why did the Government feel the need to kill the Children of Waco?

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Replies

  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    [h=1]Ex-FBI Negotiator Blames ATF, FBI Rescue Team For Waco Disaster[/h] MARCY GORDON , Associated Press AP News Archive Nov. 1, 1995 5:43 PM ET
    WASHINGTON (AP) _ Blaming his former colleagues and another law enforcement agency for the disaster, a former FBI negotiator told senators Wednesday that the 1993 Waco siege was ``almost beyond repair'' when the bureau got involved.
    ``The American people have the right to expect better,'' said Clint Van Zandt, who was on the FBI team that negotiated with members of the Branch Davidian cult during the 51-day standoff in Texas.
    For its part, the FBI acknowledged it made mistakes in the siege and explained the changes it has made since then as the Senate Judiciary Committee completed two days of Waco hearings.
    FBI Director Louis J. Freeh, meanwhile, assured a House subcommittee chairman that the bureau would never again use tactics that lack a ``legitimate basis.''
    Both the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms have been assailed in recent weeks for their conduct in the Waco incident and the 1992 deadly standoff against white separatist Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. The latest Senate inquiry followed 10 days of politically charged hearings on Waco in the House over the summer and a recently concluded investigation of Ruby Ridge by a Senate Judiciary subcommittee.
    ``Tactics that have no legitimate basis as either part of a sound negotiation strategy or part of a well-planned tactical solution are not going to be part of this FBI,'' Freeh wrote Rep. Bill McCollum, R-Fla., chairman of the House Judiciary subcommittee on crime.
    Cult leader David Koresh and 80 followers died as their compound burned on April 19, 1993, after FBI agents used a tank to punch holes in the building and insert tear gas.
    The standoff had begun Feb. 28 after four ATF agents were killed and more than a dozen others wounded when they tried to serve a search warrant as part of a firearms investigation. Six Branch Davidians also died in the shootout.
    The ATF agents ``should never have been ordered into such a confrontation,'' said Van Zandt, who retired from the FBI in the last year. The FBI, which took over after the ATF raid, entered a situation that was ``almost beyond repair,'' he asserted.
    Van Zandt said the FBI's hostage rescue team, which used intimidating tactics such as blasting music and loud noise over loudspeakers and cutting off electricity to the compound, frustrated the negotiators working to gain the Davidians' trust. One tape used was the wrenching sound of rabbits being slaughtered.
    In his letter to McCollum, Freeh cited the playing of chants or other types of tapes over loudspeakers as examples of practices the FBI was dropping.
    ``We lost any chance of trust we had because of the tactical options that were being executed throughout this time,'' Van Zandt said.
    Van Zandt's view got support from William Esposito, assistant director of the FBI's criminal investigation division, who told the senators, ``There certainly was a disconnect between the negotiations and the tactical people.''
    Judiciary Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, concurred, saying: ``The hostage rescue team worked at cross-purposes with the negotiating team.''
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  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 27,439 AG
    coldair wrote: »
    my friends had saved my life in 1979 when I almost entered a boob trapped apartment belonging to a drug dealer in Euless Texas. there was a sawed off 12 gage double barrel pointed at the door and rigged with fishing line to go off if I opened the door. I had fixed his ac 2 days before and he stopped to bull crap about guns and to thank me when he noticed scotch tape on the door jam. he knocked and announced his id, no answer so him and his partner poked around and saw the booby trap. they went in the back door and disarmed the trap, found some pot and other guns, called the local pd and turned it over to them after they took the weapons. i went home without a shotgun wound. we became close friends after that

    Sure you did. I think you make crap up and nothing is based on real events.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    I bet coldie has a lot of ATF "friends". They raid him weekly!


    my friends are all p a t r i o t s
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  • MACDMACD Lee CountyPosts: 4,849 Captain
    coldair wrote: »
    one of the first things that comes to mind is how you always crap in someone thread when they lose a beloved dog, do you really think you are winning hearts when you do that?

    OK .....I've quit doing that for a long time on this forum since I've decided to take Christianity a little more seriously in my life.

    Anything else you would like to blame on me.? I have big shoulders.
  • SWFL_F1sh0nSWFL_F1sh0n Posts: 17,248 Officer
    coldair wrote: »
    my friends are all p a t r i o t s

    Are these the same patriots that implemented the gun walking fiasco?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    cadman wrote: »
    Sure you did. I think you make crap up and nothing is based on real events.

    not everybody has a boring life
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  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    Are these the same patriots that implemented the gun walking fiasco?

    are you referring to what many of you think Obama had no knowledge of?

    of course my friends would not have anything to do with it
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  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    MACD wrote: »
    OK .....I've quit doing that for a long time on this forum since I've decided to take Christianity a little more seriously in my life.

    Anything else you would like to blame on me.? I have big shoulders.

    if memory serves me it was less then 2 months ago that you apologized to another forum member for doing that, it was right around the time my Bailey was dying from bone cancer
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  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 27,439 AG
    If you want to question whether or not they should have served the search warrant, then most agree it was a bad move to serve the warrant when ATF was informed that Koresh knew they were coming and was prepared with weapons.

    They most likely should not have served the original warrant, since they lost tactical advantage. But that did not kill all the members. There was no way the ATF or FBI could leave after agents were killed. there was no way Koresh was going to surrender since he believed it was the end of days for him and his group.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • SWFL_F1sh0nSWFL_F1sh0n Posts: 17,248 Officer
    coldair wrote: »
    are you referring to what many of you think Obama had no knowledge of?

    of course my friends would not have anything to do with it

    You and 3clean are so full of it your eyes are brown. I'm done with you on this one, you're dismissed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 27,439 AG
    coldair wrote: »
    not everybody has a boring life

    Most AC repair guys do,. I know a bunch of them. You have been in more shootouts than every cop I know and I know quite a few of them. You match Rambo for excitement according to your stories. Hollywood should make a movie about your exciting life as an AC repair guy. Maybe Vin Diesel could play the lead (I doubt you will get the joke here).

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    why did they keep the local PD off of the scene? why did Koresh call the local PD for help? why did they use tanks against American citizens? why did they keep the fire department out of the compound? why did they destroy the evidence and how did thy mange to lose so much critical pieces of the evidence? is the FBI and ATF that incompent?

    why did the first agent go up the ladder and draw a pistol and shoot himself in the leg as he went up when he had a HK MP5K in a chest rig already to go?
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  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 27,439 AG
    coldair wrote: »
    why did they keep the local PD off of the scene? why did Koresh call the local PD for help? why did they use tanks against American citizens? why did they keep the fire department out of the compound? why did they destroy the evidence and how did thy mange to lose so much critical pieces of the evidence? is the FBI and ATF that incompent?

    why did the first agent go up the ladder and draw a pistol and shoot himself in the leg as he went up when he had a HK MP5K in a chest rig already to go?

    You are going to believe the conspiracies because that is you. Logical sane people don't fall for those kind of crazy things. I am not going to try and explain the real events to a conspiracy nut when it won't matter anyways.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    cadman wrote: »
    Most AC repair guys do,. I know a bunch of them. You have been in more shootouts than every cop I know and I know quite a few of them. You match Rambo for excitement according to your stories. Hollywood should make a movie about your exciting life as an AC repair guy. Maybe Vin Diesel could play the lead (I doubt you will get the joke here).

    next time I am up your way I will bring some medical records, court records, etc etc and we can go to the great outdoors and have a drink or two so you can check some things out, I will even let you touch my scars
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  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    sane logical people don't always trust the law and think they are infallible
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  • MACDMACD Lee CountyPosts: 4,849 Captain
    coldair wrote: »
    if memory serves me it was less then 2 months ago that you apologized to another forum member for doing that, it was right around the time my Bailey was dying from bone cancer


    A Public apologizing is a good thing .......but we may need the administration of this fourm to pinpoint an exact time period.

    Is there anything else you would like to blame on me to deflect from your opening post.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 27,439 AG
    coldair wrote: »
    next time I am up your way I will bring some medical records, court records, etc etc and we can go to the great outdoors and have a drink or two so you can check some things out, I will even let you touch my scars

    Just IM me your real name and city. You aren't the only one with friends. Not interested in touching anything, not my thing. Maybe you did get the Vin Diesel reference.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • TriplecleanTripleclean Posts: 6,591 Officer
    Not to cheapen the Waco fisaco,

    I like movies because the outcomes are controlled.

    If John Wayne was at any level of LE in the whole LE chain of involvement from months before when they went after him because of some guns ..... The thing would have ended right there, some how these Korash Church People keep asking for the manager in LE and it ended up with Janet Reno gassing them and burning them up. I think she causes cancer.
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    [video=youtube_share;pdPtDJ02Jn0]

    part of a documentary film that is very good and damning at the same time
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  • MACDMACD Lee CountyPosts: 4,849 Captain
    coldair wrote: »
    sane logical people don't always trust the law and think they are infallible

    Thats what Koresh, Charlie Manson, Jim Jones and Spring Hill Baptist Church believes in.

    I'm more of a Heavanly Kingdom of Christiaity on earth....... You know, the Kingdom in the "Lords prayer".
  • StevododStevodod Posts: 44 Greenhorn
    Wow, a guy poses a question on here concerning the murder of innocent civilians in Waco, TX (we all watched it in real time in absolute HORROR) and y'all jump all over HIS credibility and character? Wow, how about an examination of the facts? The first thing most of you dogs do is name-call, discredit, topic shift, and personally insult others, without taking time to investigate the facts. FACT: David Koresh was a whacked-out dude with bigger issues than most! FACT- he, and everyone living in the Branch-Davidian compound were killed by the ATF for.......what........c-mon, justify it with facts of why it was necessary to kill these people and don't take pop-shots at my mom!
  • TriplecleanTripleclean Posts: 6,591 Officer
    You and 3clean are so full of it your eyes are brown. I'm done with you on this one, you're dismissed.

    Keep my name out of your mouth.

    I'm just talking about movies and real life, making nice and you are doing brown eye stuff.

    After ten years of GWOT taking down curches and relgous leaders is old news.

    Anyone watch Lara Logan's sweet peice on 60 Minutes about the dutch guy and alwaki??
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
  • TriplecleanTripleclean Posts: 6,591 Officer
    This, and do it at teds biogas station from bill and ted.
    coldair wrote: »
    next time I am up your way I will bring some medical records, court records, etc etc and we can go to the great outdoors and have a drink or two so you can check some things out, I will even let you touch my scars
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
  • coldaircoldair Posts: 11,498 Officer
    is that Pete's friends? i thought that was freedom fuel?
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  • TriplecleanTripleclean Posts: 6,591 Officer
    Pete, thats the guy. Old wooden car pete.
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
  • MACDMACD Lee CountyPosts: 4,849 Captain
    Stevodod wrote: »
    Wow, a guy poses a question on here concerning the murder of innocent civilians in Waco, TX !

    Koresh had plenty of time to let go of his cultist hostages , he chose not to . Because of his arrogace as a cultest leader he allowed his innocent brainwashed followers to die in behalf of his enormous
    ego playing god.

    Serial killers use a simaler MO.
  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 19,435 AG
    MACD wrote: »
    Koresh had plenty of time to let go of his cultist hostages , he chose not to . Because of his arrogace as a cultest leader he allowed his innocent brainwashed followers to die in behalf of his enormous
    ego playing god.

    Serial killers use a simaler MO.

    Really?? The government had no choice? They had to proceed?
  • StevododStevodod Posts: 44 Greenhorn
    MACD wrote: »
    Koresh had plenty of time to let go of his cultist hostages , he chose not to . Because of his arrogace as a cultest leader he allowed his innocent brainwashed followers to die in behalf of his enormous
    ego playing god.

    Serial killers use a simaler MO.

    MACD, again- please reply with what CRIME was being committed at the complex that warranted killing everyone there...????
  • MACDMACD Lee CountyPosts: 4,849 Captain
    Really?? The government had no choice? They had to proceed?

    There comes a time when our Government had to decide of the safty of the innocent.......Why didn't Koresh feel the same compassion of his hostages?

    Koresh is nothing more than a serial killer. His massive ego caused the death of his cult innocent beleivers that thought he was jesus.

    Lets put blame where it belongs.
  • MACDMACD Lee CountyPosts: 4,849 Captain
    Stevodod wrote: »
    MACD, again- please reply with what CRIME was being committed at the complex that warranted killing everyone there...????

    Read Gary's #2 post to give you a little more incite..............
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