trouble casting

btm930btm930 Boca RatonPosts: 240 Deckhand
need help....im trying to cast my 9 ft. 8/9 weight temple fork outfitter NXT series. I have the original fly line on it i feel like i cast and the line gets stuck in the guides and it only goes 15 ft.....:facepalm any help before i just go:banghead thank you

Replies

  • fltsfshrfltsfshr Posts: 292 Officer
    Check your guides to make sure they are all right and clean your fly line. Use a good fly line cleaner and dressing and check your line for abrasion. See if that helps. You'll know right away.

    fltsfshr
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DogmanDogman Posts: 450 Deckhand
    You didn't mention if you were a beginner caster or if you were experienced. As a beginner myself I had issues getting the line started to where I could cast. When I went to a casting lesson the instructor told me to strip out about 30' of line and use a back and forth motion with the tip of the rod pointed down to get the line out of the rod. Then a quick roll cast to straighten out the slack. After that it was very easy to pick and start false casting. I don't know if this helps but if not I'm sure some one with more experience than I will chime in soon.
    2013 Native Watercraft Slayer 14.5 (Sand) - His
    2010 Wilderness Systems Tarpon 100 (Mango) - Hers
    ________________________________________________
    Lost Fishing - You know it's where you'd rather be!
  • mastercastermastercaster Posts: 1,259 Officer
    This seems obvious, but I've still had this happen to me once in awhile. Make sure your line is not wrapped around the rod near the tip top. It can be very hidden.
  • saltybumsaltybum Posts: 1,579 Captain
    Welcome to fickle fishing... uh I mean fly fishing.
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    Dogman wrote: »
    You didn't mention if you were a beginner caster or if you were experienced. As a beginner myself I had issues getting the line started to where I could cast. When I went to a casting lesson the instructor told me to strip out about 30' of line and use a back and forth motion with the tip of the rod pointed down to get the line out of the rod. Then a quick roll cast to straighten out the slack. After that it was very easy to pick and start false casting. I don't know if this helps but if not I'm sure some one with more experience than I will chime in soon.

    I am assuming the OP is a beginner, but yes, it would help to know. I have a hard time believing that an accomplished caster would be reduced to a mere 15 feet.

    One thing I have noticed over the years, is that some instructors have a "do as I say and do" attitude, when it comes to starting out a beginner. They do not go into the actual physics of fly casting. A novice will watch a good caster move his rod from the 9 o'clock position...to almost the 3 o'clock position. But he doesn't see the power stroke that takes place from approximately 11 to 1, in the middle of that arc.

    One of the tenets of fly casting, is that the fly line will go where the rod tip goes. So with that in mind, it is possible that the OP is applying power too late in the cast, and is actually unintentionally aiming the line toward the ground in front of him.

    Relative to the 30 feet, this is correct. WF fly lines do not perform very well, if any part of the head is still inside the rod tip. This is one of those things that seems so obvious to experienced casters, that they forget to mention it to beginners.
    .......Rick
  • btm930btm930 Boca RatonPosts: 240 Deckhand
    i am a beginner sorry for not mentioning that and permit rat: i def have to try to apply power at the 11-1 position. u might be right that i might be loading the power when I'm pointing the tip already. and i tried one lesson and they guy was (my way or the highway) never really taught me the fundamentals..
  • clampmanclampman Posts: 130 Deckhand
    I would suggest making sure your casting instructor is certified by the Fed. of Fly Fishers before taking another lesson.

    In the meantime, I would suggest going to a ball field and standing with your feet parallel with the foul line/ yard line and casting along the line with your rod held parallel to the ground so that you can watch the loops both directions. Hold the rod handle in a comfortable position between your waist and chest.

    Start out with short strokes and try to flick the line out forward then flick the line out backwards. As you increase the amount of line out, you will need to increase the stroke length and increase the acceleration of the rod a bit to keep the line in the air. You must accelerate the rod all the way to a hard stop.

    If the loop is too wide, shorten the casting stroke - making sure you still come to hard stops at the end of each stroke.

    See if that helps.

    Cheers,
    Jim
  • bonefishdickbonefishdick Posts: 67 Deckhand
    Make sure you stretch out the line. Very important. Have someone cast your outfit that knows how to cast to rule out any equipment problems.

    Watch the line to give it time to straighten out on the forward stroke as well as on the backcast. The line will always follow the tip of the rod which means if you casting stroke is an arc, then the line goes in an arc which results in a short cast diving into the water. The casting stroke should be more of a push and pull motion which means your elbow should be going back and forth on a level plain. Slow down most new casters think casting is at a fast pace and never let the line straighten out and they end up with " S " curves over their head resulting in a dragging the line motion. It is OK to watch the line and what it is doing. The timing and feel will come in time and getting the mechanics down is the most important thing. Once you get the mechanics down the distance will come.

    I hope this mkes sense to you/
    "The Tug Is The Drug"
  • shadowwalkershadowwalker Posts: 2,200 Captain
    Make sure you stretch out the line. Very important. Have someone cast your outfit that knows how to cast to rule out any equipment problems.

    Watch the line to give it time to straighten out on the forward stroke as well as on the backcast. The line will always follow the tip of the rod which means if you casting stroke is an arc, then the line goes in an arc which results in a short cast diving into the water. The casting stroke should be more of a push and pull motion which means your elbow should be going back and forth on a level plain. Slow down most new casters think casting is at a fast pace and never let the line straighten out and they end up with " S " curves over their head resulting in a dragging the line motion. It is OK to watch the line and what it is doing. The timing and feel will come in time and getting the mechanics down is the most important thing. Once you get the mechanics down the distance will come.

    I hope this mkes sense to you/
    One of the better explanations I've read on a bulletin board in some time. I base that on choice of language used, word choice is very important to a students understanding. With forty plus years of learning what works for fly rod students.
    Its easy for me to tell the difference between an individual who teaches from a point of view of owning the ideas and one who is just repeating the words.
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    Shadowwalker, it is probably easy for you to understand and appreciate what was written, because you are already a caster and also probably an acomplished one at that. I read what Bonefishdick said and yes, everything was true, as it was written, but I wonder what a complete novice would think? How would he interpret it?

    Personally, I do not give "casting instructions," (neither do some others here) via the written word, and one reason is just because of this: The written word is open to individual interpretation. Again, I'm thinking about the rank beginners here. Secondly, the beginner who reads written instruction, really needs someone to watch him try to execute those instructions. IMO, there is no substitute for one-on-one instruction, at least from another accomplished caster. Case in point:

    "The casting stroke should be more of a push and pull motion which means your elbow should be going back and forth on a level plain".

    This is actually not completely true and if a beginner did this, the upper and lower halves of his loop would be constantly colliding with each other, possibly leading to much frustration.

    To illustrate why, let's look at the reel....which is directly attached to the rod....and we already all agree that the fly fline is going to go where the rod tip goes. Therefore, where the reel goes, the rod tip goes, and also the fly line.

    Now go through the motions of a cast.....but notice where your reel is, at the end of the back cast....it should be at about the level (height), somewhere between the middle to the top of your head. Now finish a cast and see where the reel is....probably somewhere near the middle of your chest. If we draw a line between the two points where the reel stopped on the back cast and where it stopped on the fore cast, we see that (1) it is NOT on a level plane...and (2) it dropped approximately one foot in the process. The rod tip and the line also dropped by that much on the fore cast. Subsequently, this opens the loop by that much and the top and bottom halves do not hit each other, during the cast. If you need further proof, try making some casts and purposefully keep the reel in a level plane.

    I hope I could illustrate how an otherwise perfectly written instructional post, could mean disaster for a beginner, if the slightest detail is omitted or even written in an obtuse manner. You and I (and all the other experienced casters) understood Bonefishdick perfectly. But what would happen to a beginner?

    I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers here......it certainly was NOT my intention.
    .......Rick
  • Crab BaitCrab Bait Posts: 272 Deckhand
    Try tying the butt of your rod to your forearm and then cast. This stops you from breaking your wrist. Once you realize how much this helps you will be more conscious of it on the water.
  • clampmanclampman Posts: 130 Deckhand
    BTM,

    Here is a link to a page of 5 fundamentals, each with a flash animation to demonstrate what should happen visually. The animations are linked to in blue in each of the fundamentals.

    http://www.virtualflycasting.com/essentials.htm
    IMO, there is no substitute for one-on-one instruction, at least from another accomplished caster.

    Permit Rat, I agree that one on one is certainly the way to go. But not all acomplished casters know how to teach or even know what they are doing themselves. I was a pretty accomplished caster by age 16 but hadn't any idea of the fundamentals of casting until about three years ago (just over 47 years later). Nor could I teach anyone effectively. So, unless the caster has a proven record of successful teaching or has been taught how to teach and actually done it, a newcomer may wind up spinning his wheels and getting discouraged.

    Cheers,
    Jim
  • shadowwalkershadowwalker Posts: 2,200 Captain
    Permit Rat Frankly I don't agree chapter and verse with the way most instructors teach fly rod students. Most notably is never using the word 'casting'. Why use a term that invokes reactions that don't relate in a positive and accurate manner in the students mind. Think on that one for a minute, then consider walking in amongst a large gathering of well versed fly rod instructors and offer to to teach them to learn why they aren't as effective as they might be. Oh heck lets go for the whole apple here, before you offer to share your insights take some real bold steps. Observe the instructors working with students. When there finished and see no sign of improvement, step up and ask the instructor politely if they mind you offering to work with the same student. Then ask the student if they would be open to a different approach on understanding. I let the students decide for themselves what worked for them and what didn't. You see I can't be ruffled or flustered by what any person or instructor thinks of my opinions because to me only the students matter. And they have convinced me I was right to not follow accepted teaching methods. In helping folks to understand simple concepts its the language you choose that matters.
  • Carl BlackledgeCarl Blackledge Posts: 674 Officer
    clampman wrote: »
    I would suggest making sure your casting instructor is certified by the Fed. of Fly Fishers before taking another lesson.

    In the meantime, I would suggest going to a ball field and standing with your feet parallel with the foul line/ yard line and casting along the line with your rod held parallel to the ground so that you can watch the loops both directions. Hold the rod handle in a comfortable position between your waist and chest.

    Start out with short strokes and try to flick the line out forward then flick the line out backwards. As you increase the amount of line out, you will need to increase the stroke length and increase the acceleration of the rod a bit to keep the line in the air. You must accelerate the rod all the way to a hard stop.

    If the loop is too wide, shorten the casting stroke - making sure you still come to hard stops at the end of each stroke.

    See if that helps.

    Cheers,
    Jim


    Chapman,

    The FFF is a freaking joke, The fly casting advisory committee just sent me a FFF "certified" certificate for no reason at all, except I paid my dues and I was buddies with the late Mel Kreiger. I'm a decent caster and do help people out, However how I got the certified BS is beyond me.

    To tell somebody if a person isn't an FFF instructor then they aren't qualified to teach is just BS, It's not like you need to be a Doctor, All you need is to is join the FFF and pay the dues, and your now an FFF "CERTIFIED" big deal.

    Carl
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    clampman wrote: »
    BTM,

    Permit Rat, I agree that one on one is certainly the way to go. But not all acomplished casters know how to teach or even know what they are doing themselves. I was a pretty accomplished caster by age 16 but hadn't any idea of the fundamentals of casting until about three years ago (just over 47 years later). Nor could I teach anyone effectively. So, unless the caster has a proven record of successful teaching or has been taught how to teach and actually done it, a newcomer may wind up spinning his wheels and getting discouraged.
    Cheers,
    Jim

    VERY TRUE! I agree completely. But most "teachers," whatever their discipline, teach because they enjoy it and one would at least hope that those individuals would seek out the avenues whereby thay could learn how to teach. I did this myself at one of Lefty Kreh's seminars (Titusville, Fla., c.1987) I told Lefty specifically that I was there, hoping to get some pointers on how to teach fly casting....as it applied to my particular situation as a guide...i.e., sight casting, usually to a moving target

    Having this information did not mean that I was particularly good at what I was trying to do, however my success rate with my clients did improve quite a bit, so I guess I helped a little.

    Furthermore (to answer Shadowwalker) I wouldn't dream of attempting to interfere in any way with another instructor's techniques. If I happened to be there, and was approached by a student after the session, about a certain something that the instructor said but this fellow did not understand.....then I might try to re-word what the instructor said...OR...if there were another option "technique-wise," then off to the side and out of sight of everyone else, I might try to offer that too and let the student decide for himself what worked best for him. But other than that......no way.

    Shadowwalker: "In helping folks to understand simple concepts its the language (and words)you choose that matters."

    (My edit in boldface) Exactly, and it was the intent of my original post only to point out that through the written word only, mistakes and omissions could be made that might leave a beginner in an utter state of confusion. I was hoping to gently suggest that perhaps it was not a good idea (in most cases) to offer solutions to casting problems on this forum, solely via the written word. That's just my opinion.

    Thank you again, Carl Blackledge.....your opinion of FFF certification parallels mine exactly. I didn't want to say anything, since so many others were so adamantly enamored with it. I sent in for the criteria and an application, now about 20 years ago. At that time there was nothing that would help an instructor address any of the most common problems associated with salt water fly fishing. One would however, be tested on making the now infamous curve cast from both the left and right sides. IMO, this is more of a fresh water technique and has definite merit in stream fishing, where the longest natural drift is called for. But it salt water, I question just how much it is absolutely necessary. Even though MTD gave a perfectly good example in another thread, my contention is that using a normal straight cast, a well placed fly of the proper pattern, will do just as well.
    .......Rick
  • Carl BlackledgeCarl Blackledge Posts: 674 Officer
    Rat,

    Some of the above BS is why I 'm sometimes embarrassed to tell other people that I'm a fly fisherman.

    Then ad the post about the old dirty guy and all that he said/she said BS drama, it sounds more like a soap opera, then grown men wanting to talk about fishing. I'll bet the bait guys come on here and read all this petty BS and laff there ***'s off.

    Well, the good News is I'll be leaving for a Month starting tomorrow, and NO I won't miss the drama :)

    Carl Blackledge
  • clampmanclampman Posts: 130 Deckhand
    The FFF is a freaking joke, The fly casting advisory committee just sent me a FFF "certified" certificate for no reason at all, except I paid my dues and I was buddies with the late Mel Kreiger. I'm a decent caster and do help people out, However how I got the certified BS is beyond me.

    To tell somebody if a person isn't an FFF instructor then they aren't qualified to teach is just BS.

    I agree with you Carl. And I'm sorry to hear of the shennanigans of the FFF and hope this is not common policy. My initial post was based on the presumption that the FFF followed its stated policy regarding certifications. Since they sent you a certification without following their stated policy, I hope (and I bet that you do) fall into the same category as Shadow and Permit, namely the one which was in my second post:
    So, unless the caster has a proven record of successful teaching....

    My recommendation to the original poster was one based on percentages - namely that the chances of finding someone who could help him are better with an FFF instructor (whom I thought had been trained to teach), than a guy throwing flies at the beach or one off the street working in a fly shop. Or one like me who'd been fly fishing since grammar school and had taught himself to cast from 50 something years of tweaking.


    Permit,
    I didn't want to say anything, since so many others were so adamantly enamored with it.
    Why worry? Nobody else does. :grin
    I sent in for the criteria and an application, now about 20 years ago. At that time there was nothing that would help an instructor address any of the most common problems associated with salt water fly fishing. One would however, be tested on making the now infamous curve cast from both the left and right sides. IMO, this is more of a fresh water technique and has definite merit in stream fishing, where the longest natural drift is called for. But it salt water, I question just how much it is absolutely necessary.

    They still do those casts. And it is still a very good policy for anyone looking to learn casting to ask questions of the instructor before forking over any money - like "what kind of fishing do you do mostly for what kind of fish and where do you do it?" That has nothing to do with certificates or non-certificates. Certified instructors can be just as lousy at teaching as certified history professors. But that is basically common sense.

    Carl, I hope you are going someplace teeming with happy fish.

    Cheers,
    Jim
  • Carl BlackledgeCarl Blackledge Posts: 674 Officer
    Chapman,

    Great post.

    Carl
  • clampmanclampman Posts: 130 Deckhand
    I wouldn't say that, but thanks, Carl.
  • Carl BlackledgeCarl Blackledge Posts: 674 Officer
    I disagree with your current philosophy of the curve cast for tarpon.

    I have always been a strong advocate of the head shot when casting to Tarpon, and always knew it was the deadliest of them all. I finally figured out why I thought that - the fish only saw the fly, not the line or leader, even though they only saw the back of the fly, not the total silhouette, it was still very deadly.

    One time in Marathon I was fishing with Capt. Scott Collins. I had the pleasure to have on board and to fish with "super Dave" a friend of his. Dave Dalu is one of the finest saltwater casters I have ever seen. I watched with amazement how he perfectly cast the curve cast as he cast to fish at a 90 degree angle to the boat and hooked fish after fish. I was thinking, wow, now they see the whole fly silhouette and still not the line and leader.....HOW DEADLY. Perhaps the curve cast isn't for you, but don't knock it till you've tried it.
    It works great for me. :) my 2 cents

    Carl Blackledge
  • shadowwalkershadowwalker Posts: 2,200 Captain
    Permit Rat wrote: »
    VERY TRUE! I agree completely. But most "teachers," whatever their discipline, teach because they enjoy it and one would at least hope that those individuals would seek out the avenues whereby thay could learn how to teach. I did this myself at one of Lefty Kreh's seminars (Titusville, Fla., c.1987) I told Lefty specifically that I was there, hoping to get some pointers on how to teach fly casting....as it applied to my particular situation as a guide...i.e., sight casting, usually to a moving target

    Having this information did not mean that I was particularly good at what I was trying to do, however my success rate with my clients did improve quite a bit, so I guess I helped a little.

    Furthermore (to answer Shadowwalker) I wouldn't dream of attempting to interfere in any way with another instructor's techniques. If I happened to be there, and was approached by a student after the session, about a certain something that the instructor said but this fellow did not understand.....then I might try to re-word what the instructor said...OR...if there were another option "technique-wise," then off to the side and out of sight of everyone else, I might try to offer that too and let the student decide for himself what worked best for him. But other than that......no way.

    Shadowwalker: "In helping folks to understand simple concepts its the language (and words)you choose that matters."

    (My edit in boldface) Exactly, and it was the intent of my original post only to point out that through the written word only, mistakes and omissions could be made that might leave a beginner in an utter state of confusion. I was hoping to gently suggest that perhaps it was not a good idea (in most cases) to offer solutions to casting problems on this forum, solely via the written word. That's just my opinion.

    Thank you again, Carl Blackledge.....your opinion of FFF certification parallels mine exactly. I didn't want to say anything, since so many others were so adamantly enamored with it. I sent in for the criteria and an application, now about 20 years ago. At that time there was nothing that would help an instructor address any of the most common problems associated with salt water fly fishing. One would however, be tested on making the now infamous curve cast from both the left and right sides. IMO, this is more of a fresh water technique and has definite merit in stream fishing, where the longest natural drift is called for. But it salt water, I question just how much it is absolutely necessary. Even though MTD gave a perfectly good example in another thread, my contention is that using a normal straight cast, a well placed fly of the proper pattern, will do just as well.
    At no point did I suggest I interfered with an on going lesson, possibly experiences you've had in the past would lead you to that assumption. To be clear I would never get within ear shot of another instructor while they were conducting instruction, unless invited before hand. Frankely I had no interest the verbal interaction only the actions of the student. If they were not showing improvement by the time the line was rolled up and it was obvious the instructor was making ready to walk away then I would step up. As a courtesy I introduced myself to the teacher ask if he minded if I offered to assist his student. Then turn to the student and offer them to sample my approach to instruction. If all party's we're agreeable the fist thing I tell a student "I don't teach casting to fly fishermen, casting is for other types of tackle". And then proceed to explain what that meant. As for offering suggestions on a forum such as this, it is rift with verbal pitfalls and misunderstandings of all sorts, the chances of frustration and aggravation are high and yet I encourage and celebrate those willing to step up and have a go at it. Speaking for my own experience I've had some wonderful conversations teaching across the internet. Yes I've taught people vie the internet to throw a fly rod starting at square one. It can be done with just the written word and a single diagram, been there done that. Heck he even sent me pictures of the fish he caught. But that's a story for another day.
  • Permit RatPermit Rat Posts: 2,283 Captain
    So Carl, you would start off a beginner, and the OP of this thread, who was having trouble getting more than about 15 feet of distance.....with a curve cast? I have been trying not to forget what started this thread in the first place and I still maintain that a beginner (1) should not be concerned with advanced techniques, and (2) He/she does not need to know the curve cast, in order to be successful with tarpon...or any other species for that matter.

    Please don't get me wrong...there are NO disadvantages in knowing how to make a proper curve cast....or any other specialty cast for that matter. They come in handy at times.

    I left the Keys as a guide at the end of 1991. Up until then I had never even heard of a curve cast. If you want to know where I come from, get a copy of the video, TARPON, directed by Guy de la Valdene. Boats with no poling platforms, fiberglass rods and Fin Nor wedding cakes.....AND TARPON!!!! Lots of tarpon. BTW, that prototype Maverick eventually had a platform put on her and I fished and guided from it for a day or two, while my skiff was down with an engine changeover....or something.

    Of course, times changed and I changed with them. But the curve cast, not having been popularized by then, wasn't part of my repertoire and like I said, we still caught fish......and so will our OP here.
    .......Rick
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