Sector Separation Going To Scoping

Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,580 Captain
The below motion passed 11-5, those voting for were: Pam Dana, Bob Shipp, Jessica McCawley, Larry Abel, Kay Williams, Bob Gill, Kevin Ansen, Johnnie Greene, Roy Crabtree, Patrick Riley, Harlen Pierce.

Voting NO were Corky Perrit, Tom McIlwain, Myron Fisher, Robin Reichers, Doug Boyd.

By a voice vote with no opposition, the committee recommends and I so move: To request that a plan amendment on sector separation be developed and moved to scoping. Passed 11-5

The argument for passing this by many council members was simply to try to gain more information on the impacts of sector separation to the for hire fleet and private recreational community. It was clearly pointed out by the NMFS Science staff and others that there would be no indication of the number of days sector separation would provide to the for hire fleet or the private recreational anglers, so don’t look for much new info from scoping, although you can look for the real possibility of a proposed amendment to create sector separation.

Disappointing to see Council members who were supposedly looking out for the best interests of all recreational anglers vote for sector separation moving forward. I'm VERY surprised at a couple of them, but I guess their actions speak volumes about where they stand now.

Kudos to those Council Members that voted against going forward with this very contentious, divisive issue.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

Replies

  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,922 Officer
    Florida voted for it.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • markw4321markw4321 Posts: 171 Officer
    Florida voted for it.

    Sum of a Beach!

    Wonder how the state of FL intends to ensure its own private citizens fishing in FL state waters maintain an allocation to harvest? Or does Nick Wiley and the governor give a fuzzy rat's behind.


    This is jUst freaking great. Spent 20 plus years flying my **** off with a chanc eof getting it shot off
    in the military to come home to fl and retire and have this **** stuck in me and other recreational fisherman and broke off.

    Mother scratchers . hope all responsible eat crap and die.

    I can just hear in my mind the comments at council meetings after 10 years of sector separation.
    - private recreational fisherman are unsafe and unprofessional on the water. Charter headboats are a more efficient and safe means for recreational fisherman to access the fishery. Therefore, the charter head boat sector deserves more allocation.
    - private recreational fisherman abuse the resource and kill many discarded fish. Therefore, the charter head boat sector deserves more allocation.
    - private recreational fisherman are polluting the environment and burning petroleum resources. Therefore, the charter head boat sector deserves more allocation.
    - meanwhile all the recreational fisherman are at work trying to make a living while the meetings are going on.
    Blah blah blah
    . Know this if you are a fisheries regulator pushing catch shares and reading, i would not whiz on you if you were on fire.
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    Screw'emmm

    They will make us all ignore them....
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • mjacksmjacks Posts: 152 Deckhand
    "I can just hear in my mind the comments at council meetings after 10 years of sector separation."

    I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point. Initiatives to "protect" and "manage" our fisheries have been increasingly driven by non-government organizations (NGO's), typically with foundation support e.g. David & Lucile Packard Foundation, Gordon & Betty Moore Foundation, Walton Foundation et al, acting on their understanding of public interest. These organizations financial influences and the desires of their agenda-driven donors have forced a situation where satisfying government requirements is superseded by the need to satisfy NGO's. This is an unfortunate consequence of what has become far too much reliance on these groups to do the jobs of, or make easier, the jobs and responsibilities of the National Marine Fisheries Service. The very Exempted Fishing Permit Application being discussed here, is an outcropping of EFD's influence, both financial and otherwise.

    I say "don't worry about it too much", because if people don't wake up, there will be no boats on the water in 10 years. After they get your fish, they're coming after your boats. Think I'm kidding?
  • mjacksmjacks Posts: 152 Deckhand
    Yep! Going to scoping! Also known as Sigmoidoscopy. You know, shoving it up you somewhere in the southern region!
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,500 Captain
    Yea, we should just sit back and do nothing, eventually this will just go away….

    In the mean time the proponents for this stuff continue to gain momentum and support, yea lets drag this out all long as possible. People should vote to make a point, yea that is the popular thing to do.

    The above posts are a good example of why many people I know refuse to participate in these forums. Since these guys voted to move this scoping along obviously they must support it. Right?, right.

    This is basically why recreational anglers will always have to struggle to get anywhere in this campaign. We are our own worst enemies.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • gruntkinggruntking Posts: 795 Officer
    I wonder why Bob Shipp would vote for this?
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,580 Captain
    gruntking,
    Good question - why don't you contact him and ask him directly?

    [email protected]
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,922 Officer
    Because he supports Sector Separation. That was clear at the workshop in Tampa.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • gruntkinggruntking Posts: 795 Officer
    Because he supports Sector Separation. That was clear at the workshop in Tampa.

    No kidding! That is poor. Thanks for the email Tom. I'll ask him.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,500 Captain
    Well is this going to become the conservation gossip column or what? Bob has an obligation as a Gulf Counsel member to at least listen to everyone that has a stake in Gulf fisheries, just because he doesn't go off and rail against it doesn't mean he supports it. I think Bob will do the right thing, it may not be what some people want but that is not unusual you can’t please everyone someone will gripe no matter what.

    Some good things are being done and are getting done. I think we are going to see some real progress soon.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,922 Officer
    Well Steve, he certainly was singing the company song in Tampa. And helped to facilitate EDF facilitating it.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • gruntkinggruntking Posts: 795 Officer
    surfman wrote: »
    Well is this going to become the conservation gossip column or what? Bob has an obligation as a Gulf Counsel member to at least listen to everyone that has a stake in Gulf fisheries, just because he doesn't go off and rail against it doesn't mean he supports it. I think Bob will do the right thing, it may not be what some people want but that is not unusual you can’t please everyone someone will gripe no matter what.

    Some good things are being done and are getting done. I think we are going to see some real progress soon.

    I sent Dr. Shipp an email and he replied back very quickly. He said he does not support sector separation. He seems to support a "days at sea" program for the for hire guys.
    For the record, I have always liked him. I hope we can trust him and I hope I'm not out of line posting a recap of his email.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,580 Captain
    Ask him why voted FOR Sector Separation going to scoping then.

    Also, ask him how in the heck could they implement a Days At Sea WITHOUT Sector Separation.

    Lastly, ask him why there is no plan on the table by the Council to have a pilot program for private rec accountability.

    Thanks
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,500 Captain
    He does not support sector separation, however he does seem to support the head boat pilot program which is a scam and we will have to see if we can help him with that. The days at sea is also a little crappy, it would be nice if I could choose my days at sea. Bob is not employed by CCA and he can make his own decisions as he thinks will help out the most. He has done a lot of good things working with the council for many years. You know the old saying it only takes one uh oh to wreck a thousand ‘ataboys. I am sure the posts are flying off the hook on some of those other web sites by certain individuals that have done way more harm than good, claiming CCA supports this or that., what ever.

    If you think he is wrong then write to him and tell him so he will probably respond and he will listen.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,500 Captain
    Statement of Coastal Conservation Association on the Exempted Fishing Permit presented to the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council April 19, 2012

    At the April 2012 meeting of the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council in Corpus Christi, NOAA Fisheries brought an Exempted Fishing Permit (EFP) request to the Gulf Council for review. It was submitted by the Gulf Headboat Cooperative and outlined a pilot study whereby “selected headboats” in the Gulf of Mexico will examine the feasibility of an alternative rights-based management strategy (catch shares).
    The proposal would allow these few headboats in the study to fish for red snapper and gag grouper, based on allocations given to them, outside the normal recreational fishing seasons. The group selected for the study includes nine headboat owners/captains who operate 13 different vessels. The Gulf Council voted 7-6 on April 19 to endorse this Exempted Fishing Permit.
    Coastal Conservation Association rejects the validity of the EFP and questions the propriety of NOAA Fisheries allowing the proposal to be presented to the Council for consideration. By promoting the EFP, NOAA Fisheries has made a farce of every requirement contained in the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act for the implementation of catch share programs. Catch share programs are not new and their methods of operation and feasibility in the commercial sector are well documented. The stated purpose of this EFP, to study the feasibility of an alternative rights-based management strategy (IFQs), is a poorly veiled excuse to avoid proper Council process and institute a highly contentious and unpopular catch share program in the recreational sector over the objections of the vast majority of stakeholders.
    This incident is just the latest in a string of examples demonstrating the environmental community’s willingness to disregard proper procedures, protocols and laws governing our public marine resources whenever it suits their purposes. By facilitating this proposal and presenting it to the Gulf Council, NOAA Fisheries is complicit in what appears to be an intentional circumvention of the Magnuson Stevens Act.
    As a long-time participant in federal fisheries management in general and in this fishery in particular, Coastal Conservation Association urges NOAA to reject this proposal.

    The Gulf Headboat Cooperative ??? the who???? Basically this is the same end around that the Atlantic pelagic long liners tried to pull where they disguise their fishing as some kind of research project. The only research they are doing is how much money they can make off the resource.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    surfman wrote: »
    The Gulf Headboat Cooperative ??? the who???? Basically this is the same end around that the Atlantic pelagic long liners tried to pull where they disguise their fishing as some kind of research project. The only research they are doing is how much money they can make off the resource.

    Not to mention that some members of this cooperative are known convicted fishery violators....are we now rewarding those that break the law..

    Maybe we should all go out poaching then form a group and ask for special considerations....seems to be the way our government and council operate these days.
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Posts: 24,922 Officer
    Steve, he does. I was there for 3 days and watched and heard him speak the words. That's why he forwarded it to scoping. He believes that charter boat operators fishing under recreational licensure are entitled to a portion of the recreational quota. That is separating the recreational sector into " commercial " for hire and everyone else. That's what this "days at sea" end around is leading to.

    As for him "listening" I think you, as many I talk to, are laboring under the popular misconception that council members behave in the same way as an elected official; representing a constituency and making policy and rule.

    That simply is not the case. As independent contractors and NOAA employees, there is no opportunity for them as individuals to develop policies independent of the direction of the agency. They do not make policy, they ratify it. They cannot substantively change the direction set by the administration.

    A council seat is a sweet gig for someone like Shipp, who supplements his academic income very well by it. He is not about to risk that by swimming against the current of this administration, like our friend Mr. Sapp did.

    He too believed the popular myth and urban legend. And we see where his honesty and concern for recreational fishing and the welfare of the recreational community lead him.

    Those Floridians who did not stand up and oppose moving this charade forward betrayed the state's recreational fisherman's best interests. They are to blame, not be celebrated.

    And certainly they do not deserve to be awarded the honor of being appealed to to do what they were charged with doing.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,500 Captain
    That is a fact.

    I sat on the dock last week end watching a headboat head out in a 4' slop thinking I wasn't going out in that crap, can I choose my days at sea? I don't know Gary maybe I jumped the gun on my comments it just seems that certain people get singled out for certain reasons and then generalities are applied, I wish we were all perfect but, only a few are it seems.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • FS Karl SnapperFS Karl Snapper Posts: 285 Officer
    I don't understand the mention of charter captains wanting a piece of the recreational allocation. The anglers aboard already are part of the recreational allocation and fish under recreational regulations.

    A recreational trip has (or should have) nothing to do with commercial fish sales.
  • ACME Ventures FishingACME Ventures Fishing Posts: 851 Officer
    I don't understand the mention of charter captains wanting a piece of the recreational allocation. The anglers aboard already are part of the recreational allocation and fish under recreational regulations.

    A recreational trip has (or should have) nothing to do with commercial fish sales.

    The CFA crowd that has evolved out of SOS has seen the potential for great profit. Keeping
    science out of the equation and catch limits low, the seasons for Snapper and Grouper will
    continue to end earlier and earlier. As such, these "privilidged" share/quota holders will hold
    their allocations until the recreational season is closed, and offer 'trips' targeting fish closed
    to the general population, thus making it a much more valuable trip. Market Based Management.
    Who would'nt pay more to target fish that the average 'Joe' cannot keep? This only works with
    ACL's being kept low, and stock data that mirrors what is reflected in current catch's by fishermen
    in these waters, kept out of the management process. After all, if reliable data was completed and
    showed biomass to be greater than current calculated, it would allow more recreational participation
    and diminish the value of the guarenteed quota sought by the endgame of Sector Seperation.

    This is all on the recreational side. As it is Charters at the opening of ARS season are a premium
    in the GOM already, imagine what some would charge to fish for them when they are closed to
    everyone else?
  • Chester BrewerChester Brewer Posts: 171 Officer
    I don't understand the mention of charter captains wanting a piece of the recreational allocation. The anglers aboard already are part of the recreational allocation and fish under recreational regulations.

    A recreational trip has (or should have) nothing to do with commercial fish sales.
    Karl,
    You are old enough and certainly wise enough to understand greed and hypocrisy. Chester
  • FS Karl SnapperFS Karl Snapper Posts: 285 Officer
    I just don't expect to be so blatant and swallowed by quasi-officials.

    I wish the people proposing these schemes would give hypothetical examples of how they think it might work. It would be apparent quickly that it's nutso.

    Would it apply to guides and inshore captains who take clients offshore on a dead flat day? Would the allocations be to captains or the recreational customers?

    We're going to see a lot of time and resources wasted before this notion dies of its own wrinkles.
  • Chester BrewerChester Brewer Posts: 171 Officer
    Karl,
    It is not being swallowed, it is being embraced. You are correct that too much time will be spent on this outrage. So be it. This "scoping" in conjunction with the EDF head boat application for an EFP should make it clear what EDF will do to the recreation that we all love, if they are not stopped. We will have to expend a great deal of time and treasure but in the end this thievery will not stand. Chester
  • FS Karl SnapperFS Karl Snapper Posts: 285 Officer
    Right, Chester, but we have to speak up loud and clear or this nonsense will perpetuate itself. It's fueled by ignorance of fisheries management methods that do indeed work just fine.
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