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frozen red fish head onboard vessel

intowinintowin Junior MemberPosts: 17 Greenhorn
I kept a redfish head for crab bait and was nearly ticketed for it despite the fact it was frozen. Law officer said fish had to be landed in whole condition. I was under the impression this law delt with the filets and not the carcuss. If I want to dispose of my carcusses into my crab trap wouldnt this be leagal. Especially if the carcus is still evidently half frozen and no filets are on board?
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Replies

  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    No.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ruskinredneckruskinredneck Senior Member Tampa, Little Gasparilla Island, ChassahowitzkaPosts: 1,121 Officer
    Gary is correct.
  • SCFD rtrd.SCFD rtrd. Senior Member Maitland, Fl. / Englewood Fl.Posts: 1,390 Officer
    Well, being absolutely correct and following the letter of the law is one thing, but using a little common since is another. Hard to believe a LEO would want to cite you for having a frozen Red fish head and no other fish parts on board. Did you have the crab trap with you? Is there more to this story?
  • fish_stixfish_stix Senior Member Palm BayPosts: 1,395 Officer
    It would take a real **** to ticket someone for crap like that. When I ran my traps I would take a whole sack of backbones, heads, guts and skin out for bait. Never even got questioned on it. I landed the fish whole and then took the remains back out again; is that unlawful? Show me in black and white. I believe a judge would laugh his butt off at an idiot that would write a ticket for this.
  • intowinintowin Junior Member Posts: 17 Greenhorn
    I am glad someone is seeing my point. I hate wasting fish if I dont have too. Throwing the heads in my traps has always been a good way to use all the parts of the fish. I certainly understand no filets on board, and actually thought that is what the law had in mind. But no carcuss on board? Ludacrist, who throws away the filet and keeps the carcus? I hope someone can show me in black and white where this is allowed which I am sure it must be with all the crabbers out there doing it.

    Not much more to the story other than he really was an **** from the beginning. He kept saying I dont know what you could have done with the filets. Maybe you gave them to a buddy on the river. (Oh yes gave em to a buddy and kept the heads which mysteriously froze on my way to the ramp) And yes it was obvious I was crabbing as the boat was covered in mud.

    No joke guys this happened and I hope to find clarity..
  • Key LimeKey Lime Senior Member Southeast of DisorderPosts: 356 Deckhand
    Not much you can do to change this guy's attitude. Reporting him could work, or it could **** him off.

    Do you have a FoodSaver? Granted, you'd have to waste a bag or two, but it would be pretty clear that you didn't vacuum pack while on the water.
  • ReelhootReelhoot Senior Member Posts: 251 Officer
    Ya think? I got a visit while fishing and had a few bags of freezer burned fish in ziplock bags that were still half frozen and had a similar experience. I think KEYLIME has it right in that you can't change his attitude;most people with attitudes normally don't have any common sense! Unfortunately.
    http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p341728

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  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    I think its pretty clear; you cannot have any regulated species on your boat in any condition but whole. And since there is no provision in the rule to exclude it; "except when used as bait" (which I think if there was, you would see that used to circumvent length limits by people less conscientious then yourself) you put yourself at risk continuing the practice.

    My tarpon club chunks Spanish mackerel for bait regularly, which is also not permitted. I don't know of anyone who has been cited for that, and since your guy did not cite you where he could well have, it doesn't seem to be high on their list of crimes to prosecute.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • intowinintowin Junior Member Posts: 17 Greenhorn
    I think its pretty clear; you cannot have any regulated species on your boat in any condition but whole. And since there is no provision in the rule to exclude it; "except when used as bait" (which I think if there was, you would see that used to circumvent length limits by people less conscientious then yourself) you put yourself at risk continuing the practice.

    My tarpon club chunks Spanish mackerel for bait regularly, which is also not permitted. I don't know of anyone who has been cited for that, and since your guy did not cite you where he could well have, it doesn't seem to be high on their list of crimes to prosecute.

    allowing carcusses on board would not enable someone to circumvent length limits as no filets on board would be the law that would still be enforced. The law should say no filets but carcuss ok..
  • mannn123mannn123 Senior Member Cape CoralPosts: 137 Deckhand
    intowin wrote: »
    I hope someone can show me in black and white where this is allowed which I am sure it must be with all the crabbers out there doing it.

    No joke guys this happened and I hope to find clarity..

    Unfortunately, I can't show you where its allowed (b/c it isn't) but I can show you where it is prohibited.

    68 FL ADC 68B-22.006
    All redfish harvested from Florida waters shall be landed in a whole condition. The possession, while in or on state waters, on any public or private fishing pier, or on a bridge or catwalk attached to a bridge from which fishing is allowed, or on any jetty, of any redfish that has been deheaded, sliced, divided, filleted, ground, skinned, scaled or deboned is prohibited. Mere evisceration or “gutting” of redfish, or mere removal of gills from redfish, before landing is not prohibited. Preparation of redfish for immediate consumption on board the vessel from which the fish were caught is not prohibited.

    I applaud you for trying to not waste any of the fish, however, to be technically legal you need to use either an unregulated species or a species that doesn't require you to land in whole condition (e.g. mullet caught for non-commercial purposes).
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    A fish is a fish. Its condition, live, dead, frozen, thawed. filleted or not, does not change what it is.

    There are a lot of laws in my pinheaded world, which if I were king of it, would say something else. This one is not worth the battle to change.

    I would suggest that if you have not been hurt, there is no need to holler.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Split ShotSplit Shot Senior Member Panama CPosts: 6,193 Admiral
    Mere evisceration? That's interesting. For all game fish? Wonder when they slipped that in?
  • intowinintowin Junior Member Posts: 17 Greenhorn
    the above law still seems to speak to the meat or filet and not to the carcuss. Said it can not be beheaded but I am sure the spirit of the law means body with no head. Not what I did (head with no body) Sure I can see a body with no head being a problem but not visa versa.

    Not gonna drive it in the ground but I still do not feel the above law is protecting the carcuss only the good part of the fish like the filet and meat.

    I will probably continue doing what I have been doing, and if I get ticketed will glady have my day in court. I will also make sure my heads are frozen on board as to have no confusion on the matter.
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    You do know that you just announced to the many and varied law enforcement agencies who frequent the site that you intend to intentionally test the rule and their authority to prosecute it?

    Please post your legal name and boat registration numbers and the dates and location that you will be doing this to save the tax payers investigation time as well as expedite an informative and entertaining conclusion to your thread.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Senior Member Ozello Fl.Posts: 13,080 AG
    You do know that you just announced to the many and varied law enforcement agencies who frequent the site that you intend to intentionally test the rule and their authority to prosecute it?

    Please post your legal name and boat registration numbers and the dates and location that you will be doing this to save the tax payers investigation time as well as expedite an informative and entertaining conclusion to your thread.
    snortle...
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • breambream Member Posts: 76 Deckhand
    The reason for needing the fish in whole condition is so you can tell if it is of legal size. Heads and fillets at either end of the slot can have a bit of variance, and there's no set rule that says a 6" fish head or a 12" fillet corresponds with a fish of "X" inches of length.
  • intowinintowin Junior Member Posts: 17 Greenhorn
    You do know that you just announced to the many and varied law enforcement agencies who frequent the site that you intend to intentionally test the rule and their authority to prosecute it?

    Please post your legal name and boat registration numbers and the dates and location that you will be doing this to save the tax payers investigation time as well as expedite an informative and entertaining conclusion to your thread.

    I think you misunderstood my intentions. My intention is not find that one leo out of 5,000 on this site that loves to pick a battle. The intention is to continue to do as I have been doing, and if I run into a leo that decides to site me, I will gladly take the time I need to take and clear the issue up in court. For the crabbers out there that do not want to willfully engage in wantant waste of marine product including me it is the right thing to do. If the law needs to change maybe I can be the catalist. I still find it very doubtful that I can be ticketed for having a FROZEN fish head on board a vessel that has no freezer.
    Bream thanks for the responce but again I do know why the rule exist but you too are missing the point. Having only a head on board and no fileted meat would not enable anyone to keep undersize fish unless they are dumb enough to throw the meat overboard and bring home the carcuss.
  • James243James243 Senior Member GainesvillePosts: 867 Officer
    To support intown- I see it said that the fish should be landed in whole condition, and I see it done and the "landing" finished when he takes the fish home and fillets it. After the fish is landed i.e.(hooked, reeled in, boated, coolered, taken to land, taken home; all in a whole condition) I think the "landing" is over. Then, if not right after you arrive at shore, it is legal to cut it up for consuption. If he wants to take some part of it back to the water, that is not landing, it is watering I guess. There are many ramps with a cleaning station right there, a crabber or anyone aught to be able to take the leftovers for bait/chum because the fish that produced that were landed in whole condition...were they not?

    The rule cited above says you can prepare a redfish for immedeate consuption on board a vessel, so when do you throw out the head and carcas? If you aren't allowed to keep it then it forces you to rid yourself of proof that you may have filled your bag limit, potentially with no fish in the cooler (if you can eat two now). So if you are preparing the redfish for consumption and an officer sees you lop the head off and chunk the head overboard then comes to ask if the fish was legal length, how are you going to proove it was long enough? or should you even have to prove it under that rule? Are you supposed to keep the skeleton if you do prepare the redfish for immedeate consuption? Can you, as part of preparation for immedete consumption on board a vessel, fillet a redfish and marinade it for a little bit?, or let it soak in lime juice to become civiche? Or is there a strict procedure as to how one must immedeatly cook redfish while on board a vessel?, do I check the "sportsman's kitchen" for that rule citation? Does that mean that only boats without kitchens will be targeted for enforecment?, Maybe the solution is to carry a butane stove and skillet with you or a bunch of limes, and then you are covered.

    I think I'm asking reasonable questions that point to a weakness of that rule. And I think that you are silly if you think that bringing a part of a fish back to the water that you already brought to land is still called "landing" or "landed". And I think it is silly for a rule to say, "must be whole...or you can cut it up if you want to eat it now"
  • DrKDrK Senior Member Posts: 261 Deckhand
    The officer did not give you a ticket so he used his common sense and better judgement. He pointed out the law for you and what can happen if he followed it strictly. He did a good job I would say.

    To stir the pot further I don't think you are allowed to use sportfishes as bait. That might also include crabbing.
  • navigator2navigator2 Senior Member Posts: 22,521 AG
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    snortle...

    :snicker with art::grin
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • hare2hare2 Junior Member Posts: 1 Greenhorn
    James243,
    perfect explanation!

    Thanks
  • 9-Lives9-Lives Senior Member MiamiPosts: 2,124 Captain
    A fish is a fish. Its condition, live, dead, frozen, thawed. filleted or not, does not change what it is.

    There are a lot of laws in my pinheaded world, which if I were king of it, would say something else. This one is not worth the battle to change.

    I would suggest that if you have not been hurt, there is no need to holler.


    I bring smoked fish on the boat all the time and like intowin, I'm not going to change that just because one FWC officer decides to harass me about it. And I most definitely will holler about it if that day comes. I understand you are simply pointing out what the law states, what some of us are trying to say is that common sense needs to be applied when enforcing the law. It was obvious that intowin was not poaching.
    marlin_baitball.gif
  • swampmonsterswampmonster Senior Member Posts: 348 Deckhand
    I can't believe living in America we have to worry about using a frozen fish head for a crab trap! Where has reason gone, it's frozen!
  • monoxidemonoxide Senior Member Posts: 1,094 Officer
    i have never used red fish carcases for crab bait but i have used game fish carcases for shark bait and had fwc watch me rig them up and they never said any thing other then good luck. maybe i just got lucky but i dont want to waste any thing if i can help it.
    ted.gif
    ted.gif
  • JSTickumJSTickum Senior Member Golden Gate Estates ,FLPosts: 412 Deckhand
    This just reminds me of many arguments and reasonings with the FWC from my past , between shark fishing , crabing , to just fishing a couple of days in a row down on the bridges in the keys , Dated Bait Rules frozen seperatly and sank frozen and have nothing left at the end of trip but legal harvest
  • ruskinredneckruskinredneck Senior Member Tampa, Little Gasparilla Island, ChassahowitzkaPosts: 1,121 Officer
    SCFD rtrd. wrote: »
    Well, being absolutely correct and following the letter of the law is one thing, but using a little common since is another. Hard to believe a LEO would want to cite you for having a frozen Red fish head and no other fish parts on board. Did you have the crab trap with you? Is there more to this story?
    I see the point also but may LEO's will ticket you for this. I tried a couple of cases, that I can remember, as an Assistant State Attorney where the defendant had frozen fish heads.

    But, then again, I had to show a Game and Fish officer the difference between a jack and a pompano one time just before trial...
  • Sopchoppy RedneckSopchoppy Redneck Senior Member Posts: 1,421 Officer
    This is from an email that I sent to FWC 2 years ago and he clearly states that once the fish is processed and frozen, it becomes a food product and not subject to regulation by FWC!!! :)
    Thank you for contacting the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. The response to your concerns appears below.

    You may follow the link below to login and check the status of your account.

    Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.
    Click here to visit the Ask FWC Web site.

    Subject
    Transporting cleaned and frozen fish
    Discussion Thread
    Response (DLE-JF) 04/22/2010 08:56 AM
    In general, the daily bag limits set by commission rule for saltwater fishing are for a calendar day (24 hour period from midnight to midnight). These limits are also possession limits. Therefore, it is illegal to possess more than one day’s bag limit "while in, on, or above the waters of the State or on any dock, pier, bridge, beach or other fishing site adjacent to such waters" with regard to most species.

    In Florida's fresh waters, a bag or creel limit is the number of fish an angler can harvest (keep) per day, with a two-day possession limit at a base camp, house boat, or when transporting prior to freezing. Things to keep in mind are: Once the fish are processed and placed in a freezer (not a cooler) at a residence (e.g., their permanent home, a mobile home or motel catering to anglers), they become a food product. From that point on there is no longer a limit on them. So for instance, if someone is fishing all winter and keeps processing their catch and adding fish to their freezer, then puts them on ice to transport someplace else, they can exceed the possession limit.

    Hopefully this clarifies the confusion you had about transporting. If you have further questions, please contact the Division of Freshwater Fisheries Management at 850-488-0331 or the Division of Marine Fisheries Management at 850-487-0554.

    Thank you,
    FWC Customer Service
    YouDontLikeMe.jpg
  • Gary S. ColecchioGary S. Colecchio Senior Member Land of Wind and GhostsPosts: 24,905 AG
    This is from an email that I sent to FWC 2 years ago and he clearly states that once the fish is processed and frozen, it becomes a food product and not subject to regulation by FWC!!! :)

    If it remains in your home or hotel or someone else's in a refridgerator. Not in a cooler and not in your boat as indicated in the first paragraph.

    This isn't all that complicated.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Roc N RolRoc N Rol Senior Member Riviera BeachPosts: 1,352 Officer
    Hey SOP you should have stopped drinking instead of reading. If you had of read the next sentence after what you highlighted you would have read that once you take them out of the house in a cooler they once again become regulated.
  • FrisbeeFrisbee Senior Member Posts: 2,314 Captain
    It clearly states that once it has been processed at home and placed on ice it can be transported. "transporting" includes by boat.
    "...Things to keep in mind are: Once the fish are processed and placed in a freezer (not a cooler) at a residence (e.g., their permanent home, a mobile home or motel catering to anglers), they become a food product. From that point on there is no longer a limit on them. So for instance, if someone is fishing all winter and keeps processing their catch and adding fish to their freezer, then puts them on ice to transport someplace else, they can exceed the possession limit."
    Truth is that people are people. and people aren't good. let a cop stop you for going 6MPH over the speed limit after he just got back in his cruiser from doing a traffic homicide as a result of speeding and see what you get. The same officer 5 minutes before that event would have been in a different frame of mind and might not have even stopped you.
    Society has placed an enormous right with LEO's of all the branches... and most do not handle it well, most of the time. An LEO has alot of discretion..both to let you go or harass the crap out of you. And most of them get it wrong alot of the time. I hate even seeing a cop nowadays. There is no telling what the man is going to do... it all depends on if the "Hot Donuts" light was lit at the last Krispy kreme he went by, or his wife has filed for divorce, or he didn't get the police car he wanted...or....

    To the poster that was an asst DA. you stated you were associated with more than one case which pertained to the topic but you never gave ANY info as to the verdicts and why..would you please tell us?
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