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A Point on the Home Page article about Longline Permits

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  • broadbill-probroadbill-pro Member Posts: 68 Deckhand
    Ron, 91% of swordfish is not imported but I am sure you would like to see that. Continue to pick on the weakest link while the Japanese, Spanish, Koreans and dozens of other Nations fill their holds with your sacred marlin. There is no honor is killing off the smallest fish, didn't sport tournaments teach you that?

    Gary, Dream on.... the harpoon fishery couldn't fill the demand on Cape Cod for one weekend in the summer.
  • Capt EasyCapt Easy Senior Member St Pete FLPosts: 203 Officer
    Long Gone wrote: »
    60 boat owners who dump dead marlin and juvenille swordfish in pursuit of cash represent all Americans?
    Its tough to reply to that politely. Lets just say its not true.
    The market can, and hopefully will soon, be supplied by with less destructive gear with far less by-catch.
    I doubt any American supports, or would support, pelagic longline fishing intentionally.

    The Swordfish fishery is considered robust despite the discards of juveniles. So why not let the PLL's sell them. End of swordfish discards. For every Marlin caught there are thousands of Swordfish dinners produced so why not sell them also? Marlin dinners instead of Marlin discards.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG

    Gary, Dream on.... the harpoon fishery couldn't fill the demand on Cape Cod for one weekend in the summer.

    Yeah I'm sure the tourists would take to the streets in protest if it didn't appear on their menus. Oh but that doesn't happen because most of it is imported.

    But you are right. Its all about greed, Vinney.

    Swordfish is a luxury. Decreasing the supply increases the market value. Its an economics thing.

    You want a sustainable swordfishery? Use traditional methods that don't imperil it.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • broadbill-probroadbill-pro Member Posts: 68 Deckhand
    The sad fact is that if you were able to remove swordfish from those menus it would only encourage you to move on to the next anti-commercial crusade, no different than PEW or that nut case on the Sea Shepard. There is no appeasing your appetite for serving righteousness as long as you don't have to swallow any. Guys like you and Ron need to learn that your crusade does not matter in the big picture, in the time it takes to write this post a thousand sharks and marlin are being packed in the holds of foreign vessels, fish that were swimming in the US EEZ yesterday. Making the American LL'er extinct may serve you well at the next IGFA fundraiser, but it does f#ckall to solve the problem.
  • Capt EasyCapt Easy Senior Member St Pete FLPosts: 203 Officer


    You want a sustainable swordfishery? Use traditional methods that don't imperil it.

    Riiiiiiiight and to further save our world bring it to market on a donkey.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    The sad fact is that if you were able to remove swordfish from those menus it would only encourage you to move on to the next anti-commercial crusade, .

    If I didn't eat a commercially caught fish again, I would not be unhappy.

    no different than PEW or that nut case on the Sea Shepard. .

    With arguments like that, Admiral Watson isn't alone in the room.
    There is no appeasing your appetite for serving righteousness as long as you don't have to swallow any. .

    :rotflmaoI'm not the one begging to reopen a closed fishery and by inventing a demand for fish that no one really demands. In fact I'm not asking for anything at all, other than you to throw spears at them like any sailor worth his salt would.
    Guys like you and Ron need to learn that your crusade does not matter in the big picture, in the time it takes to write this post a thousand sharks and marlin are being packed in the holds of foreign vessels, fish that were swimming in the US EEZ yesterday. .

    I can't do much about them from doing that, but I can sure as hell stop you from helping them at it.
    Making the American LL'er extinct may serve you well at the next IGFA fundraiser, but it does f#ckall to solve the problem.

    The only problem resides in your fertile imagination and bank account.

    I am not an IGFA member and do not subscribe to the need to demonstrate my heroism by killing the biggest thing I can find with the smallest gun. I wonder if harpoons are included in the all tackle category.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Long GoneLong Gone Member FloridaPosts: 82 Deckhand
    Sure, we should allow longliners to sell marlin and juvenille swordfish...... That would solve everything. Maybe turtles too. Why waste them?
    How about longline gear that causes such pelagic waste be banned?
    America and the world would likely find some way to survive without miles and miles of longline gear draped all over the ocean for the personal profit of 60 individuals (and those they fund).
  • broadbill-probroadbill-pro Member Posts: 68 Deckhand
    Personally I could not care less if the EFP takes place or if the closed area is modified. Sure you don't believe me, so ask your buddy Ron he will confirm. I have a hard-on for hypocrits who sit behind a keyboard with zero hands-on experience and dictate how things should be. Let me inform you what pushing American longliners out of the US fishery did, for every fish you believe you saved 6 others died. During the 1990's with increasing US regulations and a demand for American fishing techonology over-seas about 15 Captains emigrated and took with us the most efficient longline gear in the world. My yearly harvest of 250k pounds became 1.5m in the South Atlantic and marlin as well as sharks became a target species. Pat yourself on the back, you had a hand in not only the greatest slaughter of pelagics the world has seen, but also provided the knowledge to continue successful fishing in those Nations forever.

    When I tell you that a managed domestic longline fishery should be the least of your fears, believe what I say.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    I have a hard-on for hypocrits .

    :hairraiser

    Do you have a perscription for that? I would not advise wasting it on me at your age.:nono
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Capt EasyCapt Easy Senior Member St Pete FLPosts: 203 Officer
    :hairraiser

    Do you have a perscription for that? I would not advise wasting it on me at your age.:nono


    Another compelling argument from and intellectual giant. :rotflmao
  • Ron@.38 Special[email protected] Special Senior Member Posts: 6,921 Admiral
    BP,

    Now that you are not on the AP, you disparage me? ****!

    You just wish every recreational angler was as reasonable about PLL gear as I am.

    you want proof??????? Go read the record from yesterdays shark hearing and how I stood up for the PLL's especially the North Carolina gusy who will be put out of business over the Shark amendment issue!

    Want more proof, call Terry and Blue water and ask her what she thinks of me an how I deal with issues at HMS. Or for that matter, ask Rich, or for more close information, remember what you have heard me say over the years.

    That being said, I am against any BS research in the closed zone especially if it can be done in the open zones. i also am against what I consider to be half **** research by the guy who seems to think the FEC closed zone is his personal laboratory for fishing whenever he wants.

    And also remember nearly every entity , TBF, CCA, IGFA and anyone else who matters did not oppose the past research per say, they opposed the lack of scientific data to be gained by counting fish!

    We will watch how Day Boat describes their research and make decisions based on if it is sound science, if it has to be done in the closed zone, and then decide how to comment. The procedure to permit it without peer review of AP comments is the problem here.

    I can tell you that my opinion is that Day Boats does not fully understand what they are trying to do. Scott has made it clear to everyone that he opposes "static" closures and thinks they should be easily adjusted based on current information, like current water quality, bait, water temp, interactions, etc. His plan is to do changes in real time.

    Think about hat BP. Do you really think you can deal with HMS in real time??? Heck it would take 1.5 to 3 years to change lines of a closed zone and Scott wants to be able to do it with a Sat temp map. He has a bit of awakening coming at the AP level.

    But, I think Scott is a highly respectable dealer that is smarter than you BP, Bluewater and all the PLL's warapped up into one box! He thinks outside of the box. That is a comliment but do not mistake it for my support of any planned PLL research. In fact, I told him I could possibly support some research with a certain scientist that I recommended. I do not like Dave's approach and I think other researchers could provide a cleaner look at things. I think Dave has spent too much time having his research paid for by the PLL industry .

    I would like to see how others would research this fishery and get another opinion to add to Dave's work. Dave is respected, but too aligned with where his bread is buttered if you ask me and my opinion is he looks at the FEC closed zone as his.
  • Ron@.38 Special[email protected] Special Senior Member Posts: 6,921 Admiral
    BP, another point, don't waste your time worrying about this research, Amendment 5 and 7 will have significant impact on the PLL fleet, and who knows what amendment 8 will do.

    (5 Shark measures, 7 bluefin tuna, 8 swordfish General Category permits)
  • Long GoneLong Gone Member FloridaPosts: 82 Deckhand
    Well said Ron. I agree.
  • ProfessorOProfessorO Senior Member HollywoodPosts: 911 Officer
    How can folks with blood on their hands slander a very good scientist just on speculation and misinformation?? It is too easy these days to spread rumors about good people; it is too bad that etiquette has not kept up with technology. If you don't fish, buy/order fish, or sell products to people to kill fish, then you don't have any blood on your hands and you should have a place to stand on to throw your rocks; otherwise your hypocritical speculations are just that. I've spent quite a few years arguing with BP on this internet over at swordfish central, but after reading all of his well-written informative responses, I do agree with most of what he has to say. So please tell me who the biggest sinner is, Someone who is working a legal job, that is one of the hardest and most dangerous in the world, that allows my 91 yr old mom to buy high-quality fish to maintain her good health or someone that intentionally fishes for a specie for just fun and the thrill of seeing the fish jumping to survive?? Fish mortality is on the order of 10% or less in the most ideal situations and is >90% in the worst cases. This website alone is full of thousands of pictures with people handling fish that are out of the water; a lot of those fish will die, probably on the order of 50% or more, so that someone can have some bragging rights and a new facebook picture. This holier than thou attitude of many recreational fisherman is very misplaced, they need to really think about their actions in the big picture. There is a growing body of scientific evidence, see Cooke and Cowx, Biological Conservation Volume 128, Issue 1, February 2006, Pages 93–108 for example, that recreational fishing can be as destructive as commercial fishing because of the large number of anglers and their very poor fish handling skills. Statewide in FL, the number of recreational fisherman for mahi mahi has increased by over a factor of ten in the last few decades while the commercial pressure has remained relatively constant, looks what's happened to that fishery here in S FL. If you want to keep throwing rocks in the name of conservation, throw a few at yourselves to be fair. cheers, O
    The goal of scientists is to maximize what we know of the real world by using the mathematical world to optimize the information from the observed world.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    :Spittingcoffee

    "Blood on your hands" ? "Sin"? "Guilt"?

    And you teach?

    Its a fish. Their is no morality or ethics involved with fisheries management, just the impact certain methods have on those fisheries and animals without.

    That is the only thing we are talking about, despite these emotional excursions which always retreated to in defense of com,medical fishing.

    It is unnecessary a diversion and a lie and has no place on a sportfishing conservation forum.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ProfessorOProfessorO Senior Member HollywoodPosts: 911 Officer
    :Spittingcoffee

    "Blood on your hands" ? "Sin"? "Guilt"?

    And you teach?

    Its a fish. Their is no morality or ethics involved with fisheries management, just the impact certain methods have on those fisheries and animals without.

    That is the only thing we are talking about, despite these emotional excursions which always retreated to in defense of com,medical fishing.

    It is unnecessary a diversion and a lie and has no place on a sportfishing conservation forum.

    Gary, you know what does not belong in a sport fishing conservation forum, taking cheap shots at people. First you slander Dr. Kerstteter and now you are slandering me; please tell me where I am lying?? Instead of slandering folks here, do something more constructive, and answer my ethical question. cheers, O
    The goal of scientists is to maximize what we know of the real world by using the mathematical world to optimize the information from the observed world.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    You are right. I do know. And I just told you. So lets stay on the topic and stop invoking these emotional nonsensical arguments.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • GT FishGT Fish Senior Member J-TownPosts: 9,448 Officer
    What more "Science" using thousands of hooks to kill and discard gonna prove?

    Is there a new circle hook that only hooks intended species?

    Cmon this is a for profit "Science"

    If you want to compare Rec's To Com's THEN PLAY BY THE SAME RULES! Hook and line or Buoy fishing where the hooks are checked often..
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  • Ron@.38 Special[email protected] Special Senior Member Posts: 6,921 Admiral
    I apologize for anything considered disparaging to Mr. Kerstetter.

    My opinion however does not change with respect to his research. I do not think we as fisherman should have only one researcher providing all of the data on any subject. Just as peer review is important, peer research is also important. This opinion on the PLL research in the closed zone is due to the fact that with very little additional effort, some very important questions could have been answered. And I still stand by my point that if you convince the public that a certain protocol is important for statistical accuracy, then don't change it mid stream because you ran out of money or couldn't performer the research as planned.

    You have to look back a the arguments that were presented during the original EFP for this work. It started with a plan to put the 13 largest PLL vessels in the fleet ion that zone at the same time and that this effort was required to accomplish the goals of the research. Then its cut to a fraction of that but still with an effort that was required for statistical purposes. After approval the researcher apparently had numerous probloems with observer qualifications, vessel availability, and had to push the research into a two year program with half the effort. That research was government funded if I understand that procedure correctly. Again, when the government pays you for 100 widgets, you should not get the same money for only providing 50 widgets.

    Remember that past research was with our money. Now the new one is with private funding. Different story, but do not represent to us that one protocol is required and then change it after approval of the research plan. Also you must remember that NMFS basically invoked their right to sample within the closed zone for abundance and other purposes. That was done and nothing in the government's plan requires entry into that zone again.

    This is a research plan to try to move to real time adjustment of closed zones. Nice idea, but the NMFS "system" requires certain procedures for this kind of adjustment and cannot be done without significant changes in the way NMFS does rulemaking.

    And, I can tell you all that in a conversation I had with the principal owner of the private firm that will fund the research, he stated very clearly that "He would open the closed zone North of Ft. Pierce" . This is clearly his stated goal. One man, one company, and he is going to tell NMFS where and when he is going to fish. He is not the first to say that and not the last.

    At least we know what the plan is and we don't have to guess.
  • Ron@.38 Special[email protected] Special Senior Member Posts: 6,921 Admiral
    GT Fish wrote: »
    What more "Science" using thousands of hooks to kill and discard gonna prove?

    Is there a new circle hook that only hooks intended species?

    Cmon this is a for profit "Science"

    If you want to compare Rec's To Com's THEN PLAY BY THE SAME RULES! Hook and line or Buoy fishing where the hooks are checked often..

    GT, interesting enough, I heard this week of a circle hook that "repels" sharks. How about that one!
  • ProfessorOProfessorO Senior Member HollywoodPosts: 911 Officer
    Gary, as many people on this forum keep reminding you, you are not a moderator, so please don't tell me what to do. I have no problem with you calling my argument nonsensical since it does not agree with your point of view, but I do not like being called a liar. That is definitely off topic.

    Ron, thanks for providing new insight and information into these important manners. cheers, O
    The goal of scientists is to maximize what we know of the real world by using the mathematical world to optimize the information from the observed world.
  • GT FishGT Fish Senior Member J-TownPosts: 9,448 Officer
    My local fish market has no problem filling their shelves with swordfish. In fact they advertise on facebook daily they have a surplus! It's all buoy and rod and reel caught.

    Cod and Capers on PGA.
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  • broadbill-probroadbill-pro Member Posts: 68 Deckhand
    Ron, There has not been a word you have uttered over the past 10 years that I have not paid attention to, at times you seem to understand that US PLL is a necessary evil as I do recreational catch and release fishing. That does not indicate that we believe in the method, only that we accept it has a place on the table. In all I believe that we along with Tim have made a firm stand for Florida and when push came to shove we aligned on the same side of the fence to benefit all Fisherman in this State.

    In regard to my decision not to re-up on the AP, I think you already know why as you must have the same opinion. At no fault to HMS the AP was designed to be just that, a committee that provides recommendations without voting ability. I have watched Margo during my terms and I am confident she gives as much consideration to public comment as to the panel. Although I enjoy the process of joining together for the event, my schedule has made it increasingly difficult to attend the meetings. No doubt Scott Taylor will be a suitable replacement, if not much more of a pain for some :)

    The writing has been on the wall for US PLL for a long time with enviros attempting to use every bycatch species to close the door on the industry. We have seen juvenile swords, marlin, birds, turtles, seals and now bluefin used to convince NOAA or the judicial system to implement a ban on the gear type as was the case in the Pacific. In each case the resurgence of the bycatch species has shed a doubt on the data that was being used initiate the law suits. We are witnessing more turtles on our coast than ever and billfish stocks appear to be sustainable at current catch rates. So the fight turns to Bluefin. Many may not know that the US longline fleet has never fished for bluefin tuna as a directed species and the incidental take of one or two fish has been the rule since the 1970's. Three fish are permitted per trip now but a minimum of 30,000 of directed species like swordfish is required first which elimanates a lot of vessels without that capacity. This may seem fair until we look at how the bluefin stock is managed by other Nations sharing the same stock of fish. An example would be that after November 1st, the Canadian Government allowed bluefin tuna to be accessed by the Japanese fleet of 150' vessels with a capacity of 200mt per vessel. The fish the Japanese target are the same stock that our general category guys in the NE fish and the same body of fish that US longlines are restricted from keeping.

    To get back on track, Bluefin conservation is the flavor of the week in the attempt to restrict LL operations and it could possibly be the straw that breaks the back. A huge push by enviros to have bluefin designated as endangered is underway that would limit any fishing that causes interaction with the species. Ofcourse recreationals have mixed emotions about this because it is a case of cutting your own nose to spite the LL industry, so most recreational proponents have not made their opinion as clear as the enviros who oppose all fishing. Endangered species listing would restrict interaction for all fishing sectors and could very well limited fishing for any species within the migratory pattern of bluefin tuna. An example of that would be a complete closure of Georges Bank when Bluefin are present.
  • Ron@.38 Special[email protected] Special Senior Member Posts: 6,921 Admiral
    BP,

    We will miss your amazing experience that you brought with you to the AP panel. I have enjoyed the education you have given me from your experience on the waters. You have made me a better representative for the recs by the knowledge you have shared with me personally.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    ProfessorO wrote: »
    Gary, as many people on this forum keep reminding you, you are not a moderator, so please don't tell me what to do. I have no problem with you calling my argument nonsensical since it does not agree with your point of view, but I do not like being called a liar. That is definitely off topic.

    :ontopic
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Senior Member Ozello Fl.Posts: 13,077 AG
    You are right. I do know. And I just told you. So lets stay on the topic and stop invoking these emotional nonsensical arguments.
    So, why didn't you rebuke that idiot beach-trade some 4 or 5 pages back... y'all buddies or you feel some sort of oceanic bond?

    Just curious.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    So, why didn't you rebuke that idiot beach-trade some 4 or 5 pages back... y'all buddies or you feel some sort of oceanic bond?

    Just curious.

    :ontopic
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • GlowStickGlowStick Junior Member Posts: 2 Greenhorn
    Ron
    I have a question :
    Why is it that you support along side, The Billfish Foundation a General Cat. Permit for swordfish ?
    The real truth, not the standard old fill the quota answer......
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