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Need some LEO Input to a Keys based thread

miami muttonmiami mutton Posts: 1,138 Officer
Today’s trip was out of Tavernier, The ocean was nice with smooth conditions, we ran out to 70 feet and the current was slow to the north, the fish did not want to show very much, I started with a demo and got one tail but, the bite was too slow and far so we moved on to another spot in 82 feet and I noticed a commercial boat near by he was a friend of mine, this spot did not produce in 15min time so as we were picking up anchor I notice the commercial boat was passing by, I text him and he said it was a slow day, they headed south, then we headed to another spot in 55 feet a few miles away and found better current and within 15 minutes, I had the ball of tails behind the boat and the speedo at the chum bag, I got a dozen or so speedo and we caught about a dozen tails and one and a half mangroves, thanks to a cuda, that took the other half. We also caught a nice Mac. After this cuda took the mangrove, the bite dropped and we headed to the deep for the muttons, this customer said to me as we were on the way, all he wanted was a grouper to make his day. When we anchored in the last spot, we got 3 muttons one yellow jack, 1- bonito, 1 yellowtail and 3 sharks and it was time to leave, so I said lets put one more bait down and go , that bait got hit by this 21.lb black, that I weighed on a hand scale, this guy was very happy to say the least. Overall, another good day. here are the pics, Photo1411-1.jpgPhoto1413.jpgPhoto1408.jpgPhoto1414.jpg
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Replies

  • Lone DrifterLone Drifter Posts: 639 Officer
    Benny congrats to you and the crew on some impressive catching:beer
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Angler_2600Angler_2600 Posts: 1,106 Officer
    Benny great catch! How deep was the black?
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Captain
    Benny great catch! How deep was the black?

    Benny... Are these unlicensed Charters you are taking?

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • Lucky7Team2Lucky7Team2 Posts: 6,794 Officer
    Got TA Go wrote: »
    Benny... Are these unlicensed Charters you are taking?

    Rob

    Ruh Roh..
  • DmanDman Posts: 6 Greenhorn
    don't be a hater
  • Lone DrifterLone Drifter Posts: 639 Officer
    Rob ! I have a question that I would like your opinion on, since you are a Charter Boat Captain and I hold your expertise in high regard. When Benny does his Reef Consultant gigs are any USCG or FWC regulations being violated when hiring a reef fishing consultant on a fishermans private boat and said consultant does not captain, navigate and only instructs on fishing techniques ? :USA
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • migsthunnusmigsthunnus Posts: 112 Deckhand
    This is not Rob answering and I am not a licensed boat captain, but I have been around the block a few times (familiar with regulations) and would like to chime in if I can.

    Benny is not in violation of any USCG or FWC rules. It is a private boat which is being "captained" by the owner/designee and Benny is being paid to assist in catching fish (very similar to bringing a deckhand/mate on board).

    If he were in violation, I am 100% sure that Monroe County LEO would be all over him thanks to all complaning that we have seen from Licensed Boat Captains who post the forum.
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Captain
    When Benny does his Reef Consultant gigs .....

    There are no stipulations for a "Reef Consultant" gig in the regs.

    And to follow-up on migs comments, Yes...there are lots of complaints.

    Personally...I could care less.

    Now for the "As I understand it part", and I'm sure we can ask for clarification from someone who can probably quote the reg number...

    Being paid as a mate or deck hand on a boat is different than being hired as a Capt.

    As Capt, on my boat or yours, you are paying me to take you to the fish and show you how to catch them.

    As a mate (deck hand), you are paying me to do as I'm told and to assist in baiting, handling the fish, tieing knots, etc....

    If you want me to "consult" you on your fishing trip....I can do that via phone call, email, as a matter of fact...right here on FSFF.

    If Benny isn't a licensed Capt...he is walking a fine line. It would be like me renting you a fishing pole for $800 and then "inviting" to take you out on my boat so you can use it.

    I know and understand the nature of the complaints. Benny is using the FSFF as a venue to advertise his "consulting" business. There are qualified Capts available that have all the proper licenses and pay the taxes, permits, etc...associated with that line of work that could be hired and no questions would be asked. And they live and fish down in these areas year-round, as opposed to "have car-will travel" on a request.

    While not knowing the specifics of what Benny charges for a day of "consulting"...I'd guess that it's probably less than market rate for someone that lives and does this as a livelyhood.

    I'll copy this thread to the LEO Section so we can try and put the issue to rest.

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Captain
    The thread is here if you'd rather post any answers on the original thread.

    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?70918-Report-In-Tavernier-8-19-12&p=875958#post875958

    TYIA

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • AmericanAmerican Posts: 130 Officer
    Got TA Go wrote: »
    The thread is here if you'd rather post any answers on the original thread.

    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?70918-Report-In-Tavernier-8-19-12&p=875958#post875958

    TYIA

    Rob

    Blatant and flagrant disregard of US law. Another example of the direction our country is headed. Give an inch, take a mile, then dont pay taxes.
  • The Cat's EyeThe Cat's Eye Posts: 1,481 Officer
    Got TA Go wrote: »
    If Benny isn't a licensed Capt...he is walking a fine line. It would be like me renting you a fishing pole for $800 and then "inviting" to take you out on my boat so you can use it.
    Rob

    Miamimutton does NOT take paying customers out on his boat. They must take him out on their boat. i.e., he does not "captain" their boat or even provide fishing rods/reels. He does bring along some terminal tackle, however he consults prior to the trip to advise you on what to purchase and/or rig for a successful trip. He does not even fish during these trips, but teaches people how to catch decent fish on their own. He does bring a lot of chum and performs other duties like handling the anchor, gaffing, netting, and even some cleaning. He will rig and tie some knots, if he sees that you lack good knot and rigging techniques.

    BTW one does not need a "Captain's License" to work on a private boat they do not own. During my 50 years on the water I have known of several individuals who have been hired to work on private yachts for very wealthy owners. These individuals were hired for their fishing knowledge and not for their boating skills or expertise.

    Benny would be the ideal mate for any charter captain that specialized in bottom fishing, but most could not afford him.
    Giimoozaabi
  • Lone DrifterLone Drifter Posts: 639 Officer
    American wrote: »
    Blatant and flagrant disregard of US law. Another example of the direction our country is headed. Give an inch, take a mile, then dont pay taxes.

    US law which one ? FYI taxes has already been asked, addressed and is ancient history. Do you work for FOX news channel ? Relax he's not running for any political offices its recreational fishing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AmericanAmerican Posts: 130 Officer
    US law which one ? FYI taxes has already been asked, addressesed and is ancient history. Do you work for FOX news channel ? Relax he's not running for any political offices its recreational fishing.

    I'll respond to you when you learn how to write. Next.
  • Lone DrifterLone Drifter Posts: 639 Officer
    American wrote: »
    I'll respond to you when you learn how to write. Next.


    That's it ? Next !

    You made an accusation and question stands WHAT U.S. LAW is Benny Breaking ? :huh


    You should not have any problems answering since it is BLATANT AND FLAGRANT RIGHT ? :idiot



    What's the matter can you only dish it out when your on the bandwagon ?
    You are foolish enough to criticize me and my writing when you are having illusions of being the DA. Comparing direction of our country, give and inch take a MILE... You talk non-sense when discussing a fishing report thread.

    Get a life and stop spitting hateful quotes from Fox News ! You sound like one of those bitter Obama hating Americano ?

    Is that Better ? :blowkiss



    Kablam !
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • fish_stixfish_stix Posts: 1,384 Officer
    Hey now! I'm one of those bitter, Obama hating Americanos. And I only watch Fox News. But, I have no problem with Miami Muttonman's business; in fact, I hope to hire him for a couple of trips someday. I grew up in a commercial fishing family and I know a few tricks, but I also know it never hurts to learn some new tricks. I think a lot of the "Captain's" are put out because they can't come close to Benny's success rate on bottom fishing, especially with mutton snapper and yellowtails. For sure, only one of them has ever posted with anything approaching his "numbers" on this forum and that guy fishes the Tortugas. As far as "all the work" it takes to become a licensed Captain, BS! It's not rocket science or most of them would never have gotten a license. Neither do I feel sorry for some one who chose to be a guide/captain and pays all the "dues!" You chose it; nobody twisted your arm and forced you to do it. I'm a Certified General Contractor; I paid the "dues!" So what! Anybody that can pick up a pencil and a saw can build a house and you, as an owner, can hire anyone you choose, licensed or not, to build a house for you as long as they're hired by you and not "contracting." Does that interfere with my business? Not in the least, because most folks aren't willing to do all the other things that a Contractor takes care of on a project. Benny's not responsible for safety at sea, owning the boat, paying for gas, providing tackle or any of the other myriad of details that a guide/captain is required to do. Since his clients already own their own boat why on earth do you figure he's taking clients and money out of the pockets of the "dues payers?"
  • Lone DrifterLone Drifter Posts: 639 Officer
    fish_stix wrote: »
    Hey now! I'm one of those bitter, Obama hating Americanos. And I only watch Fox News. But, I have no problem with Miami Muttonman's business; in fact, I hope to hire him for a couple of trips someday. I grew up in a commercial fishing family and I know a few tricks, but I also know it never hurts to learn some new tricks. I think a lot of the "Captain's" are put out because they can't come close to Benny's success rate on bottom fishing, especially with mutton snapper and yellowtails. For sure, only one of them has ever posted with anything approaching his "numbers" on this forum and that guy fishes the Tortugas. As far as "all the work" it takes to become a licensed Captain, BS! It's not rocket science or most of them would never have gotten a license. Neither do I feel sorry for some one who chose to be a guide/captain and pays all the "dues!" You chose it; nobody twisted your arm and forced you to do it. I'm a Certified General Contractor; I paid the "dues!" So what! Anybody that can pick up a pencil and a saw can build a house and you, as an owner, can hire anyone you choose, licensed or not, to build a house for you as long as they're hired by you and not "contracting." Does that interfere with my business? Not in the least, because most folks aren't willing to do all the other things that a Contractor takes care of on a project. Benny's not responsible for safety at sea, owning the boat, paying for gas, providing tackle or any of the other myriad of details that a guide/captain is required to do. Since his clients already own their own boat why on earth do you figure he's taking clients and money out of the pockets of the "dues payers?"


    :hairraiser You only watch FOX News !

    Fish Stix I agree with with every word you said as I am a bitter Republican Americano also but do not go around derailing multitudes of fishing reports posted by Benny. I can understand the dislike many Licensed Capt's have toward Benny for being unlicensed reef consultant and by far a better fisherman than most all of them.

    American deal with it and stop acting like such a cry baby. Try focusing on your own Charter Fishing operations and maybe just maybe you could be half as successful as Benny ! :wink

    Let me know if you ever get that flagrant and blatant US Law thing figured out maybe next time you'll think before you open your mouth !
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DmanDman Posts: 6 Greenhorn
    "Personally...I coudl care less"

    doesn't sound like it...I stand my original response..."don't be a hater"

    I own my boat and I think it is a great idea for a consultant to show me how to fish my boat, so I can learn all the small details. Benny is offering a great service to boat owner's that get the stink eye from charter captians, when they even suggest that they might take some tricks of the trade back to his own boat....adapt or die, just because charter captains have always done it this way doesn't mean that it's the best model. He is not breaking a law! stop being a hater.


    Got TA Go wrote: »
    There are no stipulations for a "Reef Consultant" gig in the regs.

    And to follow-up on migs comments, Yes...there are lots of complaints.

    "Personally...I could care less."


    Now for the "As I understand it part", and I'm sure we can ask for clarification from someone who can probably quote the reg number...

    Being paid as a mate or deck hand on a boat is different than being hired as a Capt.

    As Capt, on my boat or yours, you are paying me to take you to the fish and show you how to catch them.

    As a mate (deck hand), you are paying me to do as I'm told and to assist in baiting, handling the fish, tieing knots, etc....

    If you want me to "consult" you on your fishing trip....I can do that via phone call, email, as a matter of fact...right here on FSFF.

    If Benny isn't a licensed Capt...he is walking a fine line. It would be like me renting you a fishing pole for $800 and then "inviting" to take you out on my boat so you can use it.

    I know and understand the nature of the complaints. Benny is using the FSFF as a venue to advertise his "consulting" business. There are qualified Capts available that have all the proper licenses and pay the taxes, permits, etc...associated with that line of work that could be hired and no questions would be asked. And they live and fish down in these areas year-round, as opposed to "have car-will travel" on a request.

    While not knowing the specifics of what Benny charges for a day of "consulting"...I'd guess that it's probably less than market rate for someone that lives and does this as a livelyhood.

    I'll copy this thread to the LEO Section so we can try and put the issue to rest.

    Rob
  • lowe-boylowe-boy Posts: 1,222 Officer
    Got TA Go wrote: »
    Benny... Are these unlicensed Charters you are taking?

    Rob

    Since this is ASK The LAW, I'd like to know what are the rules and regs that could close a loop hole like the one this POS is ****?
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
  • lowe-boylowe-boy Posts: 1,222 Officer

    Benny would be the ideal mate for any charter captain that specialized in bottom fishing, but most could not afford him.

    Are you serious? $300/Day - 2-3 guys to a boat. GMAFB

    Benny is clearly a ballsy individual who decided to do what any other person with integrity would not do

    TAKE PEOPLE FISHING TO COMMERCIAL SPOTS THAT WERE SHOWN TO HIM BY FRIENDS AND FAMILY

    Why don't you ask him why his cousin and family dont talk to him over this mess?

    There's only so many of these trips left before the well runs dry- good luck
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
  • fish_stixfish_stix Posts: 1,384 Officer
    I always thought name calling and vulgarity was a no no on this forum. Maybe POS is not name calling anymore on the new FS.
  • WetFeetWetFeet Posts: 57 Deckhand
    Maybe we should ask Albert his cousin that would post on here all the time Albert and his friend a commercial guy who's name I will leave out and a couple of other people who he fished with taught him and took him to their spots and what does he do he goes and takes everyone that will pay him $450.00 to fish the same spot and get the GPS numbers so that they can come back the following week and start fishing the same spot that every other client he has taken there has.
    I will hand it to his family and ex friends that they have not come on here and openly said how he betryed their trust and is using it to benefit from it.
    Maybe he is not breaking a written law, but it is more serious than that, to utilize your family members for your own gain is right out discustin and moraly incorrect, but then again LoweBoy put it correct he is a P.......
  • The Cat's EyeThe Cat's Eye Posts: 1,481 Officer
    lowe-boy wrote: »
    Are you serious? $300/Day - 2-3 guys to a boat. GMAFB

    Benny is clearly a ballsy individual who decided to do what any other person with integrity would not do

    TAKE PEOPLE FISHING TO COMMERCIAL SPOTS THAT WERE SHOWN TO HIM BY FRIENDS AND FAMILY

    Why don't you ask him why his cousin and family dont talk to him over this mess?

    There's only so many of these trips left before the well runs dry- good luck

    Low - Brow: I have known dozens of successful charter boat captains in South Fla (Had breakfast with all of the best charter boat captains every morning for years that docked their boats at the famous Pier 5, back in the 70’s.) Every one of them learned how and where to fish, from either their employers or from family members. Many were mates on other charter boats before striking out on their own. Some were the sons of very successful captains. And all took notes of how and where to fish. The only difference is that the internet didn't exist, so most people never knew how they learned their trade. The only reason Benny is causing a stir is that he is using this forum for monetary gain, and that is also nothing new. More than one person has launched his fishing career from this forum, and the only difference is that most felt they needed a Captain's license and a boat to be successful.

    If you don’t agree with the present bag limits for yellowtail and mutton snappers then you should bark up a different tree, instead of putting the blame on one single individual who is not breaking any regulations and learned his trade no different, than the majority of successful fisherman who make their living on the water.

    BTW Most charter boat mates I have known don't make $400 per day unless they own a piece of the boat they are working on.
    Giimoozaabi
  • WetFeetWetFeet Posts: 57 Deckhand
    So your point is Cat's Eye, maybe we can go out fishing you can take to your spots I will put them in my GPS and take all my friends and they can take their friends and so on, come on man you say that is how the charter captains learned so putting in long hours on the water wasting fuel and years of experience does not count, I cannot agree with you but like I said I will be more that glad to go with you to your spots and take down the #s I am sure you wont mind after all that is ok according to you..
  • alacrityalacrity Posts: 2,666 Captain
    if having spots is what it takes to being a good fishermen, then charter capts are screwed because you can just follow them out of the marina to the their spots and game over. spots are the easy part. the harder part is learning how to fish and learning the environment.


  • Indian River JoelIndian River Joel Posts: 362 Officer
    alacrity wrote: »
    if having spots is what it takes to being a good fishermen, then charter capts are screwed because you can just follow them out of the marina to the their spots and game over. spots are the easy part. the harder part is learning how to fish and learning the environment.

    Very true!
    "Indian River" Joel
    www.wadefishingflorida.com
    321-402-9881
  • I have spent 33 years off NE Florida, never mated for anyone and never had family for education re the same. Only 5 years ago was I consistant on almost any circumstance to justify charging folks. If a customer came on my boat with a GPS he would get his **** kicked before I turned it around and dropped him off. I never anchor so when the commercial guy or weekend warrior wants to peg my spot I am already .5 away. With that being said, the guy is breaking no laws and I like the angle. Our gov has us so over regulated a full time captain can barely make a living. Take a chill pill and focus on our PEW, they are the enemy. Tight lines to all...www.toddscharters.com
  • The Cat's EyeThe Cat's Eye Posts: 1,481 Officer
    Huntress: Unless you confiscate all of your customer’s smart phones and place them in "Cell Block Bags: they can track your boat's entire movements all day long with a simple application installed on their phone. BTW, I have discovered (And simplified) software that can "steal" any boats GPS position that is within 800 yards of my position. (My system is so accurate it’s like I'm on their boat.) I don't even have to be anchored. I have kept this software a complete secret but it’s just a matter of time before this genie gets out of the bottle. (Hint: The software is used by our military.)

    Wetfeet: The charter boat captains I spoke of also put in long hours on the water, it isn't just about spots. I once had a fantastic shallow grouper hole that I was able to keep secret for 26 years. My spot was finally taken from me two years ago, by a LEO who came up next to me. (I wasn’t even anchored but could not get off my spot, since it would look like I was running away from him, but in retrospect that is what i should have done). After he looked in my cooler he scanned the bottom around my boat. After he found the structure I was fishing, I watched him save the GPS coordinates in his chart plotter. He then obviously gave my spot away to his buddies and now the spot is being spear fished, so it’s almost impossible to keep a spot secret in these modern times. In my opinion, the advent of GPS has impacted fishing to such a degree that it almost isn't fun to fish any more. If GPS was turned off tomorrow I would be delighted. BTW I have "developed" computer software that allows me to "steal" anyone's GPS numbers that is fishing within 800 yards of my boat's position. (This software BTW does not rely on radar). To this day I still take very accurate compass bearings of any good spot I stumble upon. (I still carry a vintage hand bearing compass that would cost $600 in today's money) and I miss those days when that was the only technology that was available to the average fisherman.
    Giimoozaabi
  • chiliandochiliando Posts: 609 Officer
    A lot of good points being made here. As already said, in today's world of portable gps units and gps apps on most smart phones, having a secret honey hole is a thing of the past.
    As Alacrity says, having the spot is one thing and being able to catch fish on it is a totally diffrent thing.

    Here is the scary part for all the Bennie haters: He will teach you how to properly read your bottom machine so that you can find your own spots. Hence the consultant name.
    I have found my own spots with what Benny has taught me and guess what? I don't need nor want your honey hole spots. I now have my own! If others fish them i can find more.
    Hope this does not cause you to lose sleep at night.:grin:grin
  • swordfizhswordfizh Posts: 177 Officer
    Time and time again people find my "honey holes" and fail to produce like I do... I fish from land btw, and most times even teach em what tide to fish and how to fish it, where the fish should be stacked depending on time of day and current as well as season and what I believe they are foraging on, not to mention lunar cycle and weather (as in barometer). Benny, you found your hustle and you live off it, keep it up, I love your reports! Now, on the same token, I understand the way the certified captains would feel, but hey, it is all fair in love and war gentlemen! He is not breaking any rules, and not doing anything illegal, hes trying to pay the bills same as all of us.

    -swordfish
    fishy.gif

    "The definition of Insanity is to continue to do the same thing repeatedly and expect a different outcome, thus by definition, fishing is insanity, we are all insane!"
  • Huntress: Unless you confiscate all of your customer’s smart phones and place them in "Cell Block Bags: they can track your boat's entire movements all day long with a simple application installed on their phone. BTW, I have discovered (And simplified) software that can "steal" any boats GPS position that is within 800 yards of my position. (My system is so accurate it’s like I'm on their boat.) I don't even have to be anchored. I have kept this software a complete secret but it’s just a matter of time before this genie gets out of the bottle. (Hint: The software is used by our military.)

    Wetfeet: The charter boat captains I spoke of also put in long hours on the water, it isn't just about spots. I once had a fantastic shallow grouper hole that I was able to keep secret for 26 years. My spot was finally taken from me two years ago, by a LEO who came up next to me. (I wasn’t even anchored but could not get off my spot, since it would look like I was running away from him, but in retrospect that is what i should have done). After he looked in my cooler he scanned the bottom around my boat. After he found the structure I was fishing, I watched him save the GPS coordinates in his chart plotter. He then obviously gave my spot away to his buddies and now the spot is being spear fished, so it’s almost impossible to keep a spot secret in these modern times. In my opinion, the advent of GPS has impacted fishing to such a degree that it almost isn't fun to fish any more. If GPS was turned off tomorrow I would be delighted. BTW I have "developed" computer software that allows me to "steal" anyone's GPS numbers that is fishing within 800 yards of my boat's position. (This software BTW does not rely on radar). To this day I still take very accurate compass bearings of any good spot I stumble upon. (I still carry a vintage hand bearing compass that would cost $600 in today's money) and I miss those days when that was the only technology that was available to the average fisherman.

    I fish 50 plus miles offshore. Good luck with the phone signal. Like I said, I am already a half mile away. Put the radar on 3 miles and when it pings take a look at the direction of the vessel and make a decision. 800 yards wont do it....like I also said, focus on the regulators not our fellow anglers....
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