If over the fiscal cliff will it end "earned income" tax rebates?

TriplecleanTripleclean Posts: 6,591 Officer
Are earned income tax rebates going to end?

I would like that.
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Replies

  • rickcrickc Posts: 9,172 Admiral
    I would like to see stock dividends taxed as ordinary income
  • BobDBobD Posts: 1,969 Officer
    rickc wrote: »
    I would like to see stock dividends taxed as ordinary income

    Sure and tax interest income the same way and eliminate the 401 deduction so you pay taxes on that income now. And eliminaste tax free munis. And why not all government assistance, EBTs, etc, taxed as well.
    Build your dream or someone will hire you to build theirs.
  • bswivbswiv Posts: 7,209 Admiral
    It's the concept of a "income" tax that needs to go............

    Money has no value till it's exchanged for something.......national sales tax. Those with a lot of money spend a lot of money and therefor pay a lot of taxes. Makes sense does it not????
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    Get rid of EIC and all deductions for children.

    They are a burden on society and if your are gonna have em, you should have to pay for them. There should be no prizes awarded because someone mastered the concept of pumping out offspring.
  • Team SabatageTeam Sabatage Posts: 12,856 AG
    I thought they were pumped in.
    Strap me in, tie me down and roll me a bone, I'm getting on an airplane and I'm flying home...
  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 27,631 AG
    bswiv wrote: »
    Makes sense does it not????

    **** man, don't try making sense on here!
    Vote for the other candidate
  • old thompsonold thompson Posts: 6,497 Officer
    bswiv wrote: »
    It's the concept of a "income" tax that needs to go............

    Money has no value till it's exchanged for something.......national sales tax. Those with a lot of money spend a lot of money and therefor pay a lot of taxes. Makes sense does it not????


    A national sales tax might be better for most than an income tax, but I am guessing that it would have to at least double the 9% that H. Cain campainged with even with major spending cuts.

    I sorta disagree with your statement that money has no value until it is exchanged. Interest is the price of money and banks used to pay people to save. Savings are a good thing. Suppose that an inovation comes along and nobody has any savings to invest or purchase new products....

    Of course a Federal Reserve Note ain't really money, but but the purpose of savings still applies.
    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

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  • esteroestero Posts: 2,041 Captain
    A national sales tax might be better for most than an income tax, but I am guessing that it would have to at least double the 9% that H. Cain campainged with even with major spending cuts.

    I sorta disagree with your statement that money has no value until it is exchanged. Interest is the price of money and banks used to pay people to save. Savings are a good thing. Suppose that an inovation comes along and nobody has any savings to invest or purchase new products....

    Of course a Federal Reserve Note ain't really money, but but the purpose of savings still applies.

    I think if everyone including all companies/businesses paid a national sales tax on everything purchased all other taxes could be done away with. The national sales tax would not need to be that much.

    Just because you’re  Offended  Doesn’t mean you right!

  • bswivbswiv Posts: 7,209 Admiral
    estero wrote: »
    I think if everyone including all companies/businesses paid a national sales tax on everything purchased all other taxes could be done away with. The national sales tax would not need to be that much.

    Businesses only collect taxes............

    Part of the beauty of a end user national sales tax is that the true level of taxation would be visible. Hiding it by having businesses in-bed it in the cost of their products accomplishes nothing.

    You do want the people to know the true level of taxes being taken from them don't you?
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,924 AG
    A national sales tax would have to be around 29% added to the retail price of goods. that is all goods including food to collect the same amount as we currently do under the fair tax paln which exempts the first $29,000 of purchases for a family of four. It is true a rich would buy more and pay more, to a degree. But a person earning $2 million a year does not spend that much more on a yearly basis than a person earning $1 million. There is an income where the highest wage earner pay no more taxes due to the fact they can only spend so much and usually save or invest the rest.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • frankfrank Posts: 13,292 AG
    Are earned income tax rebates going to end?

    I would like that.

    no
    in fact the gov is going to make them easier for married couples to try to erase the idea that a single parent is more favorable for this credit
    No political signature
  • esteroestero Posts: 2,041 Captain
    bswiv wrote: »
    Businesses only collect taxes............

    Part of the beauty of a end user national sales tax is that the true level of taxation would be visible. Hiding it by having businesses in-bed it in the cost of their products accomplishes nothing.

    You do want the people to know the true level of taxes being taken from them don't you?

    No one or business would be exempt from paying the sales tax. If the Walmart purchased $5 million dollars of items they would pay taxes on it from who ever they purchased it from. If it was from China they would owe our government the tax money. If you purchased a new car or used car then you would pay taxes on it.
    All other taxes would be done away with. No IRS as it is now, no exemptions, no tax filing. People with less income spend less and people with high incomes purchase more.
    Ant the sales tax would not have to be that much as some think.

    Just because you’re  Offended  Doesn’t mean you right!

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,924 AG
    estero wrote: »
    No one or business would be exempt from paying the sales tax. If the Walmart purchased $5 million dollars of items they would pay taxes on it from who ever they purchased it from. If it was from China they would owe our government the tax money. If you purchased a new car or used car then you would pay taxes on it.
    All other taxes would be done away with. No IRS as it is now, no exemptions, no tax filing. People with less income spend less and people with high incomes purchase more.
    Ant the sales tax would not have to be that much as some think.

    It has been calculated numerous times and it is always 25% to 30% tax added to the price. This assumes you keep all excise taxes currently in placed but replace the income and payroll taxes with a sales tax. Businesses only pay on goods used not good resold since the tax is paid by the end consumer.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • Team SabatageTeam Sabatage Posts: 12,856 AG
    Cadman, you are really smart and often spot on on this stuff, but not this time. Try 80%.

    I've studied this very thing and wrote a paper for my BS economics class on it. The figure that came out was 80%.
    I had to defend and when all was said and done, not one of the 6 Economics professors could deny that I was probably correct in my figures.

    Think about a product and how many times it is handled in it's life from the time it is an ore in the ground till it is a part of an automobile. Think of all the taxes paid on that object and all the objects and skilled labor that created it. Now think of all the taxes paid on that.

    80% of the final cost of about every product is tax.
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  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,924 AG
    Cadman, you are really smart and often spot on on this stuff, but not this time. Try 80%.

    I've studied this very thing and wrote a paper for my BS economics class on it. The figure that came out was 80%.
    I had to defend and when all was said and done, not one of the 6 Economics professors could deny that I was probably correct in my figures.

    Think about a product and how many times it is handled in it's life from the time it is an ore in the ground till it is a part of an automobile. Think of all the taxes paid on that object and all the objects and skilled labor that created it. Now think of all the taxes paid on that.

    80% of the final cost of about every product is tax.

    That is a little high, but that is not what I am talking about. If you are talking about the payroll and income taxes paid on labor it might hit 50% on food items and 80% on sin products. Due to excise taxes only on certain goods, it is not feasible to calculate the taxes across a broad spectrum. However, the federal government collected $2.9 trillion in total taxes in 2011 and consumer spending was $5.9 trillion. A little simple math shows about 50% of the cost of goods would be taxes. Your economics professor isn't very bright if he could not figure that out. Were you including all state and local taxes? Again that would not make a fair comparison since some of those taxes and fees have nothing to do with purchased goods.

    But this discussion is about a sales tax to replace the current income and payroll tax. To do that would require a 25% to 30% additional tax added to the retail product to generate the same income as our current income and payroll taxes generate.


    http://www.bls.gov/cex/2011/Standard/age.pdf

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • m9000m9000 Posts: 2,008 Captain
    Are earned income tax rebates going to end?

    I would like that.


    Yes!!! What exactly did the recipients do to "earn" those credits besides breathing and breeding?
  • Team SabatageTeam Sabatage Posts: 12,856 AG
    Yes, my studies included all state and local taxes, because tax is tax, whether it is in the form of payroll or vehicle registration fees or the 911 surcharge for a government service on your phone bill, they even tax your water and sewer bills, so a tax applied to a government service.

    Put it all together and find the total tax applied to an item, then you will see the 80%.

    The current tax on a persons income is about 33% add to that the payroll taxes paid by the employer, SSI matching, leave in the medicaid....

    Trust me, the total cost of the average product on the shelve is 80% from start to finish.
    Strap me in, tie me down and roll me a bone, I'm getting on an airplane and I'm flying home...
  • TriplecleanTripleclean Posts: 6,591 Officer
    I back Cadman when he does #s.

    TS is too RP for his #s ever to work, always something about gold and such, figure he will be onboard the cessna with William Devine.... GOLD that what I use!

    Thanks Frank for being "on topic" as the forum knows I have trouble with.
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  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,924 AG
    Yes, my studies included all state and local taxes, because tax is tax, whether it is in the form of payroll or vehicle registration fees or the 911 surcharge for a government service on your phone bill, they even tax your water and sewer bills, so a tax applied to a government service.

    Put it all together and find the total tax applied to an item, then you will see the 80%.

    The current tax on a persons income is about 33% add to that the payroll taxes paid by the employer, SSI matching, leave in the medicaid....

    Trust me, the total cost of the average product on the shelve is 80% from start to finish.

    That is because you are taking all taxes and contributing back to a purchased item whether it had anything to do with that item at all. Your 80% is flawed and I can demonstrate it quite easily using a 20oz bottle of soda that retails for $1.49 at my store. for 80% of that product to be taxes, that means that $1.19 is taxes and the product costs 30c. I only pay 90c for the product from Pepsi. Even if the product was 100% taxes at that point, it would mean that 50c of my expenses as a tax of some sort, which I do not, It calculates to about 5% of my gross sales, so I only add about 5c in taxes on that product. I can also assure you that the marketing cost of that product to reach me consumed a considerable portion of the wholesale costs, so it would be impossible for the entire 90c I pay to be taxes.

    You simply looked at consumer purchases and total taxable revenue and arrived at the 80% for the cost of an item. while it could be one way of looking at taxes, it isn't a fair way of looking at it. I could do the same analysis and tell you labor eats up 30% of a products final cost and marketing eats up 20% of a products costs. so far I am up to 130% of the cost of an item and I haven't gotten to the raw material costs.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • TightLine904TightLine904 Posts: 409 Officer
    At least a national sales tax would make the drug dealers and illegal immigrants have to pay taxes too...if you spend money your spending is taxed.
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    If any of you think the government will send 10's of thousands of IRS workers, accountants and tax attorneys to the unemployment lines looking for retraining in another line of work you are delusional....

    Look there is my old accountant... Blow the horn dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • rickcrickc Posts: 9,172 Admiral
    Sales tax plan is a rip off for the working man and another windfall for the billionaires

    Just look a the fiscal cliff. When we go over we will be well on our way back to a balanced federal budget. Like in the times of Clinton and before Bush. Isn't that what all you republicans want?
  • Team SabatageTeam Sabatage Posts: 12,856 AG
    Nope, nopt what I did, but mind readers seldom get things right.

    I took US Census Bureau earning statistics and camapred them against total government spending. The government spent 80% of what was earned by the people of the US.
    So, to balance the budget, not pay off any debt but service existing debt, it would require an 80% tax on every product sold.

    Cola is water, sugar, flavoring, shipping, packaging and marketing.

    Take a real product like an engine.
    Mine the ore, tax the mine and miner, smelt the ore, tax the smelter and smelter worker, ship the metal, have it made into smaller usable billets, after shipping and taxing each shipper and the fuel to do that, foundry the engine block, machine the engine block, seleve the engine block with a different grade of steel that has gone through all this and shipped at least twice more along with the block material, then machining, assembly of the engine, shipping again...
    We will leave out the UAW people who install it and the repair people/dealers who keep it going and the marketing involved.

    See it yet?

    Take all the earnings of all the workers in the US, subtract the spending of all governments in the US and you're left with 16%.
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  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,924 AG
    What?

    Why would you use census data to gather income? Use the IRS data, it is more accurate. Why would you use government expenses? taxes aren't expenses but income.

    Total earnings for 2011 was 12,949,905 million (including corporate). Total government expenses (federal, state, local) for 2011 was 6.1 trillion. That puts government spending at 47% of all income earned.

    Using census data for 2011 (6 trillion total household income for 2011)and 2011 total government expenses ($6.1 trillion), we have exceeded 100% of the cost of goods is taxes using your theory.

    I do understand what your point was now after a third reading of your post, However, you are only looking at part of the picture. To match current government spending with nothing but a sales tax would require a tax of about 110% on top of the cost of the product. That is not the same thing as saying 80% of the cost of every product currently made is taxes. You are making a jump to a conclusion not supported by the data given.

    Using the data you gave, it would take 80% of all household income(not spending) to cover government spending (you must have used pre-recession years). We do not spend 100% of what we earn. Consumer spending is currently about 95% of median household income.

    you really presented this to an economic class?

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • Team SabatageTeam Sabatage Posts: 12,856 AG
    "To match current government spending with nothing but a sales tax would require a tax of about 110% on top of the cost of the product."
    "Using the data you gave, it would take 80% of all household income(not spending) to cover government spending (you must have used pre-recession years)."

    Now you see it.
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  • esteroestero Posts: 2,041 Captain
    Most are figuring a national sales tax on the working people only. This is where the percentage is not right. If GM buys a part for a car then they pay a tax on it. The company that made the part pays a tax on materials to make it. The company that supplied the materials for the part pays a tax on getting the materials needed. The consumer that buys the part pays a tax on it. The consumer will pay for the part only once but GM will more then likely order thousands of the parts. I do not think that the tax would need to be as much as some think.

    Just because you’re  Offended  Doesn’t mean you right!

  • Team SabatageTeam Sabatage Posts: 12,856 AG
    You meant Toyota, right?
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  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,924 AG
    estero wrote: »
    Most are figuring a national sales tax on the working people only. This is where the percentage is not right. If GM buys a part for a car then they pay a tax on it. The company that made the part pays a tax on materials to make it. The company that supplied the materials for the part pays a tax on getting the materials needed. The consumer that buys the part pays a tax on it. The consumer will pay for the part only once but GM will more then likely order thousands of the parts. I do not think that the tax would need to be as much as some think.

    It would still end up as the same percentage tax on the end consumer. A part that costs $1.00 cost the consumer $1.30 with a 30% tax. If you made each level pay 10%. Then the manufacturers adds in the 10% to GM or wholesaler. GM or the wholesaler adds his 10% tax into the next level of pricing and the part costs $1.18 at retail and the consumer pays 10% and ends up spending $1.30 for the part. It was still a 30% tax on the end consumer. That is why everyone just concentrates on charging the tax on the end user and not each level.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 19,313 AG
    estero wrote: »
    Most are figuring a national sales tax on the working people only. This is where the percentage is not right. If GM buys a part for a car then they pay a tax on it. The company that made the part pays a tax on materials to make it. The company that supplied the materials for the part pays a tax on getting the materials needed. The consumer that buys the part pays a tax on it. The consumer will pay for the part only once but GM will more then likely order thousands of the parts. I do not think that the tax would need to be as much as some think.

    This is a VAT not a natiional sales tax. Our tax system must not be punitive to manufacturing...the lifeblood of a nation.
  • esteroestero Posts: 2,041 Captain
    cadman wrote: »
    It would still end up as the same percentage tax on the end consumer. A part that costs $1.00 cost the consumer $1.30 with a 30% tax. If you made each level pay 10%. Then the manufacturers adds in the 10% to GM or wholesaler. GM or the wholesaler adds his 10% tax into the next level of pricing and the part costs $1.18 at retail and the consumer pays 10% and ends up spending $1.30 for the part. It was still a 30% tax on the end consumer. That is why everyone just concentrates on charging the tax on the end user and not each level.

    The consumer pays only 10% tax according to your figures. What you are doing is leaving out all the other taxes paid on that part. If you figure that way then the consumer pays all the costs of of any business thay use and the company pays nothing but makes all the profit.
    If materials cost $.50 and company B buys the materials from company A and pays 10% tax. $.50 + 10% = $.55.
    Company C makes the part and pays a 10% tax on $.55 tha makes the part $.605.
    The consumer buys the part for $.60 and pays a 10% tax making the part $.6655.
    The government would collect $.05, .055, .0605 for a total of $.1655 in taxes.

    What I am trying to say is that you have no real idea how much tax or regulatory fees a consumer pays on items today. Consumers could pay 80% taxes on items today.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/07/legal-loophole-allows-gm-to-avoid-paying-federal-taxes-still/

    Just because you’re  Offended  Doesn’t mean you right!

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