media silent about this movie theater shooting

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  • T Howard wrote: »
    We have over 1 million Cps out there and it does not seem to be a big issue.

    We have 55 million elementary school children too.
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  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    I did not say that it would. However a realistic training program that consists of something beyon the time it takes to watch a feature film, proficiency and realistic testing all providing an opportunity to select out the incompetent, which is not done now, would certainly help.



    :grin History has proven no such thing.

    Someone not doing something (which they have) is no measure of their being anything else. If in fact that were true , it could be claimed that they are less responsible than those non-permitted owners since there is a greater of a "law abiding", gun owning population.

    There is no evedence to suggest that concealed weapons permit holders are more responsible, or law abiding than anyone without one, other than their own belief that they are. And as I said, I've heard many strange beliefs at those courses.
    Im not saying it wouldnt help, but if the system aint broke then theres no need to fix it.

    You have to prove yourself to become something. CCW holders have proven through their track record over time that they are responsible. If you really dont think thats any evidence then I dont know what else you want from them
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  • capt bill wrote: »
    It strengthens my point of responsibility

    It strengthens the argument that issuance of a concealed weaposn permit is not a reflection of responsibility, "law abidingness" and that the rate of crime is higher for permit holders is higher based upon population than non permit holders.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

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  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    We have 55 million elementary school children too.

    and they have little responsibilities as kids therefore less opportunity to break the law. your point?
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  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    It strengthens the argument that issuance of a concealed weaposn permit is not a reflection of responsibility, "law abidingness" and that the rate of crime is higher for permit holders is higher based upon population than non permit holders.

    overall crime rate for permit holders is .3% ....the state has a much higher rate than that. You are wrong
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  • capt bill wrote: »
    Im not saying it wouldnt help, but if the system aint broke then theres no need to fix it.

    You have to prove yourself to become something. CCW holders have proven through their track record over time that they are responsible. If you really dont think thats any evidence then I dont know what else you want from them

    I think it is. I do not think a fraction of the people issued concealed permits have the training, competence or presence of mind to engage in a gunfight in the street. In fact anyone who points to their card as proof they are, should lose it.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • capt bill wrote: »
    and they have little responsibilities as kids therefore less opportunity to break the law. your point?

    My point is clear without articulating it.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • capt bill wrote: »
    overall crime rate for permit holders is .3% ....the state has a much higher rate than that. You are wrong

    :grin No.... I am using your absurd standard.

    As there are far more people in the state who have not committed any crime, the crime rate for those fewer with permits is necessarily higher.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    I think it is. I do not think a fraction of the people issued concealed permits have the training, competence or presence of mind to engage in a gunfight in the street. In fact anyone who points to their card as proof they are, should lose it.

    and you are probably right but based on the evidence at hand, the system is fine.. for now. There is also a bunch of cops running around without the right mindset as well, IMO. I also dont think the constitution supports any of the permit system as I always like to cite the "shall not be infringed" clause of the 2A

    to your elementary school kids point, it is not a clear comparison: you are comparing full grown adults to young kids with no responsibilities or access to any
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  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    :grin No.... I am using your absurd standard.

    As there are far more people in the state who have not committed any crime, the crime rate for those fewer with permits is necessarily higher.

    so then how do you measure the adequacy of the permit system if you do not look at the crime rate? After all, thats why the requirement of a permit is in place...
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  • SWFL_F1sh0nSWFL_F1sh0n Posts: 17,248 Officer
    capt bill wrote: »
    the cop wasnt on duty. My point is that allowing people to be armed is a good deterrent to crime when the police cant respond fast enough. This was a prime example

    So when a cop is off duty they somehow are reduced to a 18 year old kid with a CCW?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • By incidents and their frequency.

    We can look at the 5 fold increase of Stand Your Ground criminal cases involving shooting and deaths. This is a growing area of law practice. The presence of a firearm and the belief of a permit holder's ability to escalate beyond appropriate use of force, all based on that inadequate training and responsibility, is probably one of the most contentious prosecutions we face today, actually in some cases providing "bad guys" with a defense.

    We will see how this plays out in the Zimmerman trial later in the year.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • capt bill wrote: »

    ...you are comparing full grown adults to young kids with no responsibilities or access to any

    No, I am not at all.

    And it was in response to Mr. Howard.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • T HowardT Howard Posts: 1,658 Captain
    We have 55 million elementary school children too.

    No, the US has 55.5 million K-12.
  • T Howard wrote: »
    No, the US has 55.5 million K-12.

    Even better.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    So when a cop is off duty they somehow are reduced to a 18 year old kid with a CCW?

    you need to be 21 to have a ccw. firearms clearly are not your area of expertise
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  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    By incidents and their frequency.

    We can look at the 5 fold increase of Stand Your Ground criminal cases involving shooting and deaths. This is a growing area of law practice. The presence of a firearm and the belief of a permit holder's ability to escalate beyond appropriate use of force, all based on that inadequate training and responsibility, is probably one of the most contentious prosecutions we face today, actually in some cases providing "bad guys" with a defense.

    We will see how this plays out in the Zimmerman trial later in the year.

    and you dont need to have a permit to have the stand your ground law apply. Incidents with CCW permit holders speaks for itself. 165 cases since 1987...
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  • capt bill wrote: »
    and you dont need to have a permit to have the stand your ground law apply.

    These three did:

    George Zimmerman.

    Micheal Dunn.

    Michael Jock.

    Is it "responsible" or " law abiding" or worth taking someone's life over your misinterpretation of the law by playing at policeman (Zimmerman) , or being annoyed by loud music (Dunn) or a pizza((Jock), because the state gave you the right to do so, without knowledge , experience or training by virtue of 4 hours, $80 and a piece of plastic with your picture on it?

    These are failures; indefensible, plain and very current demonstrating that:
    capt bill wrote: »
    Mind you there are a bunch of people with CCW have more training than police ...
    ...is nonsense.

    These are real life incidences and not rates.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • rysherrysher Posts: 372 Deckhand
    capt bill wrote: »
    and if you look at the figures of those with a CCW who break a law using a firearm versus someone who breaks a law using a car you will see how responsible those folks are who have their CCW. Ive said it before, I wouldnt mind making people go through more training to obtain the permit but the status quo says otherwise. But why change something that works?
    i'm not talking about ccw people breaking the law, i'm talking about if i feel safe or if i would entrust my fmaily's safety on ccw holders. and the answer is NOT. however, i would entrust my safety and that of my fmaily on USPSA and IDPA shooters.
    capt bill wrote: »
    CCW holders have proven through their track record over time that they are responsible.
    i'm not talking bout being responsible, that is the duty of every gun owner not just CCW holders.
  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    These three did:

    George Zimmerman.

    Micheal Dunn.

    Michael Jock.

    Is it "responsible" or " law abiding" or worth taking someone's life over your misinterpretation of the law by playing at policeman (Zimmerman) , or being annoyed by loud music (Dunn) or a pizza((Jock), because the state gave you the right to do so, without knowledge , experience or training by virtue of 4 hours, $80 and a piece of plastic with your picture on it?

    These are failures; indefensible, plain and very current demonstrating that:


    ...is nonsense.

    These are real life incidences and not rates.

    And Im not defending them saying they are right because those are all situations I would have avoided as they should have as well. But you cant take away someone's inalienable right to defend themselves. Those situations do not apply to the castle doctrine IMO but the law is a good law, it just needs proper interpretation from federal judges and perhaps a more fine tuned definition. Not a total revocation of it.

    Fortunately there are more scenarios where the CCW came into play and legitimately saved someone's life...but the media doesnt cover positive stories that are against their agenda

    and it is certainly not nonsense. Police academy training is anywhere from 3-9 months...that doesnt seem so adequate for a group of people held in such high regard in the public's eyes to protect the citizens. Not to mention the firearms qualifications are a total joke.
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  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    rysher wrote: »
    i'm not talking about ccw people breaking the law, i'm talking about if i feel safe or if i would entrust my fmaily's safety on ccw holders. and the answer is NOT. however, i would entrust my safety and that of my fmaily on USPSA and IDPA shooters.

    i'm not talking bout being responsible, that is the duty of every gun owner not just CCW holders.

    agreed
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  • capt bill wrote: »
    And Im not defending them saying they are right because those are all situations I would have avoided as they should have as well. But you cant take away someone's inalienable right to defend themselves.

    NO ONE, not even police have an inalienable right to take someone's life.

    That is the first thing a law enforcement officer learns. None of those CCW permit holders was defending anything but their own egos, under color of what they misunderstood was state law.

    These poor victims demand, if they could find any voice, improved screening, education and training.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • SWFL_F1sh0nSWFL_F1sh0n Posts: 17,248 Officer
    capt bill wrote: »
    you need to be 21 to have a ccw. firearms clearly are not your area of expertise

    Or I'm older than 21. Regardless you avoided my point.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 2,879 Moderator
    These three did:

    George Zimmerman.

    Micheal Dunn.

    Michael Jock.

    Is it "responsible" or " law abiding" or worth taking someone's life over your misinterpretation of the law by playing at policeman (Zimmerman) , or being annoyed by loud music (Dunn) or a pizza((Jock), because the state gave you the right to do so, without knowledge , experience or training by virtue of 4 hours, $80 and a piece of plastic with your picture on it?

    These are failures; indefensible, plain and very current demonstrating that:


    ...is nonsense.

    These are real life incidences and not rates.



    I don't believe Zimmerman can claim SYG since he pursued Martin unless he had some right to do so. SYG is a good law but I am interested in its application in situations where pursuit is justified (i.e. someones steals my wallet at gun point and I can't get to my weapon until after they turn to leave).
  • We shall see.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • TightLine904TightLine904 Posts: 409 Officer
    NO ONE, not even police have an inalienable right to take someone's life.

    That is the first thing a law enforcement officer learns. None of those CCW permit holders was defending anything but their own egos, under color of what they misunderstood was state law.

    These poor victims demand, if they could find any voice, improved screening, education and training.
    That depends on the situation....if I think you mean me bodily harm or death,I have a GOD given right to put one between your eyes.I dont need a permit or law to defend myself.
  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    NO ONE, not even police have an inalienable right to take someone's life.

    That is the first thing a law enforcement officer learns. None of those CCW permit holders was defending anything but their own egos, under color of what they misunderstood was state law.

    These poor victims demand, if they could find any voice, improved screening, education and training.
    did I say take someone's life? No. I said defend themselves. If some crazed man is coming after you to kill you then you are left with no other option...and yes there are times that is the only option
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  • capt billcapt bill Posts: 4,035 Officer
    Or I'm older than 21. Regardless you avoided my point.

    nice try with another cover up but you never had a point to begin with...or are you going to try and tell me a clip is the same thing as a magazine again?
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  • capt bill wrote: »
    some crazed man is coming after you to kill you then you are left with no other option...and yes there are times that is the only option

    Only in your paranoid imagination, which is the commonality of those who seek concealed permits. Then, as I said the only thing remaining is the opportunity to play at cop, (Zimmerman) vigilante, (Dunn) and distraught diner (Jock).

    There are many indicators of overly imaginative and much too zealous enthusiasts who lack the socialization, maturity and presence of mind to walk the streets with handguns at the ready seeking to fulfill that fantasy These permit courses attract them like ants to a picnic. This should be the entry point to a psychological assessment to determine their fitness for such a weighty responsibility, rather than a state sanctioned means to enable their madness.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • esteroestero Posts: 2,041 Captain
    I don't think most people that have a CCP are out after someone to shoot.

    So far we really don't know the truth about Zimmerman but only what you hear on TV. The media always seems to try and make the news and not just reporting it.

    Just because you’re  Offended  Doesn’t mean you right!

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