New DMU question

binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
I have a question for the Dmtag'ers of the State.

If FWC is going to form these DMU's, what is the carrying capacity for each of these DMU's they are creating?

Also, how do they plan to gather this data from this statement for each DMU below?

DMUs will give us the framework for gathering data, including harvest data, at the local level.
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Replies

  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,812 Captain
    I have a question for the Dmtag'ers of the State.

    If FWC is going to form these DMU's, what is the carrying capacity for each of these DMU's they are creating?

    Also, how do they plan to gather this data from this statement for each DMU below?

    DMUs will give us the framework for gathering data, including harvest data, at the local level.

    I though you said you had a different question. I swear its like talking to a wall. You ask a question and get an answer. Then you ask the same question again. I don't know you from Adam, but I'm beginning to think you might be a lawyer. Your odd ball questions seem to make a little more sense under that theory. They like to make like they dont understand, when really they do, they just enjoy the game of trying to represent something the way they want it to to be viewed, regardless of the actual truth.
  • huntmstrhuntmstr Posts: 6,285 Admiral
    Rich, carrying capacity will have to be determined on an area by area basis. No two DMUs will be the same. In all cases, there is not one place in Florida that is above carrying capacity, so your question is really pointless.

    As for part two of your question, right now, the only plan they have for obtaining information is the new survey. they already did this with Zone B as the entire zone will be one DMU because of its limited size and similarity of terrain throughout. What happened with the survey this year is that any responses where Zone B was identified as a hunt location for the respondent, that person was called by a survey taker and asked more in depth questions about their hunting activity, success, days hunted, etc. so better and more complete information could be compiled.

    With a harvest reporting and tagging system, follow up calls would become unwarranted as the system would provide for more specific harvest information.
    Bushnell, Primos and Final Approach Pro Staff. Proud member of the Fab Five, Big Leaugers and Bobble Head 4.

    I had you pissed off at hello.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    not a lawyer,but thanks for the compliment,failed math too many x's to get into law school,but do have a college degree in criminal justice.

    My original question for your clarification Dog,was why do we need DMU's?

    Don't you think they should understand the DMU's they are creating before they create them?Or just wing it like they've done in the past?
    That is not pointless Chuck,and your saying it's not relevant or important to understand carrying capacity on a DMU,which is absolutley crazy,weather it will be managed for Bucks,or herd.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,812 Captain
    not a lawyer,but thanks for the compliment

    Thats funny. You think thats a complement. You're on a roll!

    Your original question was already answered in the initial string, albeit not exhaustively.

    To Chuck's point.... its true, knowing what the actual carrying capacity is really isn't too important..... what is important is to understand where the herd density is at in relation to the habitat's ability to support it. If you reach or exceed (Chuck's right about how often it is exceeded in FL) the habitats's ability to support the density of deer present, it will be pretty plain to see. Both in the deer and in the habitat. Stakeholder input is one way that they would initially receive this information though.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    if you were comparing my intelligence level to a law school graduate that would be a compliment...if it was to an ambulance chaser not.

    Withthatbeingsaid.. carrying capacity may be over or under utilized on a particular ranch or DMU. Characterizing a DMU goes well beyond how many deer are on it but factors in as many things as predators,nutrients,and competing animals. I'm sure I am missing more
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,812 Captain
    I'm not questioning your inteligence.... just your motives. Are you really not seeing the answers to your questions or are you just playing the same game most laywers do? The things you mention (and more, as you said) are all tied to the habitat. Thats why ecological regions are the FWC's primary factor in determining how to delineate DMUs.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    You bring up a great point, How do you manage your habitat?As a land mgr please xplain so we can all learn a thing or 2.

    My motives are simple,if you've kept up for any period of time you will know 2 things about me.

    A. I am all about 100% access.
    B. I hate quota/special opp,and any other rules that limit our ability to wake up during hunting season,grab your kid and a gun and go out hunting.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,812 Captain

    The overall concepts in the link are eerily similar to what the FWC is working toward. Imagine that! The information in the link describes a state deer management program that is taylored to the needs and circumstances found in that state, but the underlying concepts are same as what you would generally find in most state deer management plans. I thought it was particularly interesting to see that they rely heavily on surveys to measure both deer numbers and regional preferences for increasing or decreasing densities. I guess the FWC really isn't the only one out there doing that! Whodathunkit?
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    How do you manage your habitat?As a land mgr please xplain so we can all learn a thing or 2
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,812 Captain
    You bring up a great point, How do you manage your habitat?As a land mgr please xplain so we can all learn a thing or 2.

    My motives are simple,if you've kept up for any period of time you will know 2 things about me.

    A. I am all about 100% access.
    B. I hate quota/special opp,and any other rules that limit our ability to wake up during hunting season,grab your kid and a gun and go out hunting.

    Then you'll be happy to learn that DMUs dont even speak to access. They will neigher increase or decrease it. Thats not their purpose. They wont increase or decrease quots/special opportunity formats on WMAs either. They do have the potential of increasing the ability to just grab your kid and go hunting though (ex. increased doe days in more productive habitats that can sustain a higher doe harvest than currently provided for).
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,812 Captain
    How do you manage your habitat?As a land mgr please xplain so we can all learn a thing or 2

    All the normal ways. Burning when possible, roller chopping, mowing, herbicide where appropriate, timber thinning, etc.
  • DoradoDreaminDoradoDreamin Posts: 1,917 Captain
    Walker Dog wrote: »
    or are you just playing the same game most laywers do?

    ^ THIS

    I have to give Chuck and Newton compliments on this one. No matter how much they know binnelli-sheister is just stirring the pot, they take the time to come on here and give the best answer as they understand it at least for other folks to read (those that may really want to understand something).

    My motives are simple,if you've kept up for any period of time you will know 2 things about me.
    A. I am all about 100% access.
    B. I hate quota/special opp,and any other rules that limit our ability to wake up during hunting season,grab your kid and a gun and go out hunting. .

    Commendable goals but I think you take the wrong tact at getting what you want. Sitting back and throwing bombs will not get you where you want to go. Supporting a tag or reporting system and then working with the FWC and the data to open up access (which may require harvest limits in some cases) would be the way to go on this IMHO. Having data that forces the Feds and WMDs to own up to the fact that their lands need or could be hunted would also help. But any change in your eyes is a bad change. Wake up, it will never be the same as it was 30 years ago. Either change with the times or be destined to be a dinosaur.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    Thats great news Dog, I hope we can get all that in writing by asking the Dmtag committee to have FWC put it in writing so we don't need to worry about it.

    So what your saying is DMU's can ONLY increase hunting opportunities in Florida,and never decrease hunting opportunities?

    Do you guys have a prescribed plan for all these habitat management practices you speak of?

    Is it a vital part of the success of your habitat with regards to deer management?

    BTW, do you manage for Trophy Bucks,or a healthy herd?
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    ooh boy a dUW member coming to the rescue...I guess we all have been wasting our time trying to get the addition lands opened because we are too stupid to realize that only 150 deer are left out there right? I mean,that's the data you want us to work with right?The data they provided...That will surely convince FWC and the NPS to let us in and hunt it right dreamer...WAKE UP, smell the coffee,take that wool rug off your head dude.
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 Posts: 4,172 Captain
    so if there is a 150 left in big cypress then there not going to hit the number of deer they killed last year right

    BIG CYPRESS
    279
    living life as i like
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    addition lands...NO HUNTING allowed
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,812 Captain
    Healthy herd... although that tends to allow a few of them to become what some would call trophies, that isnt the goal. We've defined desired conditions and SOPs (Standard Operating Proceedures) to either get them there or keep them there, depending on the circumstances. Managing the habitat is vital not only for wildlife management, but for our overall operation.

    It would not be true to say that DMUs would ONLY increase hunting opportunities. For example, if the FWC increased doe days in an area because the stakeholders there were asking for lowered densities, they would not leave them in place indefinitely. If the population responded to the regulation change by decreasing to the desired level, then it wouldn't make sense to continue to have expanded opportunities would it? Today they manage to the lowest common denominator (sorry for the math reference), because they know that it wont degrade the resource in areas where the habitat is most limiting, even if more opportunity could be provided in other areas. So in all areas you could expect opportunities to be at least as abundant as they are today. In more productive areas, they would be able to provide increased opportunities if surveys showed that populations and stakeholder desires warranted it.
  • DoradoDreaminDoradoDreamin Posts: 1,917 Captain
    I guess we all have been wasting our time trying to get the addition lands opened because we are too stupid to realize that only 150 deer are left out there right? I mean,that's the data you want us to work with right?The data they provided...

    We all know that data is crap. AND if we had a reporting system last year, they would know that data is crap. Results from a true reporting system would be data no one could mess with (the results are the results). That's what you seem to miss... :banghead
  • huntmstrhuntmstr Posts: 6,285 Admiral
    He also seems to keep missing the fact that he's talking about lands regulated by NPS and not FWC. FWC can only manage what they are told they can manage. The hunting dates, boundaries, closures, limits, etc are all regulated by NPS. They allow FWC to manage within those side boards. FWC's hands are tied on federal lands. They don't even have authority to manage habitat without NPS approval.
    Bushnell, Primos and Final Approach Pro Staff. Proud member of the Fab Five, Big Leaugers and Bobble Head 4.

    I had you pissed off at hello.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    FAIL again dreamer...you obviously do not know anything about the issue,or place.
    Unless your talking about runnning thru the addition lands on foot and tying ribbons on their heads?
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    FYI Chuck,it was FWC not the NPS who shut down loop Rd...for good reason though.
  • huntmstrhuntmstr Posts: 6,285 Admiral
    Yes they shut down Loop Rd., but they did so under authority of NPS.
    Bushnell, Primos and Final Approach Pro Staff. Proud member of the Fab Five, Big Leaugers and Bobble Head 4.

    I had you pissed off at hello.
  • DoradoDreaminDoradoDreamin Posts: 1,917 Captain
    FAIL again dreamer...you obviously do not know anything about the issue,or place.
    Unless your talking about runnning thru the addition lands on foot and tying ribbons on their heads?

    Let me try to explain slowly. If other areas around the addition lands where hunting is allowed had actual hunting success rates showing more than 150 deer were shot for a comparable size land mass, it would be easy to dispute their findings that only 150 deer existed in that area. If we had many years of data from a tag or reporting system and the year-to-year data showed more deer were being taken, one could easily say the herd was doing well and expanding. If the multi-year data showed hunters were shooting less deer each year, we would know the herd is in trouble and likely getting smaller. A tag and reporting system would give data that could not be disputed (other than some minor adjustments for non-reporting and poaching) and therefore we could extrapolate information to similar areas where hunting is not allowed. See how that works??
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    SERIOUSLY, you should quit while your still in your dream state....do a little research on Big Cypress and the management currently in place...then blab away ok.

    PERFECT example of someone who knows nothing about something,but yet has a lot to offer.

    Get factual Dorado,it is there for the taking...then you can excrapulate whatever your hearts desire.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,939 Admiral
    Wonder how many deer are at Bergerons feeder right now? Should be going off pretty soon...
  • superfishsuperfish Posts: 112 Officer
    Wonder how many deer are at Bergerons feeder right now? Should be going off pretty soon...

    Heard the indians put up a fence because they didnt like the competition,but I bet he's got plenty
  • Turner River TerrorTurner River Terror Posts: 5,726 Admiral
    Wonder how many deer are at Bergerons feeder right now? Should be going off pretty soon...

    Thats funny right there...: )
    Everybody knows Ronnie and the Boys are Their own DMU.

    I think what binellishtr is worried about is more closed off Land. He,s Tired of the Addition Lands crap..And so am I.
    All We see is Closed , No Hunting , No Trespassing , No this , No that.
    I don,t think anythings broken...So why Fix it ?
    You want to fix something ? How about FWC,s Law Enforcement Branch Arrest the Freakin NPS for Lying and closing off OUR Lands under false pretenses.
    I ain,t got many more Years left to walk the Swamps . Been doing it since I was a Kid. My Kids will be able to go to the Oasis Ranger Station and walk the Boardwalk and talk about how Their Dad use to Hunt the Lands . And Folks from Califorina will be able to drive Their Motorhomes to fancy Campgrounds and sit around the Fire and talk about the old Gladesmen Memories ...SAD
    Killin and Grillin :grin
  • DoradoDreaminDoradoDreamin Posts: 1,917 Captain
    SERIOUSLY, you should quit while your still in your dream state....do a little research on Big Cypress and the management currently in place...then blab away ok. PERFECT example of someone who knows nothing about something,but yet has a lot to offer.
    Get factual Dorado,it is there for the taking...then you can excrapulate whatever your hearts desire.

    I understand enough. I may not live there but I've read about the issues and all the threads here and I think Chuck said it best already:
    huntmstr wrote:
    What you need to keep in mind is that anything FWC is asking for in the way of a harvest reporting system or any other management tool is applied across the entire state. Areas like Big Cypress (which have their own tags and rules set by other agencies) can not be changed solely by FWC. Anything that happens on federal lands must be at the discretion and instruction of the feds. They assist and advise, but they do not make the ultimate decisions.

    The FWC cannot control the Feds. The FWC needs enough large scale data to help keep the Feds in check so as the pather moves north we have data to show the changes that occur are due to panther overpopulation. Otherwise, we won't stand a chance in keeping hunting where we have it now, nevermind opening up new lands or lands we used to hunt. The FWC also needs to show they are trying to manage the herd so the Feds can't just set policy on non-Fed land by saying the FWC doesn't have a clue (all in the name of the panther). DMUs and a reporting system would help in that effort. The Feds, in cohoots with the envirowackos, pushing the panther and other endagered species agendas will ultimately kill hunting for us, not the FWC. If you can't see that handwriting on the wall then nothing you write on your little computer screen is going to make a difference. We need hard and fast data or we don't stand a chance in the future against the antis.
  • Turner River TerrorTurner River Terror Posts: 5,726 Admiral
    Dorado , I hear what Your sayin , And I understand.
    BUT Data can be used For You ,.... And Against You.
    Will Politics be used against Us or For Us. Sometimes the Winds can change . And as SWFH knows, Dollars drive the Wind.
    You think it,s bad now ..Wait till theres Panthers in Ocala and Osceola , And every WMA up to the State Line.
    I know how the Good ole Boys will handle to many Panthers. But FWC under pressure from Serria club , Diversity Group , ect.ect will fold to the Pressure .Thats what I,m afraid of.
    Killin and Grillin :grin
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