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Pro XS efficiency

polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
Spent the last week in the Keys and Florida Bay. Ran a BUNCH each day and came home with 14 gallons. The efficiency of the PRO Xs on the 18'9 when running slow is unbelievable. If I slowed down to 25.5 MPH, it would get over 7 mpg. The numbers you see are with a heavy cooler, two people and tons of fishing and dive gear and NO tabs deployed/needed. Nice to post WOT performance, but how well a boat behaves when going slower is increasingly important to me.

Also, it was a solid 2'-3' with some mixed in 4's all week on the reef. Got alot of strange stares being the only flats boat out there:cool:



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Replies

  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    Its definetly efficient but compared to my old 175 EFI not as strong. With the same prop and set up I got about 8 mph faster with the EFI. I was pretty dissapointed with that as I heard it was clearly as strong or even more. Not even close. Just spoke with another 189 owner who changed out of the EFI to the pro xs and found exactly the same thing. I have several different props now and run nearly 6000 rpm on the pro xs but still cant get near the 60 mph my old EFI could deliver no matter what the trim is. I prefer the efficiency though because I usually run 25 - 40 so its not that big of a deal. I just think its an over rated motor for what I find it delivers power wise.
  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    I can wring 62mph out of mine when the weather is cool and I am relatively light. Realistically, it is a 58mph boat in the summer with my nets, cooler, gear, gas, half full live well and the "summer" prop on. After owning a Yamaha F150 just prior, I can report that my opinion is the Pro is noticeably more punchy than the Yamaha....both seem to be good motors in their own right to me. Had a 2.4l 200 EFi on my 2020 Action Craft and really liked that motor too. Hole shot and cruise are what I care about the most, and for me the Opti does pretty darn good there.
  • reelgrimmreelgrimm MiamiPosts: 458 Deckhand
    Nice! Time for the 21 yet?
    My Youtube Channel
    Boat: 2015 25' Competition Single 300 Yamaha
    Latest Fishing Report - Snook on the Beach

  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    Garage is a bit too tight...but if I were going that big it would probably be a Bay Boat. I love the 18'9. Fits my needs to the T.
  • reelgrimmreelgrimm MiamiPosts: 458 Deckhand
    I can't stand the layout on bay boats.. the whole leaning post and huge console thing is just not my style.. I'd much rather have a 21 bird with all the custom options.. would be nice if frank designs a 24 down the road too to compete in that market.

    You're right though, the 18 gets er done.
    My Youtube Channel
    Boat: 2015 25' Competition Single 300 Yamaha
    Latest Fishing Report - Snook on the Beach

  • trponhuntertrponhunter Posts: 249 Deckhand
    that's great efficiency - almost double what I get with my yamy 150 hpdi with twin rotating prop
    *Previous - 2000 Egret 189 carbon w/ vmax 150 - twin rotating prop
    *Previous - 2008 Egret 189 carbon w/ ETEC 150
    *Previous 2010 Beavertail Vengence w/ETEC 90
    *Current - 2015 Beavertail BTV w/ Suzuki 90
  • UnderslotUnderslot Posts: 370 Officer
    what kind of range do you have with that antenna? I want to put a VHF on mine but am tossing around a few dif configurations.
  • 91tiger91tiger Posts: 555 Officer
    What kind of numbers should I expect from a Yamaha F150 on my 189? I had a 2001 2cycle 90HP merc on my Hells Bay and repowered with a 2008 Yamaha F90. The increase in range I had by moving to the four stroke was pretty impressive. I never had anything set up to track it exactly, I just know how much less fuel I had to refil at the end of the day after a lot of running at Flamingo. I never came close to using half of my 27 gallon tank with the four stroke but I was sweating it quite a few times coming back in with the old 2 cycle.

    That being said I don't think I ever came close to getting 7 MPG like Pole Position is able to with his 175. I'm guessing the F150 will get closer to 5 MPG? Frank said he is putting the F150 on mine this week.
  • ZachZach Posts: 9 Greenhorn
    What prop are you running?

    I know this is comparing apples to watermelons, but I can get 5 mpgs with my 175 XS on a 20 ft bracketed SeaCraft (going ~25ish mph). I've been quite please with the motor. This is with a 21p Mirage.
  • FlatsBoyFlatsBoy Posts: 1,390 Officer
    All i half to say is my fuel efficency is spot on with Poleposition.WOT is bringing 3.5 to 3.7 MPG that's at 60+.The funny thing is at midrange at 4000 to 4500 it goes to 4.5 to 5.0.Cruise numbers are at 6.0 to 6.4 depending on fuel load and gear at 3500 bring it down to 3000 and i'm at 7+.You can not beat that with a stick.Also prop setup is important for those numbers.We have also seen the older 189's are heavier by 300 to 400 lbs so the top end numbers and cruise data will be different and not as efficient with the same motors!
    The summer also changes things to.You will loose 200 RPM's and about 1.5 to 2 MPH.The best numbers were during the winter months when there wasn't 100% humidity and 90 + degrees but funny the fuel economy does't take the hit as much just the speed and RPM's!
  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    Zach wrote: »
    What prop are you running?

    I know this is comparing apples to watermelons, but I can get 5 mpgs with my 175 XS on a 20 ft bracketed SeaCraft (going ~25ish mph). I've been quite please with the motor. This is with a 21p Mirage.

    Ultima 20p. And yes, my boat is a whole different animal to a center console. Much lighter and less wind profile.
  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    Underslot wrote: »
    what kind of range do you have with that antenna? I want to put a VHF on mine but am tossing around a few dif configurations.

    I was getting 10-15 miles easy out on the reef between me and a friend. In the 'groves, much less. Far better than a handheld, much worse than with a higher gain antenna.
  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    91tiger wrote: »
    What kind of numbers should I expect from a Yamaha F150 on my 189? I had a 2001 2cycle 90HP merc on my Hells Bay and repowered with a 2008 Yamaha F90. The increase in range I had by moving to the four stroke was pretty impressive. I never had anything set up to track it exactly, I just know how much less fuel I had to refil at the end of the day after a lot of running at Flamingo. I never came close to using half of my 27 gallon tank with the four stroke but I was sweating it quite a few times coming back in with the old 2 cycle.

    That being said I don't think I ever came close to getting 7 MPG like Pole Position is able to with his 175. I'm guessing the F150 will get closer to 5 MPG? Frank said he is putting the F150 on mine this week.

    Not sure Tiger. Apples to oranges, but two boats ago I had an 18'5 Master Angler with the Yami F150. Fuel economy was not near as good as my Egret with the Opti. Still, I really liked that motor too. Truth told, when Yamaha makes a 175 SHO, I think that will be the motor for the 18'9.
  • seavee05seavee05 Posts: 42 Greenhorn
    I re-powered my 1999 189 c/k, with a 175 pro xs recently. I'm running the Ultima 20", and haven't been able to get over 5400 trimmed out. The fuel economy is far better than the carbed 175 Vmax I replaced, but even though I never got the Vmax into the top rpm range for that motor, the top end was considerably faster.
    The 3 blade 21" turbo that I ran on the Vmax, produced the same rpm's (barely 5000), on the pro xs, but was slower.

    I'm not sure what my next move, prop wise should be, but I'd sure like to get this thing dialed in better. The engine is mounted on the second hole, and the engine sits about an inch above the transom. Frank has suggested moving it down to the top hole. That seems like it would cause more more drag, but if I can't dial it in with a prop adjustment, I may have to re mount the motor. It really hasn't been blowing out as long as I trim "negative" to jump out and than trim the boat out as I come up to plane. I can get the boat very light and trimmed out yet never get any where near 60 mph.

    Any suggestions? I believe your boat is glass Glenn, but what prop are you getting 6000 rpm with? Although you're 8 mph slower than the EFI, you're at the top range, and I'm not quite up to the bottom for this motor. I also generally run 25-40 mph most of the time, but would like to get it right and hopefully a better top end.
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  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    Seavee,

    I am by no means an expert, but I believe by dropping the motor you are typically able to get more hull out of the water with trim at higher speeds. Hull drag easily "outweighs" the small increase in drag from the lower unit. My guess is the answer in your situation lies in the weight of your hull vs. the newer ones Frank is building. If the difference is 200-400lbs as mentioned, that likely explains the difference you are seeing between your performance and mine. In the summer, I can spin the Ultima 20p 5700-5800 loaded with lots of trim (which the boat seems to like at speed). For what it is worth, I really like the way the Tempest Plus carries the boat too. You might want to try a 21 given the numbers you are quoting with the Ultima that is the same as mine. I run a 23 Tempest when running light and in the winter and it is with that prop that I see the best speeds and ridiculous economy.
  • seavee05seavee05 Posts: 42 Greenhorn
    Thanks John. You make some good points. While I agree my boat is probably heavier than your fiberglass boat, I was able to get it going 56+ with the Vmax, and never more than 5000 rpm believe it or not. As much as I hate the thought of remounting the motor, I may need to. Is yours all the way down on the transom?
    I was hoping I might be able to tweak another 200-300 rpms with a prop, and get into range. Then I think I could live with what ever top end I achieved, since it runs really well in the mid range, where I run most of the time, very efficient throughout that range.
    5l8lqw.jpg
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    seavee05 wrote: »
    I re-powered my 1999 189 c/k, with a 175 pro xs recently. I'm running the Ultima 20", and haven't been able to get over 5400 trimmed out. The fuel economy is far better than the carbed 175 Vmax I replaced, but even though I never got the Vmax into the top rpm range for that motor, the top end was considerably faster.
    The 3 blade 21" turbo that I ran on the Vmax, produced the same rpm's (barely 5000), on the pro xs, but was slower.

    I'm not sure what my next move, prop wise should be, but I'd sure like to get this thing dialed in better. The engine is mounted on the second hole, and the engine sits about an inch above the transom. Frank has suggested moving it down to the top hole. That seems like it would cause more more drag, but if I can't dial it in with a prop adjustment, I may have to re mount the motor. It really hasn't been blowing out as long as I trim "negative" to jump out and than trim the boat out as I come up to plane. I can get the boat very light and trimmed out yet never get any where near 60 mph.

    Any suggestions? I believe your boat is glass Glenn, but what prop are you getting 6000 rpm with? Although you're 8 mph slower than the EFI, you're at the top range, and I'm not quite up to the bottom for this motor. I also generally run 25-40 mph most of the time, but would like to get it right and hopefully a better top end.


    With the Pro XS 175, I started with a 19 pitch ultima Turbo 4 blade and could not get much more than about 5400 unless it was trimmed way the f up. For some reason, it seemed to work better on Lake Monroe than in the ocean. I found this was the performance after lots of running in saltwater motitoring it over a few weeks rather than just one solo run. So, I had it modified to a 17P and was able to get much closer to 6000 but still had to have more trim than I like on it. I also got a 19P Merc Rev 4 and it performed very close to the 17 P Ultima. Just this week I took the Merv Rev. 4 in to get it modified to an 18 P and hope I can consistently get 6000 out of it with a typical trim. Clearly, a 16P ultima Turbo 4 blade would work fine as well on my rig. I took all the hole plugs out and it gets up great and stays up at with some tabs at suprisingly low speeds. The top end is clearly a function of the RPMs and if you cant hit 6000 with it pretty easy, your boat prop needs to go down in Pitch. Its about 200 RPMS per 1 P. Running it with a prop that cant get the max RPMs will also wear out the engine a lot faster.
    I hear about all these 189s with 21 P or even 23 P and working well. I guess they must be 3 blade props. With a 21 4 blade on my boat I think I would be about 5000 rpms tops.
  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    seavee05 wrote: »
    Thanks John. You make some good points. While I agree my boat is probably heavier than your fiberglass boat, I was able to get it going 56+ with the Vmax, and never more than 5000 rpm believe it or not. As much as I hate the thought of remounting the motor, I may need to. Is yours all the way down on the transom?
    I was hoping I might be able to tweak another 200-300 rpms with a prop, and get into range. Then I think I could live with what ever top end I achieved, since it runs really well in the mid range, where I run most of the time, very efficient throughout that range.


    Mine is all the way down. Also, my hull is kevlar, cap deck glass.
  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    I hear about all these 189s with 21 P or even 23 P and working well. I guess they must be 3 blade props. With a 21 4 blade on my boat I think I would be about 5000 rpms tops.

    My Ultima 20P is the four blade, the Tempest Plus is a 23P 3 blade. Also, You do not need to be able to achieve top of the RPM range to not hurt your motor. I spoke with Merc directly about this and they said if you are around 5500, you are absolutely fine. As it is, I can get 5700is with the Ultima, but do need to trim it up to get there. When I do, the boat continues to accelerate and does not ventilate at all. Each boat can be a bit different, so "mileage may vary".
  • FlatsBoyFlatsBoy Posts: 1,390 Officer
    The 175 Pro XS makes peak power at 5850 RPM's per Mercury Racing Scott Reichow anything over and it is not doing anything for you.Yes 5500 is the lowest you should be without doging the motor.As poleposition said above your are fine at 5500 to 5700 also the bigest factor is conditions current and most of all driver input!
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    FlatsBoy wrote: »
    The 175 Pro XS makes peak power at 5850 RPM's per Mercury Racing Scott Reichow anything over and it is not doing anything for you.

    Perhaps anything "substantive" is what he meant. If you look at all the performance test results for the Pro XS line off the merc website, it's pretty clear that there is a 100% correlation between higher speeds and higher RPMs and this still holds for RPMs over 5850. They have some tests that go up to more than 5850 RPMs that I reviewed. If you take a prop and spin it at 5850 and correlate that to a speed and then increase the rpms to 6000, the boat is going to increase in speed based on all of the data. You are inferring that the boat will either not go faster if RPMs increase to more than 5850 rpms or that it will go slower. The data do not suggest that. However, any speed increase for an extra 150 rpms is minimal so it is doing something for you but nothing substantive unless you are running competitive speed trials.
  • FlatsBoyFlatsBoy Posts: 1,390 Officer
    With the Pro XS 175, I started with a 19 pitch ultima Turbo 4 blade and could not get much more than about 5400 unless it was trimmed way the f up. For some reason, it seemed to work better on Lake Monroe than in the ocean. I found this was the performance after lots of running in saltwater motitoring it over a few weeks rather than just one solo run. So, I had it modified to a 17P and was able to get much closer to 6000 but still had to have more trim than I like on it. I also got a 19P Merc Rev 4 and it performed very close to the 17 P Ultima. Just this week I took the Merv Rev. 4 in to get it modified to an 18 P and hope I can consistently get 6000 out of it with a typical trim. Clearly, a 16P ultima Turbo 4 blade would work fine as well on my rig. I took all the hole plugs out and it gets up great and stays up at with some tabs at suprisingly low speeds. The top end is clearly a function of the RPMs and if you cant hit 6000 with it pretty easy, your boat prop needs to go down in Pitch. Its about 200 RPMS per 1 P. Running it with a prop that cant get the max RPMs will also wear out the engine a lot faster.
    I hear about all these 189s with 21 P or even 23 P and working well. I guess they must be 3 blade props. With a 21 4 blade on my boat I think I would be about 5000 rpms tops.

    What i'm saying is that the power cure of the motor is making peak power at 5850!
    With your modified the 19p to a 17p Ultima at almost 6000 RPM's how did you go from 5400 to 6000 & gain 600 rpm's since most pitch changes are about 150 to 200 per pitch and most real prop guy's won't do more than one pitch up or down because it's not possible with out hurting other performance areas of the prop like speed!By the way what speed are you running with the modified 17 Ultima GPS numbers please.

    I also have a 21 pitch Ultima and it ran 5500 stock i had it moded and it will spin 5700 and i see 60 mph with that prop.My stock 20 pitch Ultima see's 5800 and 58 mph and my B&B Ultima 20p was right in between the stock 20 & 21 so i know these props like the back of my hand heck i'm the one that discoved the Ultimas to run on the Egrets before me no one ever ran them.I know what can be done and what happens when you go to far!In your case taking a 19p and making it a so called 17p just to get RPM's makes no sence to me.I also run a Bravo XS by Merc Racing a 22 pitch and it runs right where the 21 Ultima does with better holeshot & more grip.The only bad thing about the stock Ultimas is they have very little cup they get there grip from blade area and rake which holds the water.Once they get worn down a little they will slip and time to get a new one or have it worked!

    So just because your increasing RPM's doesn't alway get you speed.Now increase pitch will get you more speed but decrease rpm's that is fact and give you better fuel economy!So getting your motor in the 5500 to 5800 RPM range will give you the best of both worlds.Better speed & better fuel burn!It's a balancing act to play and will change from summer to winter light to loaded!
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    My prop guy here in Orlando (Halls) advised 2 P is the most you can adjust. 200 rpms/ P is the average increase. Going down 2p on the Ultima added about 500 RPM on my rig on average depending on tilt. Some are little more or less. I prefer not to have to throw a rooster tail up to get my RPMs up in the 5850 range.
    My Pro XS only gets my boat to 52 with a full load of gear about a 1/2 tank and a couple of passengers with the Ultima and its not easy to hit that. Most of the time it get to 50 and struggles to get higher. It used to get 58 - 59 with the EFI. I am totally sure the old EFI I had was a stronger motor than the Pro XS. I am having my Merc REV 4 adjusted down to 18P and hope to improve the RPMs and speed a bit for the rare times I may want to go that fast.

    I dont think anyone cares what the "power cure of the motor is" as you say if the motor still produces more speed with more RPMs than that benchmark. If max power is not necessarily equal to max speed who gives a crap what what rpm may be max power? I want to know what the most efficient cruise speed and trim settings are and what the max speed/RPMs are. It's not like people are running around adjusting their speed and rpms down some to dial in some benchmark known as max power RPMs.
  • FlatsBoyFlatsBoy Posts: 1,390 Officer
    My prop guy here in Orlando (Halls) advised 2 P is the most you can adjust. 200 rpms/ P is the average increase. Going down 2p on the Ultima added about 500 RPM on my rig on average depending on tilt. Some are little more or less. I prefer not to have to throw a rooster tail up to get my RPMs up in the 5850 range.
    My Pro XS only gets my boat to 52 with a full load of gear about a 1/2 tank and a couple of passengers with the Ultima and its not easy to hit that. Most of the time it get to 50 and struggles to get higher. It used to get 58 - 59 with the EFI. I am totally sure the old EFI I had was a stronger motor than the Pro XS. I am having my Merc REV 4 adjusted down to 18P and hope to improve the RPMs and speed a bit for the rare times I may want to go that fast.

    I dont think anyone cares what the "power cure of the motor is" as you say if the motor still produces more speed with more RPMs than that benchmark. If max power is not necessarily equal to max speed who gives a crap what what rpm may be max power? I want to know what the most efficient cruise speed and trim settings are and what the max speed/RPMs are. It's not like people are running around adjusting their speed and rpms down some to dial in some benchmark known as max power RPMs.

    With all due respect.
    So i guess Halls is the man.So by not using the trim on your motor to get the RPM's and throw a roster tail as you say.Getting the hull out of the water to reduce the wetted surface area and reduce drag which will increase speed you'll just plow thru the water at 6000 rpm's all day long.Should of just rebuilt the old motor!
    Like i said proper setup and driver will make the boat run!
  • UnderslotUnderslot Posts: 370 Officer
    yeah I need to pick up a new prop... I don't feel like mine has as much lift as it used to. Think thats from running it through a few sand bars?
  • FlatsBoyFlatsBoy Posts: 1,390 Officer
    Underslot wrote: »
    yeah I need to pick up a new prop... I don't feel like mine has as much lift as it used to. Think thats from running it through a few sand bars?

    That will do it!
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    It is not possible to push a 189 to near 60 mph on a 175 merc without appropriate trim and handling. The notion you suggest of attempting to plow through with no trim to achieve max speed is ridiculous. Based on the same approximate settings, the 175 efi pushed my boat about 5-7 mph faster on average when compared to the same HP Pro xs. I could hit 58 most of the time and with a light load 59-60 mph and I have one of the original glass boats. After running the same hull around for about 12 yrs now with about 2 yrs on the pro xs, the differences in how the two engines perform is very clear.

    The pro xs is quieter at idle and much more efficient so loosing that speed when compared to the old efi is not a big of deal for me. But I am dissapointed since I thought the new engine would be
    even stronger given all the fan fare about it but it's just not the case. I am still trying some different prop set ups each year to see if further performance improvement may be achieved on the pro xs. There is an Ultima FX Prop out that is an inch smaller diameter the than the ultima 4 that I plan to try shortly. As for rebuilding the old motor, I did and I ran it for 2 yrs more before selling it. I wouldn't go back to an EFI as the extra speed it could achieve is not worth the loss in fuel efficiency to me provided by the latest technology.
  • polepositionpoleposition Posts: 1,053 Officer
    It just strikes me as strange that the newer boats still do achieve better than 60mph top end speed with the Pro where the older boats see such a tremendous drop in performance. Better than 20% drop if you do the math. If you follow the same math, does that mean that the EFI on the "newer" boats would be good for 70? There must be more to the story. Are the gear ratios the same? Trim range? Something just does not seem right as the bass guys all report the ProXS to be at least as strong as the EFI...Padded hulls, but still.
  • FlatsBoyFlatsBoy Posts: 1,390 Officer
    Sorry to hear you can't get it dialed in to your liking yet.As far as the small hub Ultima which is the FX4 http://www.turbo-props.com/products/turbo-fx4-series_fx4 you will need a ring like running a Merc trophy since it is a small hub for the 3 & 4 cylinder's or it will just blow out coming out of the hole and you will never get on plane.All i can say is the three newer 189's boats with the 175 ProXS on them including mine all run the same numbers with the same prop so go figure!I guess your setup being the older boat and how it is loaded will change things.As far as the older motor being more powerful can't aruge that because i never owned one.But i bet the fuel efficiency of the new ProXS is close to double of the old motor.
  • Egrets LandingEgrets Landing Posts: 949 Officer
    . If you follow the same math, does that mean that the EFI on the "newer" boats would be good for 70?

    It would be an interesting test. I think 70 is highly unlikely but a few MPH higher? Perhaps there is real negative HP difference for getting nearly double the MPG.
    On the original boats, the efi pumping in all that extra fuel definetely gets more top end on the same set up when compared to the pro xs.
    I spoke last week with Andy Gerth who has the exact same rig and year as I do and he also recently changed out his orignal 175 EFI for the pro xs. His findings on speed, rpms, and performance were identical to mine.
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