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Of all trips....just as I looked at the average of market price, some places may sell it for 16.95 others 19.99 or an 8oz filet sandwich may be 12.95.......
So your $20 dollar trips is drappging down the cost of the trip in the 40' Sportfish that went to 200' and spent $1500 for his trips....Understand?
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None of the above changes the fact that you're using a bound on an upper limit for the coms and a guess for the recs.
Just use the same level of rigor on both sides of the equation, that's all.
Said a bit differently, what you are suggesting is a very serious change to the way that we regulate the com and rec fisheries. That decision should not be made on a guess.
Understand?
I used the upper market average so I did NOT UNDER estimate the commercial value and I used what I feel is a low average as to not over value the recreational side.
I did that to be fair and to still show the recreational grouper fishery is still many times more valuable.
I was attmepting to be conservative and equitble.
I fail to see how I was being unfair
And all I am suggesting is that as was done for redfish, that maybe the fishery would be better off with limited directed tended gear commercial pressure and a wider recreational use and provided some numbers to back it up.
Numbers which I tried to overestimate commercial value and underestimate recreational....to be fair.
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
I didn't suggest your rec estimates were off or unfair, but simply recognizing them for what they are, an estimate (i.e. a guess).
What's unfair (and perhaps that's too strong a word), is that you are comparing a KNOWN with a GUESS. Even if you think your guess is conservative and fair -- which I tend to believe is the case -- I am simply suggesting more rigor is used on the rec side of the equation.
It's really not that hard of a concept, Bob, and you're no dummy.... So why are you being obtuse? Did the "unfair" part put you on the defensive? If so, I apologize, and (as noted above), perhaps "unfair" was not the right word.
The only thing we can do is estimate the end market value of commercial caught fish (which I was very generous with) and estimate the per pound value of a recreationally caught fish (which I stayed really conservaitve with)
I was a thought exercise for which there is no REAL data, but I used the available data and did the best I could, with the level of rigor that is available, which I might add is probably more rigor than NMFS uses.
One thing that might be pointed out is that the market value does not include the loss form by-catch/kill and what that results in lost opportunity cost.
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No but the universe is not only revolving around florida and your catch shares.
There is a very limited commercial take in NC and VA and there is no take in Federal Water per GWB's Executive order designating it as a gamefish. Redfish are availbale on many menus as there is also a budding aquaculture fishery for them.
The value of redfish as a gamefish was seen to far outweight the value of it as a commercial commodity. I beleive the same is true for shallow water groupers and will push for the same type of protection for them.
Now since it is obvious you are incapable of holding an adult conversation with out stupid comments such as "You pack more shizz than a honey wagon", may be you rtime woudl be better spent on the SOFA Forum where everybody there will just eat up everything you say.
I have been accused of lying and now I am full of shizz????
But your neither you nor Screen Name has provided details of those lies or shizz....which means you have run our of arguments....
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If you're going to make a push to include the loss from by-catch/kill on the commercial side of the equation, "fairness" dictates you should make a push to include the loss on the rec side of the equation as well. Get ready for a shock if/when you're able to collect those numbers.
Game fish status for Grouper? Really???? :cookoo
-- Tug McGraw on getting a raise
Get Down Fishing Charters - Port Canaveral, Florida
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Abraham Lincoln
X2
While I don't see it happening, I would be curious to hear your (Tim's) take on the discussion.
Rob
Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
With a few exceptions, we used to have common ground on this site with the commercial fishermen as we all knew the real battle was against the environmental influence that has taken over the councils. Lately, it seems as if it has turned into a Rec vs Comm battle and we've lost focus on the real issue. A similar thing happened in the inshore fishery only the factions were the catch and release guides vs those who wanted to take a fish home for dinner. All the changes that were lobbied for and achieved by the eppaulette-wearing do-gooders in the Snook fishery for example, left a bad taste in my (and many others) mouth. I have not purchased a snook stamp since and traded in my IRL license plate to boot.
I think we need to focus on the real battle and re-take control of our councils from the eco-freaks. We need all the cooperation we can get from other fishermen whether they be recs, comms or guides. None of us will win if we continue to divide our ranks.
-- Tug McGraw on getting a raise
Get Down Fishing Charters - Port Canaveral, Florida
I absolutely agree that for a long time we did have common ground and tried to stand as fishermen against the onslaught from Enviros and regualtors. I used to take a lot of crap form my defense of the commercial sector, but alas 2012 is not 2000 or 2004.
THe environment of cooperation has been polluted by enivros and regulators with CS and IFQ, which now have every man for himself. Heck it is even filtering in to the recreational sector with talk of sector seperation. Where once charter captain and recreational angler stood with locked arms, we now see many playing both sides of the fence, just so they can be on the right side.
This is exactly how the council and enviros had hoped it woudl play out.
They enticed the commercials away with hopes of a Share of the fishery and year round fishing (which I might add can be taken away at any time)
They are enticing the for hire sector away with a promise of a dedicated share of the recreational allocation.
So as these others weaken to the pressure and fail to stand up for what is right, how do you expect the TRUE recreational fishermen to react. As the others abondoned ship, it is now up to us to look out for our best interest, which I might add is almost always in the fishery's best interest.
So now I stand to say: A fishery that is being over fished or is undergoing overfishing, should have all commercial use eliminated until rebuilt.
If it appears that rebuilding can only be done wilthout large scale commercial pressure then the fishery shoudl be declared a gamefish, or boutique fishery with limited commercial take by tended gear with strict trip limits.
How this is crazy...I will wait for you to point that out to me, hopefully with more than an emoticon.
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I don't think you're crazy. I think the idea of dividing our ranks is crazy. I've already said my peace above and still don't agree with you on this one. Not much more I can add really. :shrug
edit:
I see your point about the enviro crowd corrupting our ranks with CS, sector separation, etc. They tried hard to shove CS down our throats in the SE N. Atlantic and we (for now at least) successfully staved them off. This was an effort that had support from recs, comms and the charter-for hire crowd. With very few exceptions, NO ONE wanted them over here. Given that you already have CS in the GOM and sector separation is looming on the horizon, perhaps this thread is more appropriate as a "GOM" action alert. If that's what you guys really and truly want over there, then whatever I guess. Please don't infect that logic into the SE N. Atlantic crowd though. We all get along pretty well over here.
-- Tug McGraw on getting a raise
Get Down Fishing Charters - Port Canaveral, Florida
We want managers to recognize that we (recreational anglers) are more about the opportunity to fish, than about how many pounds we can keep and that we (recreational anglers) shoudl be managed in an apples to apples method and not the current method of setting a TAC in pounds but the limits per person per trip in numbers.
It is akin to saying that a commercial can only have 5000 pounds, but he has a bag limit of 1000 fish and so he catchs 1000 fish and heads to the dock only to be fined because his fish averaged 5.25 pounds a piece and not 5.
I have been screaming at the top of my lungs that this method (applied only to the recreational sector) has skewed the landings and data and resulted in the chaos and draconian measures we see today.
In 2010 and 2011 combined recreational anglers caught fewer ARS than any any year on record, yet we exceeded our TAC.....
Either manage us by pounds or numbers, but do not mix.
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
Tim... Naturally, since I'm affected by both SA and GoM, I follow both pretty close.
When the idea of CS first came to the Gulf, it was only pushed by a "few". Now you have CS for all in the Gulf and yet there are still only a "few" that wanted it.
Now there's a "few" Charter guys that want Sector Separation. Oddly, some of those "few" also have a stake in the Comm CS side. For those "few", there is the NGO backing with LOTS of influence and money.
If you're going to say make it a "Gulf Action Item", that would be turning a blind eye to what is really going on. Several countries in Europe watched their neighbors fall to Germany in hopes that they'd stop at the border. Some even signed treaties with the Germans and then were surprised as they were invaded. And I use the German WWII analogies only because they show historically what happens when an idea is drawn up and not resisted.
CS, Sector Separation, etc.... Is not a Fisheries Management Tool. They are Fishermen Management Tools. They are designed to take the ability to harvest from one set of fishermen and give it to another, there-by lowering the number of fishermen in the fishery.
In the South Atlantic, there is a Major Push to bring CS into our fishery. Yes, there is also resistance. Just as there was in the Gulf. I know of 2
Pro-CS groups that have formed already...and their membership is growing. These are the fishermen and the fish houses that buy the fish.
I hope you aren't sitting around thinking that CS has been defeated in the SA. I can assure you...it hasn't. A slight delay, yes. But the forces are building and getting more diverse. Members of EDF and the SA Council (staff) have broken off into splinter groups to advance the effort. There are now members of several of the APs that have formed Pro-CS groups.
It is becoming a "Land Grab"....just like we saw happen in the Gulf.
There have even been members of the APs advocating closing off SA Charter/Head Boat permits being issued (new ones). Calling for a Moratorium. And for all the wrong reasons. They want to have some "value" added to their permits so that they can sell them when they leave the fishery.
When you look in the Gulf and see what happened (and is happening) there. Keep in mind the Guys up in NE, the guys in AK, etc... but don't think that it can't/won't happen in the SA.
The forces that push this "program", is counting the days till it makes a "blitz" type run in the SA.
When the Gulf Comms folded and fought each other for a chunk of the "shares", I understood that they had to do what they had to do. Now the Charter guys are walking that same path, resisting all the way...except "for a few".
SA is in the beginning stages right now of what the Gulf has already done.
We all know that the easiest way to repeat history is to simply ignore it.
It will be interesting to see the CS push in the SA after the Red Snapper assessment in 2013. There's no doubt in my military mind that CS will rear its ugly head as a "management tool" as they look to open RS in the SA again.
Rob
Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
Bob's point about lbs vs fish is a good one also. The comms have a good system in place to track the lbs of fish they catch and most of their limits are based on lbs. NOAA needs to fix the data collection system on the recreational side. I'd have no problem tracking recreational fish by lbs either as long as they develop a system that will do it without screwing us even more. On-water enforcement might be tricky as accurate weights can be tough to obtain on a rocking and rolling boat.
-- Tug McGraw on getting a raise
Get Down Fishing Charters - Port Canaveral, Florida
:beer
Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
X200
There is a push to develop nearly "real-time" fishery and fishery independent data as it relates to recreational fishing, it combines, survey methods, with some self-reporting.
But in the end, NMFS needs ot understand that if they want to manage bag limits by numbers, then they need to manage recretional catch limits by numbers.
It is not an over perposperous notion as they can say the 5 year average is xx pounds per fish, we want to limit them to 1.9 million fish and then you have it a system that works and can be transaparent.
Not a single person at NMFS has been able to explain why suddenly the average recreational ARS went from 4.56 pounds to 6.88 in one year? How was this measured? What was the sampling size? What time fo the year? and in what average depths? How is a 40% release mortality rate being dertermined?
These questions (and more) need to be answered long before they say a 40 day season.
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It is much easier for them to use their own made up numbers.
It's all about them making the numbers come out the way they have predetermined that they should.
There has been no REAL effort on the part of NOAA or NMFS to obtain REAL recreational catch data.
The money is being spent on catch shares.
Up next is the for hire sector with sector seperation and their catch shares and IFQ and then they will be silenced regarding bad data. When they have finsihed selling out the fishermene of America, it will be the recreationals on the chopping block.
Now I want everyone to remember those who have CS and IFQ(s) and how they tout how "their fish" are counted and that the data is solid.
Well too bad that is only half the management equation. What about the **** poor SEDAR and Stock Assessment.
Will your silence still be purchased when bad stock assessments begin to encroach upon your gifted allotment of fish? By allowing yourselves (and your silence) to be bought and paid for by NMFS and the Enviro_NGO(s), you have basically given up the fight for real fishery management and solid data on the fisheries and like so many cattle you are the managed.
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That is wholey untrue.
"Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick
"All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
I guarantee I alone spend more money fishing that any 5 commercial boats in any given year, and since there are WELL less than 300 commercial permits here in the gulf with any good IFQ's numbers, I think your statement is about as far off as it can be.
You want some numbers, ok.
The average cost for a mid 30 ft cc with triple engines to run to say 200 ft is about-
1000.00 for fuel / Per trip
200.00 Ice/ Bait/ Ect...
Just that by itself without food, tackle, Maint, ect.
I can name about 30 boats off the top of my head that make this run or longer at least 20 times per year, just in the Madeira beach area.... So
Just these 30 boats in this one pass spend 3/4 of a million dollars per year at local fuel docks, not to mention what they spend in the local tackle stores. Now add every pass to the south and north, and you can see the $$$$ spent on the rec side of things, now add the charter boats and what we spend. Commercial $ spent is not even close, not by a long shot.
Don't even get me started on the money spent (rec.) tournament fishing, it will boggle your mind for sure.
Lagerhead Fishing Team
Team Cabo Loco
1- 6 man raft repack- about 1000.00 per yr.
1- Batt for EPIRB- about 250.00 every 2 or 3 yrs, can't remember.
1- Flare kit (at F.I.S.H) the commercial kit is not 1 yr exp. but 300.00
Fire equip. maybe another 300.00 per yr.
Alot of $ for sure but not 5k
Lagerhead Fishing Team
Team Cabo Loco
First of all as a percentage of the total domestic catch it represents .08% of pounds and .41% of at the dock revenue.
Since domestic seafood makes up 16% of all seafood consumed we are talking about .0124% of all the seafood consumed in the US annually so trust me the countrywide econimc impact is far from devasting.
As for safety equip...this is expenses that EVERY Mariner incurs.
I buy flares every year, and epirb battery overy 24 mos, replace fire extenquishers and halon every year (pssst...it only cost about $1200).
Your exertion that coms spend more on Safety gear in 1 year than rec spend on fuel tackle and travel in several years, shows you really are not up to speed there are you.
Florida recreational anglers expenditures account for $4.5 Billion in annual expenditures, commercial fishing NATIONWIDE only accounts for $4.2 billion in dock sales annually. So you guys are spending $300 million more on safety gear than you are generating in revenue? Now there's a business model to follow.
I don't know where you got that talking point form, but it is as bogus as the we are feeding the world argument.
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First of all...how much did you pay the People of the US for THEIR Grouper and Snapper?
Your operating cost have nothing to do with investment in the resource, of which you have ZERO, NADA, ZIP, NOTHING.
And since we import 84% of all seafood and the total U.S. commerical fishing fleet's dock revenue each year accounts for less than the total annual recreational fishing expenditures from Florida alone (which accounts for about 20% of national expenditures) , which do you thik will do more harm to the economy; the loss of recreational fishing or commercial fishing?
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