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Penn Senator 4/0 or Daiwa Sealine 400H?

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  • aquaholikaquaholik Posts: 332 Deckhand
    I actually prefer the "narrow" Penn Baja Special. It doesn't torque side to side and easier for newbies to lay line on the reel evenly. No problem with Gag and AJ's and lord knows I can't hold a 20lbs drag that long against a large tuna anyway.
  • HooganHoogan Posts: 547 Officer
    lemaymiami wrote: »
    As folks have noted the Sealines run rings around the Senators... While Daiwa was busy innovating Penn kept making their solid reels that were state of the art in the 1950's.. They did upgrade them finally after years and years but it was too little and far too late. That's how Newell got its start, making upgrade kits for Penn reels so that they would stand up to what the long range boats out of California were doing with them (but that's another story....).
    First, I grew up fishing with Penn, first a Long Beach 65, quickly followed by a Squidder and then (off course) followed by a "red" 4/0 then 6/0...12/0... You get the picture, what one grows up with we generally become loyal to for life. Then I began servicing reels at age 15, now I'm 54, became an East coast reel innovator and self-proclaimed reel guru - LOL.
    Just like lemaymiami,I witnessed Lee Pro, Accurate and the rest improve the Penn products to battle the West coast YFT, you would think Penn would have caught on and upgrade their own product right? Actually they did the exact opposite, the quality of their side plates went from maroon to red, they did away with the jumping sailfish left sideplate to plain, they removed the oil ports on the respective screws, their plastic handle knobs went from red, green, bone color to some cheap white or black knob, their quality triple plating was replaced with unfinished stainless steel, I can come with at least another dozen of downgrades. In the mean time Daiwa and Shimano are coming up with improved state of the art products, not enough... Penn actually continues to downgrade their products, ( with the exception of one piece aluminum spools and carbon drags: HT-100's) have you ever compared side to side a circa 70's 113h/114h with a circa 90's 113h/114h the quality reduction is visible.
    TunaNorth: do you have anything to say about the short lived "Penn Senator 113 Metal" ? What a sad display of complete junk, personally I purchased two from Mark Smith at Charbait, took one out of the box, gave the handle a few turns and that was sufficient for me to call Charkbait and advise them that they were on the way back...
    Then finally Penn makes the Baja Special, only that now they are 20 years too late behind Daiwa and the Accuframed/Accuplate Penns and to add insult to injury they ONLY cater to the West coast crowd by offering only in narrow frame, never mind Hawaii and East coast would have loved a regular and a wide frame version. Furthermore instead of extending the line of such a good reel and offering the same design in 3/0 size again in narrow, regular and wide , they discontinue the reel --- WOW... yes, I took one of the first reels available in south Florida and was totally amazed with the engineering, but again Penn made this move twenty years too late, at too high a price and too unfriendly with very high side plates almost extending half an inch off the spool lip, yes sturdy but unnecessarily bulky and unfriendly. Sometimes I wonder where reel manufacturers get their production engineers, sincerely.
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    "bitter?" Why such a cheerleader for Penn 113HN, so much so you gleefully evade all the other $250 reels? The topic being 'Penn Senator 4/0 or Daiwa Sealine 400H' - reels less than half that price, would appear to preclude 113HN from even being considered.
    Tunanorth wrote: »
    Why so bitter?
    I have been working closely with the SD fleet for over 4 decades, please don't pretend that you know anything about it.

    I didn't & "don't pretend" - I reported exactly what a big chunk of "the SD fleet" themselves say on their websites. NONE of "the SD fleet" on 2 pages of Google hits offered 113HN. And it wasn't about "recommendations" it was about the reels chosen by "the SD fleet" themselves, to be carried/rented for customer's use.

    With all due respect to how things are done in SD, this is the 'Florida Sportsman Fishing Forum'. The OP was well advised to pick Daiwa Sealine over Penn Senator.

    Might be interesting to start another thread: Best $250 Offshore Reel?

    Wonder if a narrow, plastic side plate, star drag would even be in the running?
  • swampmonsterswampmonster Posts: 323 Deckhand
    When I bought my 4/0 money was not the issue. I just wanted something I had trusted before and I did not know there were options. I did not shop price or look at anything else. I trusted before and penn has lost my trust now.
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Know what you mean.
    When I bought my 4/0 money was not the issue. I just wanted something I had trusted before and I did not know there were options. I did not shop price or look at anything else. I trusted before and penn has lost my trust now.

    First time I saw a broken one-piece graphite frame Penn Senator with screws threaded directly into plastic stripped out was an eye opener. When did the 1st plastic subframe Senators come out - 30 years ago?

    Penn's trim ring supported plastic side plate design helped make deep sea reels affordable to the masses during the Great Depression. Senators were introduced in ~1936.

    Sales of replacement plastic side plates & trims rings may have tipped the balance & allowed Penn to survive. Countless anglers routinely paid more for parts to fix dad's old Senator than the reels originally cost. For decades Penn's parts distribution was w/o peer.
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    Hoogan wrote: »
    First, I grew up fishing with Penn, first a Long Beach 65, quickly followed by a Squidder and then (off course) followed by a "red" 4/0 then 6/0...12/0... You get the picture, what one grows up with we generally become loyal to for life. Then I began servicing reels at age 15, now I'm 54, became an East coast reel innovator and self-proclaimed reel guru - LOL.
    Just like lemaymiami,I witnessed Lee Pro, Accurate and the rest improve the Penn products to battle the West coast YFT, you would think Penn would have caught on and upgrade their own product right? Actually they did the exact opposite, the quality of their side plates went from maroon to red, they did away with the jumping sailfish left sideplate to plain, they removed the oil ports on the respective screws, their plastic handle knobs went from red, green, bone color to some cheap white or black knob, their quality triple plating was replaced with unfinished stainless steel, I can come with at least another dozen of downgrades. In the mean time Daiwa and Shimano are coming up with improved state of the art products, not enough... Penn actually continues to downgrade their products, ( with the exception of one piece aluminum spools and carbon drags: HT-100's) have you ever compared side to side a circa 70's 113h/114h with a circa 90's 113h/114h the quality reduction is visible.
    TunaNorth: do you have anything to say about the short lived "Penn Senator 113 Metal" ? What a sad display of complete junk, personally I purchased two from Mark Smith at Charbait, took one out of the box, gave the handle a few turns and that was sufficient for me to call Charkbait and advise them that they were on the way back...
    Then finally Penn makes the Baja Special, only that now they are 20 years too late behind Daiwa and the Accuframed/Accuplate Penns and to add insult to injury they ONLY cater to the West coast crowd by offering only in narrow frame, never mind Hawaii and East coast would have loved a regular and a wide frame version. Furthermore instead of extending the line of such a good reel and offering the same design in 3/0 size again in narrow, regular and wide , they discontinue the reel --- WOW... yes, I took one of the first reels available in south Florida and was totally amazed with the engineering, but again Penn made this move twenty years too late, at too high a price and too unfriendly with very high side plates almost extending half an inch off the spool lip, yes sturdy but unnecessarily bulky and unfriendly. Sometimes I wonder where reel manufacturers get their production engineers, sincerely.



    You are indeed correct about lack of innovation at various periods, and the management teams that made the bad decisions you mention are gone. Some retired, some are out of the industry, some are at other tackle companies, I speak to several of them often.
    Regarding the Metal Senator specifically, I agree it was a terrible reel, and said so in every field-test report; good thing it only survived a single production run. The guy who green-lighted that project is out of the industry.
    I never comment on other reel brands except for size, price, and timeline-type topics.
    Baja Special size choice expansion is still on the table; and very true that in the era of highly castable lever drags, that 4/0 star drags are not necessarily always the appropriate choice, but when they are, its still the best.
    Believe what you want about it's SDLR useage; although if you don't think its good as a "narrow", how is it going to be any better as a "standard"?.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • HooganHoogan Posts: 547 Officer
    Tunanorth wrote: »
    Believe what you want about it's SDLR useage; although if you don't think its good as a "narrow", how is it going to be any better as a "standard"?.

    I did not mean to convey that the 113HN is a "bad" reel at all. I was probably one of the first to own (and dismantle) the Penn Baja in South Florida, I was shocked and amazed at what I discoverred inside, no resemblance to any Senator I had ever gutted before ! double dogs, versa drags, free floating spool, HUGE SS ball bearings, incredible torque, I sold my two Bajas because (just like the original Torque-300) it was too bulky for a reel with such a narrow spool, and other offerings such as the Saltiga 30T allowed me to bottom fish all day (and night) with less fatigue and more sensitivity. But quite frankly the 113HN IMO is the best star drag reel ever made by Penn including the latest versions of the Torque and so on. If Penn made a 3/0 size Baja in narrow and regular width frame I'd be all over it. As far as the plastic side plates - not an issue at all ( as long as the frame is one piece aluminum we're good to go.)
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    "bitter?" Why such a cheerleader for Penn 113HN, so much so you gleefully evade all the other $250 reels? The topic being 'Penn Senator 4/0 or Daiwa Sealine 400H' - reels less than half that price, would appear to preclude 113HN from even being considered.



    I didn't & "don't pretend" - I reported exactly what a big chunk of "the SD fleet" themselves say on their websites. NONE of "the SD fleet" on 2 pages of Google hits offered 113HN. And it wasn't about "recommendations" it was about the reels chosen by "the SD fleet" themselves, to be carried/rented for customer's use.

    With all due respect to how things are done in SD, this is the 'Florida Sportsman Fishing Forum'. The OP was well advised to pick Daiwa Sealine over Penn Senator.

    Might be interesting to start another thread: Best $250 Offshore Reel?

    Wonder if a narrow, plastic side plate, star drag would even be in the running?


    Apologies if the OP put a price restriction on his choices, I did not see that. [*Edit- no such restriction was posted by OP]
    In Baja, the names grouper and cabrilla are used interchangeably, with the informal dividing line being at about 30 pounds.
    Depending on where you are, the many variations within this family are the primary catch aboard Baja pangas, along with yellowtail [AJ's slightly smaller first cousin], several "pargo" species [aka snapper], and there are plenty of AJ's in Baja too. The parallels are very close to Florida.
    Regarding the 4 Point Loma Sportfishing LR boats, 2 are sponsored by other reel companies, one is sponsored by Penn, and one is not affiliated. The two latter boats do in fact offer Baja Specials as loaners [though use is actually free]. You do illustrate a bit of work I need to follow up on; its harder than you think to get anything changed on a boat's website.
    To Hoogan: just to clarify, the 113HN was discontinued briefly in 2008, but reinstated in 2009, and has been in continuous production since then.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    "bitter?" Why such a cheerleader for Penn 113HN, so much so you gleefully evade all the other $250 reels? The topic being 'Penn Senator 4/0 or Daiwa Sealine 400H' - reels less than half that price, would appear to preclude 113HN from even being considered.



    I didn't & "don't pretend" - I reported exactly what a big chunk of "the SD fleet" themselves say on their websites. NONE of "the SD fleet" on 2 pages of Google hits offered 113HN. And it wasn't about "recommendations" it was about the reels chosen by "the SD fleet" themselves, to be carried/rented for customer's use.

    With all due respect to how things are done in SD, this is the 'Florida Sportsman Fishing Forum'. The OP was well advised to pick Daiwa Sealine over Penn Senator.

    Might be interesting to start another thread: Best $250 Offshore Reel?

    Wonder if a narrow, plastic side plate, star drag would even be in the running?

    & so he did... http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?140208-Best-250-Offshore-Reel&p=1764509#post1764509
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • HooganHoogan Posts: 547 Officer
    Tunanorth wrote: »

    To Hoogan: just to clarify, the 113HN was discontinued briefly in 2008, but reinstated in 2009, and has been in continuous production since then.

    TunaNorth,
    Any reel geek like myself would know that...

    BTW - you overlooked mentioning that all Penn Bajas manufactured after June 2005 had an extra ball bearing added right under the belevelled washers under the star, on the gear sleeve, making that a total of 6 ball bearings, but Penn never actually made the correction on the reel box, only the reel manual would reveal if you had a 5 bearing reel or a 6 bearing reel respectively.
    Also - I don't know if you ever worked on a Penn Baja but the threads in the metal star are much looser than the threads on the orig. plastic star, consequently there were a lot of stripped gear sleeves as a result. I recommend the plastic star over the metal for that reason ( the threads on the metal star are looser and strip the threads on the gear sleeve at high drag settings) FYI...
    Contrary to Bloody Decker's opinions, there are a few... reels/tackle connoisseurs here in the East coast.

    BTW - you can follow some of my tutorials in no other than Alan Tani's website. :)
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    Hoogan wrote: »
    TunaNorth,
    Any reel geek like myself would know that...

    BTW - you overlooked mentioning that all Penn Bajas manufactured after June 2005 had an extra ball bearing added right under the belevelled washers under the star, on the gear sleeve, making that a total of 6 ball bearings, but Penn never actually made the correction on the reel box, only the reel manual would reveal if you had a 5 bearing reel or a 6 bearing reel respectively.
    Also - I don't know if you ever worked on a Penn Baja but the threads in the metal star are much looser than the threads on the orig. plastic star, consequently there were a lot of stripped gear sleeves as a result. I recommend the plastic star over the metal for that reason ( the threads on the metal star are looser and strip the threads on the gear sleeve at high drag settings) FYI...

    BTW - you can follow some of my tutorials in no other than Alan Tani's website. :)



    Yup, I only go as deep as the conversation requires to conserve my typing fingers!
    The metal star is actually off the original TRQ300.
    The guy who green-lighted the plastic star over my vehement objections [field-test models had metal stars] is now selling sunglasses.
    I am Steve Carson over on Alan's site; its too much trouble to change all of my old accounts to my boring real name.
    Keep fishing with your 113HN's, and have a great New Year!!!!
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    Tunanorth wrote: »
    Yup, I only go as deep as the conversation requires to conserve my typing fingers!
    The metal star is actually off the original TRQ300.
    The guy who green-lighted the plastic star over my vehement objections [field-test models had metal stars] is now selling sunglasses.
    I am Steve Carson over on Alan's site; its too much trouble to change all of my old accounts to my boring real name.
    Keep fishing with your 113HN's, and have a great New Year!!!!
    So is there a problem w/the Metal Star (as described by Hoogan) ??? Certainly sounds like it...
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • HooganHoogan Posts: 547 Officer
    So is there a problem w/the Metal Star (as described by Hoogan) ??? Certainly sounds like it...

    Unfortunately yes, the metal star ( out of the TQ300 as pointed by Tunanorth) is not a perfect match on the 113HN, you can actually feel it wobble on the gear sleeve of the 113HN, and that causes the threads to strip. I even went to the trouble of stocking a few of the orig. plastic star and a few gear sleeves.
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    Well that sucks... Have they fixed that issue w/the current reels ? Funny that almost 'everyone' looking for 113HN wants the 'Metal Star' & Tuna North said the Plastic Star guy got fired...
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    Well that sucks... Have they fixed that issue w/the current reels ? Funny that almost 'everyone' looking for 113HN wants the 'Metal Star' & Tuna North said the Plastic Star guy got fired...




    I'm sure Hoogan must have seen some or he would not have brought it up; but its not an "issue", and of the 10 "loaners" I personally own for the Penn Fishing University excursions, along with the various crew use and onboard loaner 113HN reels I keep track of, I've never seen it, or heard of it on a 113HN, but did see it on a few first-year production [2005] TRQ100's that were "hammered down".
    I will say that I no longer have any of the 5 BB versions, only the 6 BB 2006-onward versions, and cannot positively recall if there might have been something with those and the retrofitted metal stars. My old reels are usually "retired" down to the East Cape pangeros, and all of my 5 BB 113HN's are still fishing down there suffering daily abuse. I carry extra metal stars on all trips, and still find stray plastic ones here and there that I automatically replace for people onboard, but never ever an issue once the metal ones are installed.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • HooganHoogan Posts: 547 Officer
    Well that sucks... Have they fixed that issue w/the current reel ?.

    I do not know. The threads were just a bit loose, enough to have them jump under high load and therefore cause the stripped gears. The plastic star for some reason is a tight fit and does not jump threads.
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    Hmmm... Thanks to you both for the (somewhat different) answers...
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    So how much of the Made in USA Baja Special is assembled out of parts from China? The 6 ball bearings are Chinese. Had heard that many handles were replaced under warranty b/c knobs became loose & that they were made in China. Any truth to the rumor BS frames are imported?

    A little bird said: "parts such as ball-bearings, screws and such... may indeed be from... China, or other countries."
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    So how much of the Made in USA Baja Special is assembled out of parts from China? The 6 ball bearings are Chinese. Had heard that many handles were replaced under warranty b/c knobs became loose & that they were made in China. Any truth to the rumor BS frames are imported?

    A little bird said: "parts such as ball-bearings, screws and such... may indeed be from... China, or other countries."



    Yup, just like every other reel maker, US and otherwise; Penn does not manufacture its own screws, springs, or ball-bearings, they buy them from outside suppliers.
    Off the top of my head, the only reels I know the specific origin of the BB's from are TRQLD2's, which is from Germany.
    You are definitely incorrect about the 113HN handles being replaced under warranty.
    As for any frame "rumor"; now you're just making stuff up.
    I'll check specifically about the 113HN BB's, but not until next week; have a safe and Happy New Year's Eve [and 2014!].
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • P.cliffordP.clifford Posts: 226 Officer
    The Baja 113HN is a very good reel. It's been proven with the west coast long range guys and the New England cod fisherman. It's not gold and sparkly, but it is a solid workhorse. I do wish they made a 3/0 size as well. Good luck


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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