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Push Pole Ejection with Aluminum Pole Holders

mbowersmbowers Posts: 496 Deckhand
On my old 189 hull with the C shaped pole holders I lost the push pole once in 7 years and it broke after jumping out. I was okay with a broken pole every 7 years. With the new 189 hull the push pole has ejected itself from the front holder twice in the last 5 trips and broken when trapped between the poling platform and the rear holder. I'm not okay with breaking a pole 10 times a year. Frank's suggestion is to keep the push pole centered on the holders with the foot end out front, approx aligned with the bow and add a bungee cord to the front holder. I'm uncertain that a bungee alone will keep the pole inside the front holder.

Any suggestions about maybe leaving the pole well to the back so just a short section with the foot is in front and less likely to eject itself? Let the spike on the rear drag in the water at least when not on plane?

Replies

  • 91tiger91tiger Posts: 555 Officer
    I assume the pole is popping out of the holders while you are running on the water, not riding down the road? Can you tell which end is popping out, the end towards the bow or the stern? Do you point the fork to the bow or stern? I guess I could see water on the fork popping it out if it is pointed to the stern.

    I have the aluminum pole holders too and so far have had no issues. However, I do a lot of freshwater fishing so I don't have my pole on the boat about half the time. When I trailer form NC to Florida I tie the pole down with electrical ties.

    Please update us on what you figure out. I would hate for my daughter or another passenger to be injured by a pole suddenly flying wild in the boat.

    Thanks.
  • mbowersmbowers Posts: 496 Deckhand
    91tiger wrote: »
    I assume the pole is popping out of the holders while you are running on the water, not riding down the road? Can you tell which end is popping out, the end towards the bow or the stern? Do you point the fork to the bow or stern? I guess I could see water on the fork popping it out if it is pointed to the stern.

    I have the aluminum pole holders too and so far have had no issues. However, I do a lot of freshwater fishing so I don't have my pole on the boat about half the time. When I trailer form NC to Florida I tie the pole down with electrical ties.

    Please update us on what you figure out. I would hate for my daughter or another passenger to be injured by a pole suddenly flying wild in the boat.

    Thanks.

    I almost always tie down the pole when on the trailer and have had no issues there. When on the water the problem only happens if I have already used the pole and it's no longer tied down. It seems to need to be a 2ish foot tight chop with 20mph head wind. Fork is to the bow and it's the front holder that the pole jumps out of so the pole falls to the outside of the boat. The middle holder is on the inside of the pole so it's out of play immediately. The front of the pole slides backwards a little and then catches the water and spins away from the boat. As the front of the pole spins in the water, the rear gets caught up somewhere between rear pole holder and poling platform and snaps back there. Nice loud crack like a gunshot but I don't think anyone in the cockpit is in much if any danger based on my now extensive experience. If someone is standing against the poling platform on the push pole side they might be in a danger zone. I could maybe chop the throttle as soon as I see the pole jump IF I'm looking at the right time but then that might hurt people by throwing them forward. Better to let the pole break I think..

    I can mentioned that a short section (18" say) of 1.25" dowel makes a great temporary ferrule to put the pole back together. Probably worth carrying one on the boat for the $2 it costs. This last time I never even got to make a proper repair before the pole jumped ship and broke again.. :(
  • Saltwater JunkieSaltwater Junkie Posts: 1,086 Officer
    mbowers wrote: »
    On my old 189 hull with the C shaped pole holders I lost the push pole once in 7 years and it broke after jumping out. I was okay with a broken pole every 7 years. With the new 189 hull the push pole has ejected itself from the front holder twice in the last 5 trips and broken when trapped between the poling platform and the rear holder. I'm not okay with breaking a pole 10 times a year. Frank's suggestion is to keep the push pole centered on the holders with the foot end out front, approx aligned with the bow and add a bungee cord to the front holder. I'm uncertain that a bungee alone will keep the pole inside the front holder.

    Any suggestions about maybe leaving the pole well to the back so just a short section with the foot is in front and less likely to eject itself? Lt the spike on the rear drag in the water at least when not on plane?

    You probably have a 21 or 22' push pole. Is it happening when your trailering the boat or just in a 3 foot slop? If you flip the holders, so the front one and the back one are facing out ( the c is facing away from the boat) the pole won't get trapped between the rear holder and the platform, when it bounces off. You can also move the foward holder inboard so the outside screw on the holder lines up with inside hole on the deck and then drill a new outside hole. Check before you drill but the base of the holder should hide the other hole. This will provide more tension on the pole and making it a little more difficult to bounce off. What happens is that the longest end of the push pole will flex and bounce off. If the longer end is to the back the water can knock it out of the holder. Again this is usually when it's snotty. It sucks having to stop and turn around to go pick it up. Try moving the front holder inward. I don't remember but I may have moved both the front and back holders inward. (Stiffy makes the holders with the bungee.)

    Good Luck...Pete
  • Renagade69Renagade69 Posts: 1,234 Officer
    My 22 Blackfin Push Pole never moves an inch on the alum holders Frank uses. It might be the perfect diameter.
    Hells Bay Estero Bay Boat and Hells Bay Marquesas
  • Saltwater JunkieSaltwater Junkie Posts: 1,086 Officer
    Nevemind...I just realized you guys have the fancy aluminum ones...Could be the diameter like mentioned above.
  • Carolina FlyCarolina Fly Posts: 71 Deckhand
    Not a solution to your problem but similar subject that I had happen that you guys with the aluminum holders ought to know. Last weekend I was down in Charleston doing some redfishing and was about to put the boat back on the trailer. There was a swift cross current so I thought if I didn't hit the trailer perfect, the front of the pole with the foot was sticking out at the bow might catch the guide post on the trailer. So I slid it back. When I got the boat loaded I noticed the stern holder was gone. Obviously, when I pulled the pole back it caused the rear holder to turn counterclockwise and unscrew itself. It's now at the bottom of the channel. I'm leaving tomorrow for a week in Islamorada so I needed a replacement. The good news is I called Frank and ordered a new one and I got it the next day. He suggested to install them with some Loctite so it doesn't happen again. By the way, I have a 167 and when used normally the holders put a really big bend in my pole which bothers me. So I put my pole so it is on the inside of the front and back holders as normal but use a loop of line on the rod to the middle holder which only puts a small amount of tension on the pole. When the boat is parked in the garage I keep my pole on brackets mounted on the wall.
  • trponhuntertrponhunter Posts: 249 Deckhand
    My pole would fall off as well with those rod holders. I used to use a velcro strap around the front holder - that's all it took.
    *Previous - 2000 Egret 189 carbon w/ vmax 150 - twin rotating prop
    *Previous - 2008 Egret 189 carbon w/ ETEC 150
    *Previous 2010 Beavertail Vengence w/ETEC 90
    *Current - 2015 Beavertail BTV w/ Suzuki 90
  • Larry418Larry418 Posts: 78 Deckhand
    I lost one two weeks ago running fast in 2 ish chop.
    The pole wasn't particularly stiff and I had it positioned too far forward causing some movement .
    The diameter of the pole wasn't a perfect fit for the holders which contributed to it popping out.
    The new pole is stiffer, but not a perfect fit either.positioning the tip further to the rear keeps it a bit more 'still'.
    In a nutshell....it rides better positioned further back.
  • UnderslotUnderslot Posts: 370 Officer
    crazy!! I've gone through the craziest of chop with out a single problem on the aluminum holders. I have a 21' Loop... maybe your push pole isn't stiff enough. I know the loops are pretty ridged. If its a big issue I'd use a bungee, I did that on an old jon boat I had.
  • mbowersmbowers Posts: 496 Deckhand
    Larry418 wrote: »
    I lost one two weeks ago running fast in 2 ish chop.
    The pole wasn't particularly stiff and I had it positioned too far forward causing some movement .
    The diameter of the pole wasn't a perfect fit for the holders which contributed to it popping out.
    The new pole is stiffer, but not a perfect fit either.positioning the tip further to the rear keeps it a bit more 'still'.
    In a nutshell....it rides better positioned further back.

    That was my experience / thoughts as well. My pole is a carbon super light pole that I have from my old Egret so I would expect it to be relatively stiff. It probably doesn't matter how stiff the pole is, if the holders are in just the right spots on the pole you can set up a vibration mode shape that aligns very well with the oscilating forces from the chop and the front of the pole will move around a lot. I will try to keep the pole further back and add a velcro strap to the front holder.

    Good news is I found Mad River Outfitters in Ohio would sell me 3 push pole ferrules for $10 ea with no charge for shipping because I bought more than $25. Sure beats Carbon Marine and Stiffy that wanted $40 per ferrule. That's 75% cheaper at Mad River! Now I can fix the two breaks for $20 and still have a spare for the next break!
  • mbowersmbowers Posts: 496 Deckhand
    I bought a new pole because I haven't gotten around to getting the wood dowel out of the last broken pole. This pole last two trips LASHED down to the front and rear push pole holders just like recommended in this thread before jumping ship and breaking. I can not afford to keep a pole on the boat with those aluminum hourglass holders. That's three broken push poles in less than a year so the holders have got to go. It's a pretty design for a push pole holder but obviously not functional if your fishing plans include travel in more than a one foot chop.
  • FlatsBoyFlatsBoy Posts: 1,390 Officer
    I carried my push pole a stiffy fiberglass with the new Aluminium holders and never lost the pole on my 189! I even went from Punta Gorda to Pine Island across the harbor running 40 plus and never did it want to come undone and it was choppy!
    Guess you just have bad luck with push poles!
    I'll sell you my fiberglass stiffy push pole cheap if you need a replacement I never put push pole holders on the 2011!
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    mbowers wrote: »
    I bought a new pole because I haven't gotten around to getting the wood dowel out of the last broken pole. This pole last two trips LASHED down to the front and rear push pole holders just like recommended in this thread before jumping ship and breaking. I can not afford to keep a pole on the boat with those aluminum hourglass holders. That's three broken push poles in less than a year so the holders have got to go. It's a pretty design for a push pole holder but obviously not functional if your fishing plans include travel in more than a one foot chop.

    Based on the number of incidents I think your holders (or one of them) are not mounted in the correct position creating less tension than is required to hold the pole secure. I have run for years with the aluminum in all kinds of conditions and never even close to an issue with a 21' pole.
  • mbowersmbowers Posts: 496 Deckhand
    Based on the number of incidents I think your holders (or one of them) are not mounted in the correct position creating less tension than is required to hold the pole secure. I have run for years with the aluminum in all kinds of conditions and never even close to an issue with a 21' pole.

    Well they were factory installed despite written instructions not to install them. The locations of the holders from the stern edge of the deck are at 7.5", 95" and 44" in relative terms or 7.5", 102.5" and 146.5" in absolute terms. Can anyone who can spare the time please post their push pole holder locations?

    I am also constrained by the factory installed Power Pole to have less than 40" of push pole behind the stern holder or the Power Pole will take out the push pole.. With a 24ft push pole that leaves 100" out the front but I don't have any other choice!

    Using my drag scale it takes about 5lbs to dislodge the push pole from the front push pole holder. A measurement on that would be great too!
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    mbowers wrote: »
    Well they were factory installed despite written instructions not to install them. The locations of the holders from the stern edge of the deck are at 7.5", 95" and 44" in relative terms or 7.5", 102.5" and 146.5" in absolute terms. Can anyone who can spare the time please post their push pole holder locations?

    I am also constrained by the factory installed Power Pole to have less than 40" of push pole behind the stern holder or the Power Pole will take out the push pole.. With a 24ft push pole that leaves 100" out the front but I don't have any other choice!

    Using my drag scale it takes about 5lbs to dislodge the push pole from the front push pole holder. A measurement on that would be great too!

    5 lbs would depend on exactly from where you pull. The closer you pull from the end the less force it will take. I have no idea how much pressure mine takes but I estimate it's a lot more than 5 lbs from where I would typically grab it to deploy. When stowed it has a decent bend in it and it is very secure. I placed the holders myself so it would fit properly around the bimini holder when up and also not affect the rod locker hatch when open to full vertical and also no issues with powerpole or any hatches. I have never had any issue with the powerpole no matter how much pole sticks out back and sometimes mine drags some. I am pretty sure your set up is off and probably by quite a bit considering all of these problems you have noted. If its set up properly, your push pole is not going to move even running in lots of slop and I would say you're more at risk with more pole sticking out front bouncing up and down than sticking out back, particularly if the foot is facing up front. I always keep more out of the back than front if the seas are rough to avoid most of the movement in the pole. I am not familiar with the notion that it can only stick out so far to avoid an issue with the powerpole. Perhaps your pole deploys off angle. My power pole deploys straight back so no interference weather the pole sticks out a foot or 10'. But if yours does deploy at an angle your push pole should fit back there inside the angle to avoid any interference when operating the power pole at any length of pole sticking out.
  • Renagade69Renagade69 Posts: 1,234 Officer
    Martin. You can take my push pole for a ride. It will stay on the boat. I drove in some bad stuff and it does not budge. The Blackfin factory is in Stuart.
    Hells Bay Estero Bay Boat and Hells Bay Marquesas
  • mbowersmbowers Posts: 496 Deckhand
    5 lbs would depend on exactly from where you pull. The closer you pull from the end the less force it will take. I have no idea how much pressure mine takes but I estimate it's a lot more than 5 lbs from where I would typically grab it to deploy. When stowed it has a decent bend in it and it is very secure. I placed the holders myself so it would fit properly around the bimini holder when up and also not affect the rod locker hatch when open to full vertical and also no issues with powerpole or any hatches. I have never had any issue with the powerpole no matter how much pole sticks out back and sometimes mine drags some. I am pretty sure your set up is off and probably by quite a bit considering all of these problems you have noted. If its set up properly, your push pole is not going to move even running in lots of slop and I would say you're more at risk with more pole sticking out front bouncing up and down than sticking out back, particularly if the foot is facing up front. I always keep more out of the back than front if the seas are rough to avoid most of the movement in the pole. I am not familiar with the notion that it can only stick out so far to avoid an issue with the powerpole. Perhaps your pole deploys off angle. My power pole deploys straight back so no interference weather the pole sticks out a foot or 10'. But if yours does deploy at an angle your push pole should fit back there inside the angle to avoid any interference when operating the power pole at any length of pole sticking out.

    I used the end of the pole to front to measure force required. It really is a torque (force X distance) measurement as you mention but I figured the end of the pole was the best reference location. I've been running with the foot of the pole to the stern since the first break but that just isn't much help. I too wanted to have the option to install the holders myself to optimize location as you did and had that in writing but they were already installed when I saw the first pictures of the boat. I was told there is only one correct location for all the holders that holds the pole securely without breaking the pole so I just capitulated on that minor screwup. I agree that something is badly amiss and it's probably the Powerpole installation that doesn't allow the push pole to extend off the stern. I will call the factory to discuss a remedy. I would still appreciate any measurements of the pushpole holder locations measured from the stern edge of the deck!

    Thanks for the offer Frank on using your pushpole but you should really take a look at the boat before I take you up on that offer. :) I don't want to get into the $4000 mark of broken pushpoles since I now know the boat is screwed up in its layout.

    Here's a pic of the Powerpole deployed and the pushpole in the holders.

    2014-02-10_21-15-18_716.jpg
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    I wouldn't like having a powerpole that deploys at an angle if you also use a push pole. I guess you must have two of them. That is an issue I would say. If your not paying attention one day and stick it back there a little too far, there is your next push pole disaster waiting to happen. Just a matter of time. I can immediately see that your rear holder is a little further over towards the rub rail and also more fowared than where I installed mine. With my bimini set up, I had very tight tolerances to work with so everything would fit together properly without interference and it took a long time to measure and set it up. Years ago I used to have less torque on the pole on my original boat and lost a pole like you described and that was with the old type holders. With the new set up I wanted more holding torque. I have never had it move since and I have run some pretty big waves out there in boca grand channel and the like. It doesn't take much of an adjustment to create a lot more torque on the pole. Why don't you just move your front holder over more away from the rail maybe an inch or so. Unscrew the front holder, put some tape on the front deck and put the holder along side the pole and use it to push the pole over from in front to a point where it feels very tight but still wont cause a hatch issue and trace the outline of that spot with a pen. Then release the pole, stick your holder on the spot and stand back and see if you can live with that. That is probably the easiest fix unless you want to switch out your power pole. You would have to marine tex the hole where you removed it but there is no getting around fixing a hole somewhere to get the problem solved. One or maybe two of your holders need a little moving. Maybe you can move two of them such that the holder will still cover the old hole after patching but still create a lot more holding torque. Perhaps instead of moving just the front one over say an inch you can move the front one 1/2" and the rear one 1/2". It should take a lot more than 5 lbs of force to pull it out. Raise up all of your hatches and the locker and if you have a bimini put it up before going final to make sure of no interferences. You want to be able to stow the pole with the bimini up so the location of the middle holder vs. the bimini attachment is very important (if they are right next to each the pole wont fit).
    20140211_115417_resized_zps2636ddb3.jpg
    20140211_115450_resized_zpsc84fc794.jpg
    20140211_115524_zpsd4f2cad2.jpg
  • mbowersmbowers Posts: 496 Deckhand
    I wouldn't like having a powerpole that deploys at an angle if you also use a push pole. I guess you must have two of them. That is an issue I would say. If your not paying attention one day and stick it back there a little too far, there is your next push pole disaster waiting to happen. Just a matter of time. I can immediately see that your rear holder is a little further over towards the rub rail and also more fowared than where I installed mine. With my bimini set up, I had very tight tolerances to work with so everything would fit together properly without interference and it took a long time to measure and set it up. Years ago I used to have less torque on the pole on my original boat and lost a pole like you described and that was with the old type holders. With the new set up I wanted more holding torque. I have never had it move since and I have run some pretty big waves out there in boca grand channel and the like. It doesn't take much of an adjustment to create a lot more torque on the pole. Why don't you just move your front holder over more away from the rail maybe an inch or so. Unscrew the front holder, put some tape on the front deck and put the holder along side the pole and use it to push the pole over from in front to a point where it feels very tight but still wont cause a hatch issue and trace the outline of that spot with a pen. Then release the pole, stick your holder on the spot and stand back and see if you can live with that. That is probably the easiest fix unless you want to switch out your power pole. You would have to marine tex the hole where you removed it but there is no getting around fixing a hole somewhere to get the problem solved.

    Thanks for the pictures. On my hull the middle holder is towards the outside edge and the bimini is inside the push pole so I did not have the tight squeeze you did. I think the rod locker hatches are also smaller on the newer deck so there was more room to work with. There is only one PowerPole and it is mounted to a Powerpole bracket because I didn't want to drill more holes in the transom. That bracket appears to be the root of a lot of problems with the boat. Frank did object to the Powerpole bracket during the build but my only recollection of a reason was that the bracket is made out of aluminum and not stainless like the old ones. I certainly do not remember a warning that the bracket would cause frequent broken push poles and cracks in the transom:

    2014-02-11_09-57-41_498.jpg

    Thankfully Frank will take the boat back up to the factory and address some of those issues.

    Can people with the factory mounted aluminum push pole holders PLEASE send measurements for the location of the holders? I'm especially interested in Carolina Fly's locations that put a big bend in the push pole. Big bend = safe pole, little bend = broken pole.

    If the holders are only suitable for a very specific diameter / manufacturer of pushpole then that really needs to be communicated to the boat owner! Also any restriction on length of push pole should also be communicated: based on my conversation with Frank I think the holders are only designed for a 21ft or shorter push pole.
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    Why don't you remove the bracket and have it bent so the powerpole deploys straight back instead of at an angle?
    Will it cause interfere with the engine? If not, I would do that. If it would interfere with the engine have a longer bracket made that will work to create a straight deployment with no interference or mount the powerpole directly to the boat and forget the hole concern. It's really not that big of a deal. Then to create the holding power for the push pole move your front or rear holder in a little creating more torque on the pole. If moving one does not work, move the front and rear holder. It doesn't take much of an adjustment to create a substantive difference in the holding power. I would not set it up to someone else's measurement for their holders. Unscrew your holder(s) and test move them in until the hold is tight enough for your rig and your pole and see where they need to be.

    That angle on the powerpole looks like an accident waiting to happen. I would try to avoid any interference with the Powerpole no matter how much push pole sticks back.
  • mbowersmbowers Posts: 496 Deckhand
    Why don't you remove the bracket and have it bent so the powerpole deploys straight back instead of at an angle?
    Will it cause interfere with the engine? If not, I would do that. If it would interfere with the engine have a longer bracket made that will work to create a straight deployment with no interference or mount the powerpole directly to the boat and forget the hole concern. It's really not that big of a deal. Then to create the holding power for the push pole move your front or rear holder in a little creating more torque on the pole. If moving one does not work, move the front and rear holder. It doesn't take much of an adjustment to create a substantive difference in the holding power. I would not set it up to someone else's measurement for their holders. Unscrew your holder(s) and test move them in until the hold is tight enough for your rig and your pole and see where they need to be.

    That angle on the powerpole looks like an accident waiting to happen. I would try to avoid any interference with the Powerpole no matter how much push pole sticks back.

    The Powerpole will interfere with the welded on rod holders on the poling platform if I bend the bracket so the Powerpole goes straight back. The newer platforms have rod holders that angle back at 45deg to the rear and are not flush with the stern which is why a bracket that angles straight back was not used. I was not aware of that conflict when I insisted on the bracket. The aluminum bracket would also have to be power coated again if I bend it and that just seems like a whole lot more expense. I would still have the problem of the bracket cracking the gelcoat so it just seems like a much better idea to get rid of the bracket completely.

    I do not want to use anyone else's numbers to set up my boat but I want to see what they are for reference. I've been told there is only one possible combination of locations that works but that doesn't make sense to me, and obviously was not a concern for you when you set up your holders in a way that works for you! :)
  • Last-CastLast-Cast Posts: 219 Deckhand
    If you go back to the thread titled "A keyed lock for the vented fuel fill" I took a picture of my fuel cap/vent area on the boat. One thing that is different on the older boats is it seems our forward push pole holder is in front of the fuel cap instead of behind it. That would probably be why there is more tension on mine I still have the original moonlighter holders. Never got around to swapping them out. In all the years I have been running my boat I only lost my push pole once and that was a winter trip coming back from the rock pile out of ENP. I got caught in a front coming through the gulf on the way back in. The rock pile is about 7 miles off shore of Shark River in Everglade National Park. Back in the day it was a great trip. Now there are too many Goliath Grouper and Sharks. I got tired of feeding them.
    Egret 189
    Maverick 17T sold
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