, and “a new concept or perspective for some I am sure”, your hypothesis is somewhat analogous to ship travel was killed by the Titanic incident and not the airplane. Or horses went away because GM and Ford conspired and bought all the horse buggy seats for car seats from the horse and carriage guys faster and at more $$$ than the horse owners could so the horse went away.

    I’m familiar with the link you provided, and hope others will read it, and understand that their goal wasn’t to “eliminate cars” but to force another “alternative form of mass transit”, e.g. busses. - - Anytime, anything, big co’s, big gov’t works to “force” a market ****, we should be against it.

    I hope others will read this as well:

    “Others say that independent economic factors brought about changes in the transit system, including the Great Depression, the Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, labor unrest, market forces, rapidly increasing traffic congestion, urban sprawl, taxation policies that favored private vehicle ownership, and general enthusiasm for the automobile.[2] More recently Guy Span, a noted writer on the subject has suggested that Snell and others fell into simplistic conspiracy theory thinking, bordering on paranoid delusions[n 1] saying "Clearly, GM waged a war on electric traction. It was indeed an all out assault, but by no means the single reason for the failure of rapid transit.”

    And this - - “Also, it is just as clear that actions and inactions by government contributed significantly to the elimination of electric traction."[n 2]”

    Fact is, it’s been 60+ years since the cited incident and mass transit is still a failure in the US by any (and nearly all) measures (Except Disney).

    When you say “the current system of cars isn’t sustainable”, how is it that mass transit is? How would it support to rural communities effectively? Why is it, that mass transit requires MASSIVE tax payer subsidies if it’s “sustainable”?

    I for one, avoid the interstates when I can, and drive the old US Highways, 301, US-19, US 41/441, 70, 60, et al when I can. Why? Because it’s more scenic and I prefer to stop at a small town for fuel and food to support a small local business and meeting the people there, working to make their lives exist the old way, rather than an interstate exit where everyone else is crowded into the same franchise mess after another (which, by the way is what you get with “mass” transit, millions of people smashed together living the hamster wheel life) which is why I find it a dichotomy of the typical Liberal mentality, e.g. pro mass transit, but hates big corporations (but unlike the Liberals of the 60’s that hated big government, they love it today… But, I’m off point as to the real topic)

    The point is, even though I prefer the non-interstate travel, I don’t hate the interstate, and it seems as if you’re actually quite anti-personal motorized vehicle (gas should be $8 to $9 a gal., which is what you’re implying) but, maybe I’m over reading into that…

    Anyhow, it’s nice to see a dialog of your type here, and even if I don’t fully agree, I for one appreciate your kind of thinking and sharing of a different perspective in a well thought out manner…
  • VeroDDVeroDD Posts: 322 Deckhand
    Hiaasen says it best...
  • RodHRodH Posts: 186 Deckhand
    Mango,

    Enlighten me on the politics of this issue. I don't mean the big business, Obama, Christ/Scott stuff already somewhat brought up ... I'm referring to the politics as you've brought up in your post. Is this an us (conservative) vs them (liberal) issue? Is this one of those areas that if it's mass transit then by golly it's got to be supported (if you were on the liberal side)? Appreciate any insight you have.
  • LastMangoLastMango Posts: 4,574 Officer
    RodH, I'm fiscally conservative, socially liberal and I'm also an entrepreneur, so I tend to look at things from a perspective of "does it make sense, have we done our research, are there prior examples or models we can analyze, how will it be paid for, who are the beneficiaries, and who will experience a negative impact"... As these are always the elements of any DOE (design of experiment or experience) outside of utopia, of course… This is simple practicality and the mind of a critical thinker.

    I believe in “the collective” but I am pragmatic enough to see what the chemistry and culture is of “the collective” and wish that everyone else did or would as well… I believe in fairness, but, what is fair and how do we measure it, fairness? Is it contribution, or need? Is it skill minus handicap, or skill plus handicap? Is it what we inherited, or what we created? Should we reward those that contribute equally with those that contribute nothing, although they both are capable or handicapped?

    A system, where everyone contributes what they have and receives according to their gifts is what? Is this socialism, or is the capitalism? Point me to systems that have failed, and those that have succeeded and lets study them with equal vigor and critical thought, and the answers are quite blatantly revealed…
  • RodHRodH Posts: 186 Deckhand
    There are no single, simple answers to any of those questions. And quite frankly, the "answer" might also lie in the eyes of the beholder, if you get my drift.

    If you apply your initial questions to this issue (the train), then this all becomes very simple....the train isn't a good idea for those of us who live around here. Now, I will say this, on the questions of past models or examples, you might be hard pressed to find something that fits exactly, but my guess is there are some out there. The whole question of mass transit and the need, or lack thereof, and what can we do about vehicle traffic, doesn't work on that question, in my opinion.

    Thanks for the conversation.
  • LastMangoLastMango Posts: 4,574 Officer
    RodH wrote: »
    There are no single, simple answers to any of those questions. And quite frankly, the "answer" might also lie in the eyes of the beholder, if you get my drift.

    Exactly, as is the case with many things in life, in particular when "emotion" is involved, and politicians today only speak to emotions and not facts.
  • SnookMan772SnookMan772 Posts: 661 Officer
    Tax dollars is one thing.. Just wait until business start failing in places like Downtown Stuart, because ultimately if it's a "hassle" to get there because of the frequent trains then ultimatley people will stop going there. It's a slippery slope from here on..

    And the icing on the cake... Discharges from Lake 0 and C14 continue. 6 million dollar oyster renourishment project FAILED "all dead now" thanks to the billions of polluted fresh water discharges... Flesh eating bacteria found in the IRL, etc...

    Thousands of years to create. Weeks/months to eliminate...
  • Flyers UpFlyers Up Posts: 655 Officer
    SFWM they do whatever they want, most of the fish gone in the north fork.
    I read the All Aboard plan over the weekend doesnt look like we the people can stop it. I wish that a Seaside sparrow or gopher turtle was found living on the stuart bridge. LOL
  • Flyers UpFlyers Up Posts: 655 Officer
    Petition Signed...
  • MaribellaMaribella Posts: 508 Officer
    LastMango wrote: »
    Maribella
    While your response is detailed, and somewhat well thought out, and “a new concept or perspective for some I am sure”, your hypothesis is somewhat analogous to ship travel was killed by the Titanic incident and not the airplane. Or horses went away because GM and Ford conspired and bought all the horse buggy seats for car seats from the horse and carriage guys faster and at more $$$ than the horse owners could so the horse went away.

    I’m familiar with the link you provided, and hope others will read it, and understand that their goal wasn’t to “eliminate cars” but to force another “alternative form of mass transit”, e.g. busses. - - Anytime, anything, big co’s, big gov’t works to “force” a market ****, we should be against it.

    I hope others will read this as well:

    “Others say that independent economic factors brought about changes in the transit system, including the Great Depression, the Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, labor unrest, market forces, rapidly increasing traffic congestion, urban sprawl, taxation policies that favored private vehicle ownership, and general enthusiasm for the automobile.[2] More recently Guy Span, a noted writer on the subject has suggested that Snell and others fell into simplistic conspiracy theory thinking, bordering on paranoid delusions[n 1] saying "Clearly, GM waged a war on electric traction. It was indeed an all out assault, but by no means the single reason for the failure of rapid transit.”

    And this - - “Also, it is just as clear that actions and inactions by government contributed significantly to the elimination of electric traction."[n 2]”

    Fact is, it’s been 60+ years since the cited incident and mass transit is still a failure in the US by any (and nearly all) measures (Except Disney).

    When you say “the current system of cars isn’t sustainable”, how is it that mass transit is? How would it support to rural communities effectively? Why is it, that mass transit requires MASSIVE tax payer subsidies if it’s “sustainable”?

    I for one, avoid the interstates when I can, and drive the old US Highways, 301, US-19, US 41/441, 70, 60, et al when I can. Why? Because it’s more scenic and I prefer to stop at a small town for fuel and food to support a small local business and meeting the people there, working to make their lives exist the old way, rather than an interstate exit where everyone else is crowded into the same franchise mess after another (which, by the way is what you get with “mass” transit, millions of people smashed together living the hamster wheel life) which is why I find it a dichotomy of the typical Liberal mentality, e.g. pro mass transit, but hates big corporations (but unlike the Liberals of the 60’s that hated big government, they love it today… But, I’m off point as to the real topic)

    The point is, even though I prefer the non-interstate travel, I don’t hate the interstate, and it seems as if you’re actually quite anti-personal motorized vehicle (gas should be $8 to $9 a gal., which is what you’re implying) but, maybe I’m over reading into that…

    Anyhow, it’s nice to see a dialog of your type here, and even if I don’t fully agree, I for one appreciate your kind of thinking and sharing of a different perspective in a well thought out manner…

    Definitely not working to derail (pun intended) this thread and certainly appreciate that you see my intentions fairly well. I've been covering 3 states by car for nearly 20 years and certainly need my car so you are reading between the tracks a bit for sure. I can say that over the years, I used to be scared as chit at the idea of living in a rural area like lower alabama or southern Georgia (or much of north florida for that matter) and when I drove around, I thanked my lucky stars that I lived in the city and enjoyed the things that go along with it. As I grew older, I began to tire of the city and really began to appreciate the country and it's people. When it came time to settle down and start a family, I chose a low density area in Martin county for a nice blend of relative proximity to cities and old florida feel. So, I'm with you, I think, on your thoughts of the scenic route etc..

    I feel that the whole idea of "america" was misguided following WWII with the whole "American dream" suburban sprawl, all the highways and strip malls surrounding the exits. To this day, one of the solutions by planners for better fuel economy is to add another lane of interstate to relieve gridlock. Aside from a brief reversal of a downward curve in oil production due to shale, tar sands and dirty oil (which again is beyond the scope of this discussion) we are producing less oil today than we were yesterday. Briefly, I know there is mainstream media hype galore pushing the new oil boom in america but if you look at the science behind it, tar sands require massive amounts of fresh water (not infinite supply) and natural gas to super heat the water and release the oil form the sand. Aside from a negative EROI, there are also severe environmental impacts from the wastewater from this process.

    So, at this point, what are the answers for non oil / non I.C. motor applications for vehicles? Each step of the infrastructure requires oil. Hybrids and their hi tech materials are actually more energy intensive to build and less recyclable and most people are unaware that 99% of cars in the world (including hybrids) still use I.C. motors. There simply is not enough oil accessible in the world to convert the 25 million internal combustion engines over to whatever alternative could be developed. There was a time when we could have put the manpower and capital into an alternative but if you think what low hanging fruit we were working with at that time in the 1940's and how cheap and easy it was to find oil, why would you expect someone to have the foresight to make a change. This is where I was going with the $8 or $9 a gallon gas. It's not that I'm against people having cars or feel or want that gas should be $20 a gallon, it's just that people will not change until they are forced to and, in my opinion, it's already too late to make a switch without heavy wailing and nashing of teeth.

    So we have this situation that can not be avoided: What is the alternative to oil? There simply is not anything in place or even close that we could implement with our current infrastructure (run on oil) in time before the remaining oil would drive the energy equivalent of a return on investment (EROI) into such a negative return that it simply could not happen in our current system. Shoot, we can not even meet our current unfunded liabilities for the largest generation in the history of the country coming into retirement.

    I believe more so that in the future that life will become intensely more local and that it's a natural progression and ok. I think that rail could be a sustainable way of moving people and commerce around once oil hits a point where our current system no longer can grow and begins to decline.

    I've put 250,000 + miles on more than a few cars in my career and flown over 1,000,000 miles on american airlines plus god knows how many other miles on other airlines. My current boat has over 3,000 hours on it after 10 years of ownership. I've really enjoyed life during this period of time but unfortunately, for myself and others in Gen X and Y and the Millenials, the baby boomer party may still be raging but the punch bowl is already empty..

    For the record, on this high speed train idea, I do not think it should have anything to do with tax payer dollars. Then again, I also feel that the creature from Jeckle Island and the IRS are also ready for the firing squad too. If anyone is paying attention on the international scene, our power of the printing press is coming to a halt so many things will, in fact, work them selves out in our lifetimes. It may not be pretty but it's happening. BRICS have their own monetary fund in place and the days of the petro dollar and United states dollar having reserve currency status are severely numbered.

    This high speed train project, in the bigger scheme, is peanuts to me. There are plenty of things out there like hydraulic fracking, GMO's, industrial factory farming, fukushima, and the mess in the gulf from the deepwater horizon oil spill, that are more relevant to our wellbeing.

    If we had a rail system in place that worked, I would use it. I go out of my way sometimes to take the tri rail or amtrak but it does not work for my job. The problem with rail is that our towns are not built with walkable centers of commerce with surrounding hinterlands providing food for that town like the old world. Our towns not walkable and our food travels an average of 3,000 miles from factory farm to your table. You have to have a car to get around in all but a handful of cities in the USA. This, I do not believe, will change in my lifetime...
    Captain James Jolly

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    Maribella Charters, LLC
    www.MaribellaCharters.com
    ph: 772.222.7101
    [email protected]
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