New Gulf Grouper regs coming...

FS Karl Snapper

All you grouper diggers may want to get more active in the ever-changing rules and closures on groupers.

Florida Sportsman suggests that if the grouper stocks are that stressed, there should be no beyond-bag-limit takes. That would allow a year-around fishery with a bag limit of perhaps two fish. The stocks would soar again.

Whenever you stop large commercial takings and use strict limits for everyone, wildlife abound.

Here is a FRA release about hearings by the Gulf Council.

CaptBobBryant

Bad Link

Doc Stressor

Here is what is being considered:

http://www.gulfcouncil.org/docs/amendments/Public%20Hearing%20Draft%20-%202013%20gag%20recreational%20season%20bag%20limit%20and%20closed%20season-September-2012.pdf

Don't attempt to read this if you have a short attention span.

MattD

I'm no fisheries scientist, but shouldn't cutting the bag limit in half roughly double the number of fishing days for the season?
The way they break this down really doesn't make sense to me. If someone is able to explain that would be great. Thanks.

Matt

Doc Stressor

They figure post release mortality based on the number of trips rather than the number of fish that are taken by recs. So the estimated number of days to reach the allowable catch doesn't double if they cut the daily limit in half.

Nosushi4u

They should take into account the area and how deep the water is for the most part.......here in the bb area, most of my fishing is in 50' or less and the release mort rate is about 1%. We never gut hook any with circle hooks and they dont have an expanded air bladder when they come up. This vs fishing on the EC, where we fish mostly in 180', and the mort rate is much higher

MattD

Doc Stressor wrote: »

They figure post release mortality based on the number of trips rather than the number of fish that are taken by recs. So the estimated number of days to reach the allowable catch doesn't double if they cut the daily limit in half.

So no matter what our bag limits are, our season is basically going to be the same. If that's the case, why would they even consider reducing the bag limit and increasing dead discards? Seems like a waste to me.

Matt

Doc Stressor

Most of the proposals would increase the number of days in the season by ~15-20% with a 1 fish limit.

C&R mortality factor used for gags caught at depths less than 60 meters (~66 ft) is 11%. It's 18% and 44% at 20 meters and 40 meters respectively. They use 10% mortality for red grouper taken at any depth.

The mortality rate for shallow caught grouper is probably lower, put it isn't zero. You can't just count all of the fish that swim away as survivors. Most of use catch and release lots of grouper every trip. We typically catch well over 100 grouper on most 40-60 ft trips in order to keep 8 - 12 legal fish. I figure that most fish hooked in the aorta or gill arch will eventually die. That figure would be closer to 11% than it is to 1%. We also put a beating on the gags while fishing for reds even though I try to fish away from structure. So there is lots of mortality during the gag closures as well. I know that we kill more grouper by C&R than we keep. They know that also.

At least they are beginning to consider region differences in seasons. That's a good start.

Blindmullet

All this and fishing is better than it has been in several decades. Just follow the commercial effort. Less days and more fish. Boats that went out for 10days are now loading up after 5-6.

Looks like we are just feeding the machine. Do another study...lol

lemaymiami

Thanks Karl. What really gets to me is that the rules for grouper are being made for offshore areas. As a guide that fishes the Everglades, most of our rivers that drain out into the Gulf hold very nice gags (up to about 30" or 12 lbs - they might be a lot bigger but the're rarely more than a few feet from something nasty along river banks in less than 15 feet of water...). I watch each year as the rules are arrived at and must follow them but they just don't seem to apply at all to my area... Here's a pic of one of our best from last year.

[img][/img][img][/img]

CaptBobBryant

I think we are going to have to modify the way we look t things a bit....

Whether we like it or not...regs are here to stay.

For groupers...I would like to see an increase in minimum size to 24" for red, gag, and black, plus a 2 per person; 4 per person aggregate with a boat limit of 12.

As for the season....
Being closed from Feb to April is not a bad deal....but let's open it for April, May and June
Close it in July, August and September then Open for Oct, Nov. Allow Dec and Jan to be floating months....if we are showing high catches near the limits then close Dec and/or Jan other wise close on or the other or is possible let them stay open.

There is no reason why grouper can not stay open for at a minimum 6 months of the year.

gruntking

CaptBobBryant wrote: »

I think we are going to have to modify the way we look t things a bit....

Whether we like it or not...regs are here to stay.

For groupers...I would like to see an increase in minimum size to 24" for red, gag, and black, plus a 2 per person; 4 per person aggregate with a boat limit of 12.

As for the season....
Being closed from Feb to April is not a bad deal....but let's open it for April, May and June
Close it in July, August and September then Open for Oct, Nov. Allow Dec and Jan to be floating months....if we are showing high catches near the limits then close Dec and/or Jan other wise close on or the other or is possible let them stay open.

There is no reason why grouper can not stay open for at a minimum 6 months of the year.

Your size limits would really stick it to the small/neashore grouper fisherman. We catch 20-23" red grouper as close as 3 miles with a lot of consistency. A bigger gag size would just create more release mortality imo.

CaptBobBryant

gruntking wrote: »

Your size limits would really stick it to the small/neashore grouper fisherman. We catch 20-23" red grouper as close as 3 miles with a lot of consistency. A bigger gag size would just create more release mortality imo.

I was speaking to Fed regs....I am sure the FWC can agree to smaller although they have recently followed NMFS around like little puppy dogs.

The 24" was to add consistency between Gag and Black and Red...I am sure we could never get them to reduces gag to 20 to even 22....which would reduce a lot of release mortality.

gruntking

CaptBobBryant wrote: »

I was speaking to Fed regs....I am sure the FWC can agree to smaller although they have recently followed NMFS around like little puppy dogs.

The 24" was to add consistency between Gag and Black and Red...I am sure we could never get them to reduces gag to 20 to even 22....which would reduce a lot of release mortality.

Oops, sorry for the confusion. I could go for 24" across the board past 9 miles. Hell, I've been known to let 22" Gulf gags go after spending a week in the keys and the 24" black/gag size limit.:willynilly
But yeah, FWC would then follow that and it really would mess up us nearshore guys.

Doc Stressor

A 24" limit on reds would really stick it to the Big Bend guys. The bottom from 40'-60' has been paved with just barely short reds for at least the past 3 years. On many trips we have to wade through over 100 reds in order to get limits for 2-3 people. It seems like most of the reds move out to much deeper water once they reach 20". We are talking about 30-35 mile runs to 40'-60' here. It's over 50 miles to 90' for the bigger fire trucks. And even out there there are shorts.

Total mortality would be reduced if they decreased the size limit to 18" for red grouper in our area. Regional management makes a lot of sense.

Jack Hexter

A lot of you all know Vance Tice, who asked me to post this for him:

VanceTice wrote:

This post is to all you recreational anglers that like to grouper fish.There are probably about 30 hardcore anglers that have been going to Gulf Council and FWC meetings for the last 10 years with very little support from the average grouper fisherman.I will never
understand why we have to beg you grouper fisherman to fight for your rights to be able to keep fish to feed your family a fresh grouper dinner.

If you would like to get off your **** and try to fight for your rights you could show up on Tuesday Oct 16 at the Sirata Hotel at 5300 Gulf Blvd. ST. Pete beach from 6-9pm.The Gulf Council is holding a public comment session to set the gag grouper season for 2013.This will be your only chance to have your voice heard in our area.

One of the proposals is for a split 3 month season and possibly a 1 fish limit per angler.

Believe it or not they heard our voices when 3500 anglers emailed their angry feelings about sector separation with 97 percent against it.You can make a difference if enough of us show up and raise hell. You can go on the FRA website and watch a webinar on talking points on FRA fish eye TV.

Please don't make us have to continue to beg for you to fight for your rights.
Thanks for your time.

Vance Tice

FS Karl Snapper

We could have a good grouper recreational fishery, year around, if we eliminated beyond-bag-limit catches, until and if that first priority is reached.

FS Karl Snapper

Here's a release from FRA. On air tonight.

http://us.mc1136.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.gx=1&.tm=1287501460&.rand=2r4iajcpmpqon#_pg=showMessage&sMid=0&&filterBy=&.rand=26137799&midIndex=0&mid=2_0_0_1_8221961_AAjHimIAAKf7UHcEjAxc6irevog&f=1&[email protected]&m=2_0_0_1_8221961_AAjHimIAAKf7UHcEjAxc6irevog,2_0_0_1_8220983_AAjHimIAAGrnUHcAFApNZiGz5b4,2_0_0_1_8219809_AAjHimIAASTmUHbu0Q4UAhfhUCg,2_0_0_1_8218556_AO3HimIAAP8yUHbrMQ2K0idSz%2Fw,2_0_0_1_8217304_AAjHimIAAQDgUHbrHQ3Q1X0HzPk,2_0_0_1_8216187_AAjHimIAAJL7UHbhbwwJrji8On4,&sort=date&order=down&startMid=0&hash=2e2b59f1f1fdc64c7abb580f4f650a90&.jsrand=2055785

mjacks

Many thanks to Denny O'Hern from the FRA (Fishing Rights Alliance) and Vance Tice who both took the time to attend the FWC meeting in Perry Florida this evening. If you were unable to listen in, both Denny and Vance made very solid, thought provoking points that will definitely give the FWC pause for concern, and reflection, before making any decisions. Denny effectively laid out the fallacy in Andy Strelcheck's (NMFS Gulf Council) scientific idiocy.

All of us need to flow heavy support to the FRA so work can continue - and we can make a difference, considering the massive changes necessary to fix the problems we are faced with today. It is not impossible, it just takes funding in order to affect the change necessary to be able to continue our fishing heritage in this country.

Please support the efforts at thefra.org. I believe Denny said he would have the recordings up on the website tomorrow. Please listen in if you were unable to hear the live feed tonight.

Gary S. Colecchio

Jeff "Grunt King" and I attended the Naples meeting last night. Half of the attendees were FGCU fisheries management students who had no idea what was going on.

Getting past the concertina wire of confusion typical of the nonsense presented in the analysis and options, Vance was correct , in that this seems to be an effort to placate the FWC's call for relief to recreational fishermen.

I suggest that everyone submit written comments indicating what they believe the fishery can sustain in terms of seasons, and bag limits. And do not limit yourselves to the options presented.

Mango Man

CaptBobBryant wrote: »

I was speaking to Fed regs....I am sure the FWC can agree to smaller although they have recently followed NMFS around like little puppy dogs.

The 24" was to add consistency between Gag and Black and Red...I am sure we could never get them to reduces gag to 20 to even 22....which would reduce a lot of release mortality.

I think Gags are 22" in the Gulf. :wink

Are you going tonight?

gruntking

Thanks Gary that was an eye opener. Couple things:
Apathy is our biggest enemy. I'm not sure there was even a private rec. grouper fisherman there other than Gary and I. Students, the Naples charter captains who are getting hammered by the SWGC and CCA, about 20 people total.
Good to see CCA leave the Geiger stuff behind them and get on board with us rec. grouper guys. They could do more imo.
It appears this was really about the blow back they got from FWC with regard to the devastating and incredibly obtuse shallow water grouper closure. The SWGC is supposed to protect grouper spawning 75+ miles offshore from us greedy family level fisherman, lol. An obvious give away to the enviros.
[email protected]
Send them some comments!

GandyGirl

Doc Stressor wrote: »

Here is what is being considered:

http://www.gulfcouncil.org/docs/amendments/Public%20Hearing%20Draft%20-%202013%20gag%20recreational%20season%20bag%20limit%20and%20closed%20season-September-2012.pdf

Don't attempt to read this if you have a short attention span.

Here is a better resource. The Council publishes a quick guide for each public hearing document they create: http://www.gulfcouncil.org/docs/Public%20Hearing%20Guides/Regulatory%20Amendment%20-%202013%20Gag%20Season.pdf

Gary S. Colecchio

The "framework" documentation is fine to illustrate the continued technospeak nonsense mandated to be eliminated in NMFS presentations to the public. The " framework " as we heard yesterday is not framework at all, whatever that means but is infact a scoping document for a rule change which will be acted upon at the end of the month.

Again with no stock assessment.
Again with no data.
Again with nothing more than guesses articulated with astonishing complexity to make it appear scientifically legitimate and valid.
Again it fails every test of reasonableness.

Mango Man

They had us in a little room with a seating for ~ 40. We had an overflow of people standing and the head count was 50 people at last count. Crabtree never even showed up, and he lives in St Pete. Matter of fact, there were only 2 reps there, that's it. Nobody from the Gulf Council.

It seemed that the vast majority were recreational anglers though there was one SOS (local) guy. I left around 8pm so there might have been others.

Some of the speakers were Reel-Lucky (WC), myself, Vance Tice, Capt Buddy Braham, TA Mahoney's and various other rec guys.

One of the themes that resonated was the bad data (imagine that) and opinions on the different options for Gag.

Ol Mucky

Mango Man wrote: »

Nobody from the Gulf Council.

THe Gulf council holds a meeting.......and none of the board memebers showed up?

Slingador

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