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Is a new inlet the answer for Indian River Lagoon? attemt #3

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  • Lunch Money SurfLunch Money Surf Posts: 1,033 Officer
    PP1 wrote: »
    The sewage treatment plants are pretty heavily regulated and tested as far as their outflow nutrient and other contaminant loading.......I don't believe they are as big a problem as some seem to think. Some plants don't even outflow to the lagoon and instead use deep well injection or flow the treated water through wetlands (which provide additional treatment) to the St. Johns. These disposal methods all have their own controversies......really any disposal method does.

    I believe the main culprit is what is called non point meaning it comes from the area. For example, a bunch of beautiful green St. Augustine lawns, especially directly connected to the estuary either through waterfront (direct waterfront, canal, etc...), is pretty much a sure bet for loading some stuff into the system that shouldn't be there. Those lawns are going to be watered regularly and I don't know that you can keep them in great shape without chemicals. It may be possible but I've never been one to care to have a nice lawn though. The neighbors either love me because I make theirs look so good, or hate me because mine does not. The only folks I see with those beautiful lush lawns I also see putting crap on them regularly and of course mucho water.

    Septic tanks, street runoff, and other sources really add to the whole problem. Doing nothing and letting it get worse is of course not the right thing, but it may not be as simple as just digging an inlet.


    As far as the water consumption, if you don't believe the meter readings you can probably call to have them test it. Another way would be to estimate your usage. Each spray head is putting out between 1 and 5 gpm at 30 psi according to the manufacture data from the ones they sell at lowes and HD (I just picked out the normal ones that are about $4/head). Some quick assumptions to just get a ball park feel is 2 gpm/head and 5 heads per zone.....that gives 10 gpm. Now assume total irrigation time of 2 hrs/day for 15 days a month comes out to 18,000 gallons. If you have more heads or water more than every other day it really adds up. If I did the calculations and it was just way off no matter how I did it you would bet I'd be raising some stink about it.

    Did you see one of the earlier threads with the P and N numbers from my neighbor?

    Short summary: I have a neighbor who is an environmental engineer. We live in a neighborhood with canals off the Banana River. He took some muck samples from various locations and the nitrogen and phosphorus numbers were off the charts... hang on I'll see if I can find it.
  • Lunch Money SurfLunch Money Surf Posts: 1,033 Officer
    PP1 here is the quote I mentioned above.

    It is from this thread from back in May: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?110055-Health-of-Banana-and-Indian-Rivers

    For what it's worth, the articles from FT that started that thread have continued... I have never seen any public acknowledgement by the newspaper in my life... and we've been talking about how nasty the river is getting since the 80s...

    Of course now that the newspaper is giving it attention, my conspiracy sense is telling me that the big-money (Duda or the Port) is just using this as a smoke screen to royally rat flarn the rest of us
    redsnducks wrote: »
    Interesting topic/read. Interestingly, to meet new EPA-mandated total maximum daily load (TMDL) requirements for the Lagoon, the local counties/municipalities negotiated in there basin management action plans what they thought was going to be a sweet deal for them. To comply, rather than monitoring nitrogen and phosphorous - they would rely on the true indicator of lagoon health - sea grass density at monitored transects (a good approach). This was thought to be a victory because sea grasses had actually been increasing in distribution in the last decade - so they would be in compliance (i.e. be able to essentially do little and continue saying that the little that they have been doing has been working). However, the MASSIVE sea grass die offs of the last 2 years is going to put the Counties in a tough spot when those transects are re-assessed for density. What is going to happen is significant storm water upgrades are going to become a requirement to meet the TMDL and Counties/local cities may get a hard whack from the Feds - they will be out of compliance. They deserve it. The lagoon has been studied to death, they know the problems, and they know how to fix it - but it takes money $$$$$. Correcting the problems of past developers is going to be HUGE. Just think LMS - the canals we live in on SB receive 100% stormwater runoff from our houses with ZERO treatment. In our neighborhood there is 300 or so houses. Pretty much everyone puts down at least 30 lbs of fertilizer per year - that is 9,000 lbs of fertilizer and it is a given that a good 25% of that runs off with stormwater/leaches to canals - so that is over 1 TON of fertilizer going into our small neighborhood canal system. That is why the water in our canal system is NASTY - multiply that by multiple neighborhoods with ZERO or "presumptive" treatment. My daughter did her 6th grade science fair project at Sea Park on phosphorous and nitrogen content in lagoon sediments. I helped her collect sediments from our canal system (basically black mayonnaise), grand canal, off of PAFB, and west side of B. River further north where some small remnants of sea grass hang on. Samples were run by an analytical lab I work with on occasion and the results were pretty telling - our canal system has such ridiculously high levels of N and P that there is no chance of restoration until they are dredged - big $$$$. You mention Crane Creek, that was dredged a few years back, the right course of action was taken and a significant ongoing sediment issue was addressed, unfortunately, when you look upstream and realize that there have been very limited improvements at the watershed level to control runoff, the Creek is going to be in the same shape in a few decades.

    My hope is that EPA steps in and imposes strict regulations - this is not a problem that is going to be solved by voluntary compliance or politicians. These little stormwater utility fees/taxes that are being collected is a tiny bandaid and it is going to take a real commitment. Unfortunately, are politicians cant seem to recognize the dollar value of a healthy lagoon.
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,925 AG
    I have a neighbor who is an environmental engineer. We live in a neighborhood with canals off the Banana River. He took some muck samples from various locations and the nitrogen and phosphorus numbers were off the charts... hang on I'll see if I can find it.

    Jim L is your neighbor?
    He is a GREAT guy....and very knowledgeable about the IR "issues".....
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • PP1PP1 Posts: 332 Deckhand
    Thanks for the links LMS. I did not see any of that before.....think I have some reading to catch up on now. The information from the quote you included from redsnducks does not surprise me in the least.
    "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
  • O.SEA.DO.SEA.D Posts: 648 Officer
    PP1 here is the quote I mentioned above.

    It is from this thread from back in May: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?110055-Health-of-Banana-and-Indian-Rivers

    For what it's worth, the articles from FT that started that thread have continued... I have never seen any public acknowledgement by the newspaper in my life... and we've been talking about how nasty the river is getting since the 80s...

    Of course now that the newspaper is giving it attention, my conspiracy sense is telling me that the big-money (Duda or the Port) is just using this as a smoke screen to royally rat flarn the rest of us

    couldn't agree with you more LMS. After my attempt to participate in Freddie Patrick Boat Ramp issue at the port I realized there's no stopping issues that affect us recreational fishermen and boaters. The monied interests are just to powerful in this county to go up against with grass roots efforts.

    I hate to say it but we will need a organization like $MC that masquerades as a grass roots group and mobilizes the locals but they've got some serious cash in the bank and full time staffers on the payroll to really make the wheels of government turn in their favor.
    2011 Aeon Pro Guide 23'
    Etec 250
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 478 Deckhand
    A new inlet just N of PAFB is a great idea. It would at least be a good start to dilute the phos/nitrogen
  • redsnducksredsnducks Posts: 51 Greenhorn
    PP1 wrote: »
    The sewage treatment plants are pretty heavily regulated and tested as far as their outflow nutrient and other contaminant loading.......I don't believe they are as big a problem as some seem to think. Some plants don't even outflow to the lagoon and instead use deep well injection or flow the treated water through wetlands (which provide additional treatment) to the St. Johns. These disposal methods all have their own controversies......really any disposal method does.

    I believe the main culprit is what is called non point meaning it comes from the area. For example, a bunch of beautiful green St. Augustine lawns, especially directly connected to the estuary either through waterfront (direct waterfront, canal, etc...), is pretty much a sure bet for loading some stuff into the system that shouldn't be there. Those lawns are going to be watered regularly and I don't know that you can keep them in great shape without chemicals. It may be possible but I've never been one to care to have a nice lawn though. The neighbors either love me because I make theirs look so good, or hate me because mine does not. The only folks I see with those beautiful lush lawns I also see putting crap on them regularly and of course mucho water.

    Septic tanks, street runoff, and other sources really add to the whole problem. Doing nothing and letting it get worse is of course not the right thing, but it may not be as simple as just digging an inlet.


    .

    I just noticed this post today, it is a good read. I think something that everyone needs to remember is that while WWTPs do not discharge directly to the lagoon (a great thing), old sewer lines leak like a sieve. Just think many of the barrier island homes are on sewer - but the lines are 50 yr old concrete with joints every 8 ft. When it rains rainwater floods them and increases the flow - the same thing happens in reverse at other times, there are losses to infiltration to groundwater. The groundwater containing N and P is transported to and discharges to the lagoon. WWTPs are great; however, the infrastructure also requires maintenance - Cocoa Beach is struggling with this issue and actually trying to slip-line some of their older large laterals (a good thing). Of course, there are miles and miles of old pipes in the ground.

    In my humble opionin - we need a politician or Feds to step up to the plate and place an ENERGENCY MORATORIUM BANNING FERTILIZER USE within a set distance (like 100 ft - not 10!) of any surface water or drain inlet which directly connects to the lagoon or canal running into the lagoon. The decrease in N and P would be dramatic!!!
  • O.SEA.DO.SEA.D Posts: 648 Officer
    As a waterfront home owner in CB I wouldn't have any issue with banning fertilizer/ pesticide usage for a house like mine where the run off goes right into the Thousand Islands. Reason is we have access to reclaimed water in CB and that is all the fertilizer you need to keep St. Agustine grass lush and green. I have many neighbors around me that I see the trucks pulling up to and spraying hundreds of gallons of chemicals and fertilizer on their yards month after month. Yea, you could say some of the yards looks a little better but then again, my yard also looks better then one house that has all the treatments.

    My next door neighbor is from New York, great guy and has a amazing looking yard and I'm sure he spends quite a bit of money on lawn service, yard pest control and has a liquid fertilizer service. On top of all that he waters with reclaimed. One day we had a conversation about it and he basically said his lawn guy told him he needs all that stuff to keep his yard green. He even chuckled that he's pretty sure the lawn guy appreciates that he will always have a job as he's not interested in taking care of his own yard and the grass grows like crazy in his opinion.

    So I think the hardest part is going to be reaching folks like my neighbor and educating him on what's best for the lagoon vs. his yard. Unfortunately we can expect significant opposition from the commercial interests if home owners like my neighbor started canceling their monthly treatment services and not going to Home Depot to buy 50 lbs. bags of fertilizer.

    The whole inlet thing is nothing but a distraction to keep us from focusing on the real problem by suggesting something that the vast majority of us wants but is totally unrealistic. I saw this on display when the Port asked us to participate in the green dot exercise for the new boat ramps. They purposely put up many options that were unrealistic so as to dilute the voting for any one particular spot. If the unrealistic options wouldn't have been up fro votes I believe the clear majority of the votes would have been to keep the boat ramps in essentially the same place with slight modifications to the layout.
    2011 Aeon Pro Guide 23'
    Etec 250
  • MadScientistMadScientist Posts: 3,402 Officer
    I do this kind of work, but mostly on lakes and rivers. The basic concepts are the same, but normally fresh water focuses first on P, salt water focuses first on N. But both N and P management will play a role. From a management perspective, the lack of a gaseous component to the overall cycle makes P somewhat easier to address, compared to N.

    Establishing target loading rates for shallow water bodies seems to relate to the hydraulic retention time of the system (water exports -excluding evaporation/ system volume). In Florida lakes, there is an exponential decrease in acceptable P loading with increasing hydraulic retention time. When the retention time is less than a month, acceptable loading may be greater than 1 MT P/km2/yr. That quickly drops to around 0.1 MT P/km2/yr when the retention time is over a year.

    To put those numbers in perspective, atmospheric loading of P in Florida ranges from about 0.02-0.08 MT P/km2/yr. Here you must consider direct atmospheric loading onto the water body and a portion of atmospheric loading onto the watershed. You can see how atmospheric loading alone can account for most if not all of the target loading rate.

    Of course septic tanks are another factor. For every 2,000 people on septic, that averages 1 MT P/yr into the environment. How much of that ends up in the drainage system and water body depends on a lot of things, but it should start to give an idea of the problem.

    Another problem is internal loading of nutrients. Because we have a considerable legacy of excess nutrient loading, recent sediments in the water bodies contain much more nutrients than the sediments contained when loading targets were exceeded years ago. Since no process in nature is 100% efficient, including sedimentation, some of the sedimented nutrients will recycle to the water column. Here we have another difficult source of P to manage.

    Another problem that is difficult to manage is light attenuation by dissolved organic matter (tannin). This is measured in color Pt units and it decreases light penetration just like algae (measured in ug/L Chl a) and light penetration is important for seagrass. Every 3 color Pt units attenuates light similarly to 1 ug/L of Chl-a. Color values may run from 20-100. So that's like an extra 7-35 ug/L Chl-a that you can't control with nutrient loading management.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm all for management of nutrient loads. I just think people need to realize that it may not be enough.
  • redsnducksredsnducks Posts: 51 Greenhorn
    I agree with all that....but at the end of the day the biggest immediate bang for the buck would be to simply ban fertilizer application in areas that 1) drain directly to the lagoon and 2) do not have a stormwater management system that is designed to effectively (through documented testing results) remove P and N. While atmospheric deposition is real, a ride though SB or CB canal system tells the story - the difference in water quality from the nutrient laden canals to the lagoon is dramatic. Often times you can literally see the nutrient (algae) plume coming out of these canals into the lagoon.

    Nothing against lawn fertilizer companies BUT I recently had a large well know lawn treatment company stop by my house and I played stupid and have him give me a proposal to ensure I had a nice green and weed free lawn. I ended up getting a proposal that included a MINIMUM of 6 treatments per year. I then asked if they had any "environmentally friendly stuff" that was slow release N and Phosporous free and after looking at me like I was a nut, went back to his truck, made a phone call and then came back to me with an alternative proposal that was $600 higher. Take it for what it is worth; however, the canal neighborhoods are now loaded with older homeowners that want nice lawns and have "services" for this sort of stuff and they are paying big $$ to companies to load the canal with N and P.
  • Lunch Money SurfLunch Money Surf Posts: 1,033 Officer
    redsnducks wrote: »
    I agree with all that....but at the end of the day the biggest immediate bang for the buck would be to simply ban fertilizer application in areas that 1) drain directly to the lagoon and 2) do not have a stormwater management system that is designed to effectively (through documented testing results) remove P and N. While atmospheric deposition is real, a ride though SB or CB canal system tells the story - the difference in water quality from the nutrient laden canals to the lagoon is dramatic. Often times you can literally see the nutrient (algae) plume coming out of these canals into the lagoon.

    Nothing against lawn fertilizer companies BUT I recently had a large well know lawn treatment company stop by my house and I played stupid and have him give me a proposal to ensure I had a nice green and weed free lawn. I ended up getting a proposal that included a MINIMUM of 6 treatments per year. I then asked if they had any "environmentally friendly stuff" that was slow release N and Phosporous free and after looking at me like I was a nut, went back to his truck, made a phone call and then came back to me with an alternative proposal that was $600 higher. Take it for what it is worth; however, the canal neighborhoods are now loaded with older homeowners that want nice lawns and have "services" for this sort of stuff and they are paying big $$ to companies to load the canal with N and P.

    I'd venture to say that there are a very high number of folk in the area whose only awareness of the river is that it's the thing that the bridge goes over.

    A fertilizer ban in a county where Duda has so much influence is hard to imagine. If you drive out to the end of Wickham you'll see more acres of sod that you could ever dream of. Not to mention all the wonderfully maintained lawns of Viera (which of course is Duda too).
  • Lunch Money SurfLunch Money Surf Posts: 1,033 Officer
    duckmanJR wrote: »
    Jim L is your neighbor?
    He is a GREAT guy....and very knowledgeable about the IR "issues".....

    Yes and they even let me stay in the neighborhood but only because my wife is good looking :)
  • Its easy to point fingers and blame Industry, Fertilizer or other man made conditions, but there is a LOT of
    changes in mans impact over the years that have actually worked the other way. Consider these variables
    in the discussion:

    1) Outboard technology. With high fuel cost, overall boat use is actually down from 5-6 years ago, and fuel
    efficiency as well as clean burning 2 strokes and 4 strokes mean much less pollutants in the water.

    2) Orange industry. Well, what's left. Runoff from this in years past was big, but today is only a fraction of what
    it was decades ago along with the industry.

    3) Development. Much like the economy, development has slumped, and particularly with the Space related
    industries current position. This has created a big turn a round from a booming growth to what is today only
    a small percentage of what it was 6-8 years ago.

    4) Water restrictions. A decade ago this started taking off in many Florida communities. It even impacted when
    you could wash you car where I live. Less lawn watering, less fertilizing, less runoff. With this has come more
    drought resistant strains of grass, requiring less fertilizer.

    5)Regulations on Fishing and Wildlife. A few decades ago the biomass of the IRL and ML were but a fraction
    of what they have become in our time. Red's and Mullet were nearly wiped out, but with regulations put in place
    they have made this region the Hot Spot for them. Along with fish growth comes marine mammals that feed
    on them. More marine biomass equals more nutrients being added to the system.

    6)Remember the Titusville "Decaying Seaweed" odor of years past, that was really raw sewage being dumped
    into the river system? Well that's long gone, as are many long time sewage runoff's. While septic tanks in a
    natural marsh runoff system is basically a direct lane to the river, not so much with percolating effects in built
    up lands around developments. Newer septic systems may be a better option that treated sewage plants, since
    natural enzymes break down nutrients in the ground long before returning to the water shed, whereas sewage
    plants add manmade chemicals and enzymes to speed up the breakdown process before discharge.

    The Fertilized green Lawns that seem to be getting the blame for todays river woes have been around for decades,
    and with the drastically reduced development along our coast compared to recent decades, and current watering
    restrictions, I would speculate that runoff from lawn's, like the Citrus industry is much lower now that a few decades
    ago.

    While none of these points offer a solution, it does add talking points to collectively look beyond where fingers seem
    deposed to point, and to avoid a knee jerk reaction and new laws, regulations and restrictions that may or may not
    have results. Fresh water being otherwise retained artificially, diverted and otherwise used may be a big player, but
    despite man using a lot of water, we still see plenty fall from the skies and run to the ocean, so proper management
    is likely the direction to look.
  • MadScientistMadScientist Posts: 3,402 Officer
    I know that arguing doesn't do a whole lot of good on this forum, but I'm not sure what you mean here?
    Newer septic systems may be a better option that treated sewage plants, since
    natural enzymes break down nutrients in the ground long before returning to the water shed, whereas sewage
    plants add manmade chemicals and enzymes to speed up the breakdown process before discharge.


    Nutrients are elements (e.g. C, H, O, N ,P, K, Si), they cannot be broken down. Organic matter that may be rich in nutrients, can be broken down. This is good if it happens in an upland area because it will reduce the oxygen demand created if that OM were to reach the water body. But its also bad, because once the OM is broken down, the nutrients are delivered to the water body in an available form and that allows for rapid uptake by algae and cyanobacteria.
  • tunamantunaman Posts: 3,767 Captain
    Yes and they even let me stay in the neighborhood but only because my wife is good looking :)

    lots of vacant homes up here, if you ever want to move!!!! LOL
  • I know that arguing doesn't do a whole lot of good on this forum, but I'm not sure what you mean here?




    Nutrients are elements (e.g. C, H, O, N ,P, K, Si), they cannot be broken down. Organic matter that may be rich in nutrients, can be broken down. This is good if it happens in an upland area because it will reduce the oxygen demand created if that OM were to reach the water body. But its also bad, because once the OM is broken down, the nutrients are delivered to the water body in an available form and that allows for rapid uptake by algae and cyanobacteria.

    I may not be currently employed as a 'Scientist', nor am I 'Mad', but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once. The Elemental Nutrients used commonly in Lawn and Plant fertilizers such as N, K and Ph are only a drop in the bucket compared to the variety of Nitrates, Nitrites, Phosphates, etc, found in sewage. Those compound nutrients are indeed absorbed by a variety of biological creatures, used, and discharged as simpler nutrients, which are often used by other life forms. My point on Septic Tanks compared to sewage plants discharging 'treated' water into water bodies is that the household septic system typically discharges 'nutrients' that are absorbed by surrounding plant life, before they can travel to open water sources (when built correctly). With sewage plants, the chemicals and process's used to settle the nutrients before the remaining water is further 'Treated' and discharged into open water sources poses perhaps more risk than traditional back yard septic systems when it comes to unwanted nutrients getting into the marine habitat.

    As to runoff from lawn fertilizers, I do believe this, and associated agricultural fertilizing runoff is likely less than in years or decades past. It may be a slow and delayed cause and effect however, or a combination of other biomass in the river system from what was a growing fish stock over the last few decades that pushed it past the tipping point.

    In the end however, I feel there is more than just elemental or compound nutrients to blame, at least from purely manmade sources. It may well be the unintended consequences of conservation efforts in a very sensitive environment that tipped the balance, and even possible natural causes added to what man is doing. Its likely a complicated and compound assortment of several factors.

    While not sending raw sewage and needless fertilizer runoff directly into our waterways is a good thing, focusing on that alone may not solve the problem, and may end up missing other important and contributing factors.
  • MadScientistMadScientist Posts: 3,402 Officer
    I'm not going to argue you, nor will I make back handed insults about your screen name. I have both fished and worked on the IRL in the East Central. I may move there in the near future to be closer to an ailing, aging MIL. I quit posting fishing reports on here because I worry that they are used against us by NMFS.

    So far, I think I have understood what most people think about this issue. Let me try to summarize what you've said.

    (1) New septic systems are better than sewage treatment
    (2) Septic + sewage has a bigger impact than fertilizer
    (3) Increasing fish stocks may have triggered a shift in the ecosystem
    (4) Unintended consequences of conservation may have triggered a shift in the ecosystem
    (5) The current situation is the result of complex interactions
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,925 AG
    Yes and they even let me stay in the neighborhood but only because my wife is good looking :)

    I hear you....

    My wife and kids are nice....the only reason I haven't been burnt out or lynched....:grin
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,925 AG
    Lets not argue...since we all can agree that the Indian river is indeed imperiled and needs help.
    I think ACME brings up interesting angles/ideas on this...

    I'm not going to argue you, nor will I make back handed insults about your screen name. I have both fished and worked on the IRL in the East Central. I may move there in the near future to be closer to an ailing, aging MIL. I quit posting fishing reports on here because I worry that they are used against us by NMFS.

    So far, I think I have understood what most people think about this issue. Let me try to summarize what you've said.

    (1) New septic systems are better than sewage treatment....... I think this is a yes and no.... new septic may be better than old compromised sewer (Cocoa beach's leaky piping)....but not better than what is currently available technology

    (2) Septic + sewage has a bigger impact than fertilizer .... I agree...in some areas... this would be true

    (3) Increasing fish stocks may have triggered a shift in the ecosystem.... The cold snap of Jan 2010 put a "nutrient "bomb" in the system with decaying biomass

    (4) Unintended consequences of conservation may have triggered a shift in the ecosystem.... There are ALWAYS unintended consequences...it is unavoidable


    (5) The current situation is the result of complex interaction....... THE REAL "CULPRIT"

    I have contended all along we were victim of a "perfect storm" of various factors...some known...some still unknown. There is NO "magic bullet"....and the repairs will be long term...and expensive.
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • redsnducksredsnducks Posts: 51 Greenhorn
    I opened this thread up and the advertisment banner running is for a LAWN FERTILIZER company....nice FS. Based upon some of the comments indicating that restricting fertilizer use would be a "knee jerk" reaction when the science/data clearly exists makes one wonder if the author works for a lawn fertilizer company! I have nothing against fertilizer and green lawns west of I-95 and in developments with effective stormwater management systems, so Duda has no need to worry. The data is also clear that an acre of homes with green lawns contributes more pollutant load than an acre of citrus. So while citrus formerly contributed impacts to the lagoon, the housing developments they have been replaced by are far more damaging. I dont think anyone is saying that fertilizer is THE problem, it is one of MANY problems, but the reality is that it is an EASY problem to manage and a heck of a lot less expensiv than most solutions. There is some great data also available on the effectivness of street sweeping programs - we dont even have one in Brevard. In some cities/counties they have aggressive street sweeping programs in place that remove TONS of N and P destined for water bodies.
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,925 AG
    redsnducks wrote: »
    I opened this thread up and the advertisment banner running is for a LAWN FERTILIZER company....nice FS. Based upon some of the comments indicating that restricting fertilizer use would be a "knee jerk" reaction when the science/data clearly exists makes one wonder if the author works for a lawn fertilizer company! I have nothing against fertilizer and green lawns west of I-95 and in developments with effective stormwater management systems, so Duda has no need to worry. The data is also clear that an acre of homes with green lawns contributes more pollutant load than an acre of citrus. So while citrus formerly contributed impacts to the lagoon, the housing developments they have been replaced by are far more damaging. I dont think anyone is saying that fertilizer is THE problem, it is one of MANY problems, but the reality is that it is an EASY problem to manage and a heck of a lot less expensiv than most solutions. There is some great data also available on the effectivness of street sweeping programs - we dont even have one in Brevard. In some cities/counties they have aggressive street sweeping programs in place that remove TONS of N and P destined for water bodies.

    Well said Jim...

    Sebastian actually owns a street sweeper...but it has been broken for 5 years....and even if they fixed it...they don't have enough employees to actually use it...sad.
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • Lunch Money SurfLunch Money Surf Posts: 1,033 Officer
    redsnducks wrote: »
    I opened this thread up and the advertisment banner running is for a LAWN FERTILIZER company....nice FS. Based upon some of the comments indicating that restricting fertilizer use would be a "knee jerk" reaction when the science/data clearly exists makes one wonder if the author works for a lawn fertilizer company! I have nothing against fertilizer and green lawns west of I-95 and in developments with effective stormwater management systems, so Duda has no need to worry. The data is also clear that an acre of homes with green lawns contributes more pollutant load than an acre of citrus. So while citrus formerly contributed impacts to the lagoon, the housing developments they have been replaced by are far more damaging. I dont think anyone is saying that fertilizer is THE problem, it is one of MANY problems, but the reality is that it is an EASY problem to manage and a heck of a lot less expensiv than most solutions. There is some great data also available on the effectivness of street sweeping programs - we dont even have one in Brevard. In some cities/counties they have aggressive street sweeping programs in place that remove TONS of N and P destined for water bodies.

    I would never have guessed that street sweeping would be be effective... but now that I'm thinking about one of my favorite pet peeves, lawn guys with leaf blowers... it's like "all you've done is move the mess 2-3 feet from the sidewalk to the street"

    Who saw that there is an effort underway to apply for federal funds for river dredging i.e. muck cleanup? There was an article in FT on Friday that led me to believe this is a recent development.. but now I can't find the article....
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,925 AG
    It was in the Press Journal here...

    they are going to get 2 million...or....they will get just enough..to do next to nothing.
    They said they will study where best to use it....so..after the study is done..they can take the remaining $20 and go to lunch and discuss how F**ked we are....:wink
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • D-RodD-Rod Posts: 4 Greenhorn
    I would never have guessed that street sweeping would be be effective... but now that I'm thinking about one of my favorite pet peeves, lawn guys with leaf blowers... it's like "all you've done is move the mess 2-3 feet from the sidewalk to the street"

    Who saw that there is an effort underway to apply for federal funds for river dredging i.e. muck cleanup? There was an article in FT on Friday that led me to believe this is a recent development.. but now I can't find the article....

    http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013311090014
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,925 AG
    " A 50 year fix".... OR

    Basicly, we're boned.... :wink
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • StringpluckerStringplucker Posts: 64 Greenhorn
    duckmanJR wrote: »
    It was in the Press Journal here...

    they are going to get 2 million...or....they will get just enough..to do next to nothing.
    They said they will study where best to use it....so..after the study is done..they can take the remaining $20 and go to lunch and discuss how F**ked we are....:wink



    This made me laugh!!! There is nothing funnier than truth comedy!
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