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We are in day 6 of the 40 Days

CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Senior MemberSt. Pete...West CoastiePosts: 5,716 Officer
And before it even started we began in the hole.

Some how NMFS says that so far this year we have caught
Estimate Status Year Common Name Total Catch (A+B1+B2) PSE
PRELIMINARY 2012 RED SNAPPER 65,391 57.8


Red Snapper, although they have thus far been unopened.
0 have been actually landed
o have been actually observed
and all have been released alive, but a 40% release mortality will be employed so that is 26154 and if last year average is any indication then so far we have hit 180,000 pounds of our quota.

So far this year effort and participation is off by about 30%

With 6 days in we have had 3 days with fish indices below -3, 2 days of 0 or 1 and 1 day of +2

West winds have been blowing......
National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
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Replies

  • Jack HexterJack Hexter Moderator New Port RicheyPosts: 5,582 Moderator
    Bob I'd like to know how many "fishable" days, meaning, at least to me, winds 10 mph or less to run the 40 or so miles it takes us, on the West Coast of Fla, (not the panhandle where according to FS, they can be caught in some bays) out of the 40 allotted days. The one day it seemed to be fishable to me, I was out of town:banghead Gonna try Friday.
  • surfmansurfman Senior Member WC FLPosts: 6,017 Admiral
    Haven't been out yet and will be lucky if I make the trip this year. :(
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Senior Member St. Pete...West CoastiePosts: 5,716 Officer
    Bob I'd like to know how many "fishable" days, meaning, at least to me, winds 10 mph or less to run the 40 or so miles it takes us, on the West Coast of Fla, (not the panhandle where according to FS, they can be caught in some bays) out of the 40 allotted days. The one day it seemed to be fishable to me, I was out of town:banghead Gonna try Friday.

    About 2 years ago I began looking at a "fishability index"
    I sent out some surveys and compiled data from about 1000 people regarding such things as what conditions would make them not fish, have no effect or might actually prompt them to fish.
    I created a scale form -7 to positive 7
    The scale moves hour by hour and day by day.
    It considers various factors
    Sky conditions; Cloud Cover/Precipitation/Air Temp
    Sea conditions: Wind speed/Fetch/waves/sea temp
    Astronomical conditions: Moon phase/solunar/tidal movements

    Each condition is assigned a value within the range then based on the statistics I compiled they are weighted.

    Most values fall within a -3 to +4 range and then they are combined with the resulting combination the fishability index for that day.
    Now is the tricky part, not every fisherman or every species woudl follow the same index patten.
    One fisherman might not go on a -2 day, while another might, but using the statistics compiled we can get a good idea.

    An indices at or below -3 would keep most anglers off the waters, while a 0 or 1 would not prompt or prevent a fisherman from fishing and a value at or above 2 might actually make a fisherman say to heck with work today, I am going to go fishing.

    Oh and Friday is going to be a -4...just saying
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • Jack HexterJack Hexter Moderator New Port RicheyPosts: 5,582 Moderator
    Yeah, we cancelled at about 11:00 am on Thurs :banghead

    Just another one of NMFS' days where we overfished the rare ARS
  • TrippleTailIVTrippleTailIV Senior Member FloridaPosts: 197 Officer
    To add a serious note, three boats were capsized going out of Destin yesterday.
    Thank you NMFS for continuing the derby style fishing we all so love, clearly, it has no ramifications what-so-ever.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Senior Member Posts: 1,595 Captain
    To add a serious note, three boats were capsized going out of Destin yesterday.
    Thank you NMFS for continuing the derby style fishing we all so love, clearly, it has no ramifications what-so-ever.

    That's EXACTLY what the NMFS wants you to say.

    "Race to fish", "fishing derby", and "effort stuffing" has been their preferred propaganda phrases when pushing Catch Shares.

    Improve the data NMFS, enough of the BS.

    They have artificially truncated our seasons in order to justify implementation of Catch Shares in the recreational fishery.

    Capt. Thomas J Hilton
  • TrippleTailIVTrippleTailIV Senior Member FloridaPosts: 197 Officer
    Tom
    Your missing the point. Three boats capsized. People were put in danger.

    Likely they were going fishing because they feel they have so few days to fish and were willing to take a chance.

    In Texas you don't have this issue. You can fish state waters for snapper year round. Not so much here.

    This has nothing to do with the way you feel about NMFS

    Show a little respect for these folks
  • MattDMattD Senior Member St Petersburg, FLPosts: 167 Deckhand
    Tripple,

    I don't think Tom means any disrespect to those people that were put in danger. We all hope everyone got through this unharmed.

    I think what Tom is trying to get at is that Standard 10 (I think) specifically addresses danger to human life. This allows NMFS to say something to the effect "This derby style fishing is dangerous and another system (read catch shares) needs to be implemented in order to meet Magnuson requirements."

    Hope everyone is OK it's not worth your life for 2 red snapper, no matter how short the season is.

    Matt
  • TypicleseTypiclese Senior Member SpartaPosts: 393 Deckhand
    I'm not afraid to ruffle feathers.

    You can read about it, just Google "destin capsized boats"

    Glad they are OK....but...Reality is what it is. Some here are familiar with Destin Pass, some are not. There's a big bay there that tries to squeeze itself in and out. Give it some good rainfall over a few days and that makes MORE water trying to get through the pass. Add some winds out of the south, outgoing tide, some nice shoaling (they really need to DREDGE the pass again) and you'll get 8+ footers breaking in the pass.

    Take your 21ft bayboat and try to get through that...not so much (hint when you see the 40 Cabo turning back, might be a reason)....ok, try a 27 ft....not so much...I know, I'll anchor from the stern...we all know how that goes. Fortunately no one seriously injured or killed. Fortunately the CG was there as well as a Sea Tow guy. Heck the waves were so cranking that day they sank a cruiser tied up at destin marina.

    Boat "skippers" are responsible for the folks on their vessels. Folks need to act responsibly. This has nothing to do with derby fishing. CG was broadcasting warnings every 10 min on CH 16 - like they always do when the pass kicks up. This is nothing but more of the same irresponsible behavior we see executed time and time again.

    Mother nature does not suffer fools gladly. Just glad no one was seriously wounded or killed. And for the toads from the interior dept that read this forum - tell your bros in Corps of Eng to get a dredge to that pass ASAP...it is long overdue.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Senior Member Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Tom
    Your missing the point. Three boats capsized. People were put in danger.

    Likely they were going fishing because they feel they have so few days to fish and were willing to take a chance.

    In Texas you don't have this issue. You can fish state waters for snapper year round. Not so much here.

    This has nothing to do with the way you feel about NMFS

    Show a little respect for these folks

    I'm not missing the point at all, nor does my my view of the NMFS have anything to do with the obvious here.

    The length of fishing seasons should not be blamed for poor judgement by the captains of these vessels - I am glad that nobody was injured or killed in these incidents, but trying to correlate bad judgement with bad fisheries management is ludicrous. Equally as bad is ignoring history, as "race to fish", "derby fishing", and "effort compensation" have long been the supposed justifications used to justify implementation of Catch Shares / IFQs - it is you Tripple who is missing the point entirely.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
  • markw4321markw4321 Senior Member Posts: 171 Officer
    To add a serious note, three boats were capsized going out of Destin yesterday.
    Thank you NMFS for continuing the derby style fishing we all so love, clearly, it has no ramifications what-so-ever.

    TrippleTailIV

    Nice try with the refreshingly clueless gee whiz touch on the reference to "derby style" fishing. In my 49 years of dealing with lawyers and sycophants I have learned to spot a disengenious comment from a mile away.

    Everyone knows you are here to push catch shares. Recommend you just come clean and do it openly, the hidden agenda game is getting very stale.
  • TrippleTailIVTrippleTailIV Senior Member FloridaPosts: 197 Officer
    MarkW. Yes, I too have in my 56 years been trained to spot zealotry and self righteousness.

    How you read and/or interpreted my post is wrong. It wasn't disingenuous. It was sarcasm. There is a a marked difference. On the contrary, after having lost several friend in a very similar incident, where they believed if they didn't get out to catch snapper immediately, the season would be closed; I see things much differently than you, most likely

    Referring to your 'everyone' comment. Please show me where I have said I am pro catch shares. Was there a vote? (note, this is sarcasm too)

    To educate you and 'everyone', I am not pro catch shares. What I have said is the concept needs to go to scoping as this is the only way this thing will go away. Otherwise it will get kicked around and around just like it has been. Scoping will allow the public, ie you and me, to comment on this issue. As there is very little support, it will ultimately fail.

    But, I guess there are some people that need a dog to kick, thus it never goes away.

    Now, what's hidden about that?


    Unfortunately, I am not a blind follower as your 'everyone' comment seems to indicate. Rational and argumentative, yes. I have never been one to just go along with the crowd unless there is valid reason for doing so.

    I doubt though, and could care less, that the above will change your view of me.

    Thomas
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Senior Member Lower Keys Offshore!Posts: 2,608 Captain
    Your missing the point. Three boats capsized. People were put in danger.

    Likely they were going fishing because they feel they have so few days to fish and were willing to take a chance.

    In Texas you don't have this issue. You can fish state waters for snapper year round. Not so much here.

    This has nothing to do with the way you feel about NMFS

    Show a little respect for these folks

    TTIV... While I don't know the circumstances, and don't care much for that matter, that led to the boats capsizing...I don't see the point you are trying to make. And if the conditions were as Typiclese noted....I would be more inclined to feel more contempt for their actions than respect for the results.

    I for one don't need anyone to tell me when it's safe to fish. I can make that call all by myself...every day.

    A better decision for them, if catching a few Red Snapper is so important, might be to move to Texas. Personally, I don't think that will prevent them from making a bad call...just let them do it in a different area.

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • surfmansurfman Senior Member WC FLPosts: 6,017 Admiral
    You guys missed Tom's point.

    NMFS Doesn't care who they kill to make their point.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Senior Member Lower Keys Offshore!Posts: 2,608 Captain
    surfman wrote: »
    You guys missed Tom's point.

    NMFS Doesn't care who they kill to make their point.

    Surf... I have a hard time blaming NMFS for anyone placing themselves in danger.

    Should we blame NMFS/NOAA for the Deadliest Catch Capt who decided to take his boat out into a "hurricane" on one engine because he didn't want to lose any fishing time waiting to make repairs?

    That sounds more like pure greed.

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • Mackeral SnatcherMackeral Snatcher Senior Member up a creek without a paddle tampaPosts: 13,427 AG
    TTV, your line that:

    ....."Scoping will allow the public, ie you and me, to comment on this issue. As there is very little support, it will ultimately fail."

    Is not (IMHO) realistic since it has been proven over and over again(again IMHO) that they do not give a flying fart what we say during the "public input" portion of the council meetings.
    They have a pre determined agenda and work backwards from there to get their desired results.(once again, IMHO)
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • ACME Ventures FishingACME Ventures Fishing Senior Member MimsPosts: 851 Officer
    Allowing Catch Shares in any form, from the necessary Sector Seperation, to a quota plan of any sort, to get on the
    table so to say is a real slippery path. All we have to do is look at the precident set so far. In New England, a "Good
    Natured" 'Pilot Program' was converted without a majority referendum vote being held, after Catch Share funding
    was cut. NOAA's claim is that it was not a new program, but simply an 'expansion' of an existing program, so no
    stakeholder vote was needed! Similarry in the GOM, for the IFQ to get in, the qualifiers to vote had to be manipulated,
    which ended dis-qualifying nearly 2/3 of the stakeholders from having a vote in what would control their future in
    fishing. Only with the majority removed from the process did it pass! Allowing some form of dialogue to get rolling
    at the council level is simply an oppurtunity for it to be pushed in reguardless of the publics opposition. Only by
    keeping it off the table completely will we have a chance of keeping the wastfull, expensive, big corporate management
    scheme where it belongs.....DOA!

    The rush to fish will never change for the greedy, recreationally or commercially, Catch Shares or not. Alaska's
    Crab season is very short, and share owners fish in any weather to get there quota....and yes that is a Catch Share....
    so much for SOLAS huh? ARS, like Grouper have spawning seasons, and this is for a science based reason, that
    Catch Shares cannot trump, so when a seasonal closure occurs or ends, guess what those Catch Share holders are going
    to do? Rush to get fish before the closure, and soon as it opens!

    We are having a hearing this week on a possible emergency rule to repoen, at least to some extent, the ARS on the
    SE Atlantic. We, like the Gulf know the stocks are both healthy, and many times more abundant than the NMFS numbers,
    whuch as we know does not include what is the likely bulk of the stocks, around artifical structure. No doubt EDF and Pew
    will be well represented in their opposition to this. They may even have some of their well funded fishing groups they
    continue to funnel money to for support, be there to create an appearance of 'Fishermen Support' for keeping it closed.
    No doubt we will hear that we need to go slow, and be real carefull to make sure the stocks are healthy before taking any
    action, but comming from 2 groups opposed to making reliable science based data manditory in setting ACL's, what would
    we expect?

    Enough discussion has already been done on Catch Shares, Sector Seperation and the like. The position of most anglers is
    pretty well known, as is the manner in which 'crafty acts' have been used to get these programs in, despite majority opposition.
    Its time to kick that subject to the curb. Sadly the ENGO's have gotten way to much corporate money to push this, so they have
    to continue despite the opposition and failures. We too must continue to keep the debate off the table, lest we face the same
    devistating results other have by allowing them to test the waters.
  • TrippleTailIVTrippleTailIV Senior Member FloridaPosts: 197 Officer
    While I disagree that keeping this out of a public forum, I do see your point(s) Marckerel and ACME. Personally, I still like to believe in democracy. I realize the belief and the reality can be two separate entities

    I will concede that the current NMFS administration makes it extremely, if not impossible, difficult to do things that are of benefit to the average angler. ENGOS, at least the whack-job ENGOS (as there are ENGOs who are focused on wetland restoration that tend not to be crazy), have the inside track. I agree.

    In your opinions, what is the best course of action? Allocation changes?
  • surfmansurfman Senior Member WC FLPosts: 6,017 Admiral
    I know, no one wants to be responsible anymore, it is always someone else’s fault. I am fat because of ice cream :) not my fault.

    I think they are having a hard time realizing a problem exists, at least to the extent the NMFS makes it. How about 40 week end days? That may be better, it would be for me anyway.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Senior Member Posts: 1,595 Captain
    We fished from 1995-2006 under a 9.12 million pound TAC for the Gulf Red Snapper, 4 fish per person, and enjoyed 244 day seasons (avg).

    Take a look at the NMFS' own numbers attempting to justify the ever-shortening seasons;

    1995-2006: Rec TAC = 4,468,800 pounds / 244 = 18,314 pounds per day or 5,723 3.2 pound fish per day with 4 fish daily bag limits.

    2012: Rec TAC = 3,959,200 pounds / 40 days = 98,980 pounds per day or 15,227 6.5 pound fish per day with 2 fish daily bag limits.

    Seeing as how the CFH fleet has been reduced by 20% in recent years, fuel prices have surged in recent years, bag limits have been slashed by 50% in recent years, multiple reliable sources show a marked DECREASE in offshore effort in recent years, and considering it's illegal for private recreational fishermen to keep multiple daily bag limits per day, please explain EXACTLY how this is possible.

    Think about it - how are we supposed to catch almost 3X the number of fish per day with 50% less fish per day to do it? Did I mention we also have 20% LESS charter boats? That equates to about 6 trips per day this year as compared to 1 trip per day during the 1995-2006 baseline period.

    (Answer) It's not possible. It's simply cooking of the books by Crabtree and Co. to try to coerce us into accepting Catch Shares/IFQs in the recreational sector.

    There needs to be a SERIOUS investigation into this outright fraud designed to convert our Public Trust Resource into privately-owned commodities using contorted, deceitful models and equations that have absolutely no basis in reality.

    I believe that we currently have LESS effort offshore than ever before. Couple that with the 8.08 million pound TAC, we SHOULD be fishing at least 194 days per year (probably more), IF realistic effort, landings, and biomass assessments data were used.

    Think about it - if we had 200+ day red snapper seasons, would there be any perceived need for catch shares/IFQs in the recreational sector?

    Nope. That's why they have artificially truncated our fishing seasons using intentionally-flawed "best available science" to do it.

    Criminal, to say the least.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
  • ACME Ventures FishingACME Ventures Fishing Senior Member MimsPosts: 851 Officer
    While I disagree that keeping this out of a public forum, I do see your point(s) Marckerel and ACME. Personally, I still like to believe in democracy. I realize the belief and the reality can be two separate entities

    I will concede that the current NMFS administration makes it extremely, if not impossible, difficult to do things that are of benefit to the average angler. ENGOS, at least the whack-job ENGOS (as there are ENGOs who are focused on wetland restoration that tend not to be crazy), have the inside track. I agree.

    In your opinions, what is the best course of action? Allocation changes?[/QUOTE]

    Several real world ideas already out there, but the NMFS seems to be avoiding the obvious.

    1) include the fish found in artifical structure in the numbers used to determine ACL's......sounds to obvious.
    2) determine how many recreational fishermen actually fish the Federal waters.....again seems to simple
    3) determine how many fish are harvested by recreational fishermen in Federal waters....Duh!

    Really, just basic Fishery data that should already be know, but is not.....thats what is needed.

    The failure of the NMFS to collect this information is either Gross incompetance or deliberate and willfull
    withholding of vital data. Either is unacceptable. If NOAA was truely willing to conduct a transparent and
    'democratic' determination of what system fishermen really wanted that would be fine.....but they have
    proven that they are not trustworthy to do so, as the 2 recent examples I noted have proved. As such
    they must be treated with great suspicion and little trust to do the right thing.

    The GOM push for a CFH / Headboat Pilot program for catch Shares is getting attention of the council,
    though only a handfull of Charter captains support and want it, and the Largest Charter groups has
    unaminously opposed it...... Once a pilot gets in it will be hard to stop even with majority opposition.
  • surfmansurfman Senior Member WC FLPosts: 6,017 Admiral
    This is typical fed, take the manatee for example same scenario, there are more manatees in Florida today than there has ever been in the history of the world, this is a fact that cannot be disproven thanks largely to power plants installed up and down the coasts however, the USFWS continues to claim that these things are on the verge of extinction. It is likely that there are also more red snapper in the gulf than ever before. Why?, because of the advent of artificial structures such as oil rigs and reefs. Red snapper are being caught on a regular basis where they never ever existed before, Texas.

    Their numbers are really whacky, no doubt.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • GandyGirlGandyGirl Member Posts: 53 Deckhand
    And before it even started we began in the hole.

    Some how NMFS says that so far this year we have caught
    Estimate Status Year Common Name Total Catch (A+B1+B2) PSE
    PRELIMINARY 2012 RED SNAPPER 65,391 57.8


    Red Snapper, although they have thus far been unopened.
    0 have been actually landed
    o have been actually observed
    and all have been released alive, but a 40% release mortality will be employed so that is 26154 and if last year average is any indication then so far we have hit 180,000 pounds of our quota.

    So far this year effort and participation is off by about 30%

    With 6 days in we have had 3 days with fish indices below -3, 2 days of 0 or 1 and 1 day of +2

    West winds have been blowing......

    Remember Texas state waters are open all year round with a 4 fish bag limit. Those fish are counted against the Annual Catch Limit and no doubt, among other things, contributes to the amount of fish that have been harvested even before the federal season begins.
  • surfmansurfman Senior Member WC FLPosts: 6,017 Admiral
    And remember again, those fish didn't exist before the rigs were built.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • markw4321markw4321 Senior Member Posts: 171 Officer
    GandyGirl wrote: »
    Remember Texas state waters are open all year round with a 4 fish bag limit. Those fish are counted against the Annual Catch Limit and no doubt, among other things, contributes to the amount of fish that have been harvested even before the federal season begins.


    "Punishment" for the 'rest of us' because a State stood up and did the right thing while acting on behalf of its State's- citizenry - no doubt.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Senior Member Posts: 1,595 Captain
    GandyGirl wrote: »
    Remember Texas state waters are open all year round with a 4 fish bag limit. Those fish are counted against the Annual Catch Limit and no doubt, among other things, contributes to the amount of fish that have been harvested even before the federal season begins.

    Texas state waters were open year-round during the 1995-2006 baseline period and were counted against the Annual Catch Limit as well. It was only after the Hijack of our fisheries managment by extreme anti-fishing Engos with the 2006 reauthorization of the MSA did the Texas state water catches become a supposed issue.

    Additionally, the feds take TPWD catch figures and increase them exponentially when they add them into the overall count.

    Capt. Thomas J Hilton
  • GandyGirlGandyGirl Member Posts: 53 Deckhand
    surfman wrote: »
    And remember again, those fish didn't exist before the rigs were built.

    This is up for debate. The scientific community has not decided either way if the artificial structures produce more fish or simply attract them. Read this blog on Artificial Reefs and Essential Fish Habitat: http://gulfcouncil.blogspot.com/2012/06/normal.html
  • surfmansurfman Senior Member WC FLPosts: 6,017 Admiral
    Of course why would they ever think otherwise? A rock pile put out in the middle of nowhere and posted for all the public to hit is nothing more than an attractor, a reef system that actually adds habitat is something completely different. It’s just that a reef, doesn’t matter if it is manmade or natural, in fact if it is manmade it could actually be better because it can be designed to produce better habitat. Anyway, the scientist need more grant money before they will ever decide whether they are beneficial or not no matter what their data says.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Senior Member Ozello Fl.Posts: 13,083 AG
    surfman wrote: »
    Of course why would they ever think otherwise? A rock pile put out in the middle of nowhere and posted for all the public to hit is nothing more than an attractor, a reef system that actually adds habitat is something completely different. It’s just that a reef, doesn’t matter if it is manmade or natural, in fact if it is manmade it could actually be better because it can be designed to produce better habitat. Anyway, the scientist need more grant money before they will ever decide whether they are beneficial or not no matter what their data says.
    Man can't design better habitat than God.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ACME Ventures FishingACME Ventures Fishing Senior Member MimsPosts: 851 Officer
    GandyGirl wrote: »
    Remember Texas state waters are open all year round with a 4 fish bag limit. Those fish are counted against the Annual Catch Limit and no doubt, among other things, contributes to the amount of fish that have been harvested even before the federal season begins.

    Al those fish caught on the artifical structure are counted against the ACL, even though the stock assesments do not really
    include all these fish on artifical structures when determing the biomass to set the ACL's! A double standard designed to
    keep catch limits artifically low.
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