How to offer more opportunities on Quota Hunts

JohnnyBandit

Been thinking a bit about this...

What if.....

Permit holders were required to do an electronic check in the afternoon prior to the start date of their hunt. Could be simple

Are you hunting Saturday = Yes/No

Are you hunting Sunday = Yes/No

Are you hunting Monday = Yes/No

IF the person awarded the permit does not check in. Their permit is void.

IF the person awarded the permit indicates they are only hunting one or some of the days of the quota hunt. The remaining available go into a redraw pool.

The permits that are voided because the awarded hunter failed to check in and the portions of a permit that will be unused because the awarded hunter is not going to be able to hunt all days of the hunt.... All go into a pool and then an electronic lottery occurs for the people that put  themselves on standby status for that hunt.....

The electronic lottery would be done the evening before the first day of the hunt.....

The distance a person is from a WMA should have zero bearing on qualifying for standby status.... Some people would drive 500 miles on the spur of the moment to get a chance to hunt a nice piece of property. Some people would not drive 50 miles... 

The technology is there to do all of this. Quite easily.....

People that were originally awarded the permit could get a notification to their phone the day prior, reminding them to check in with their status as far as hunt.  That would take the "I forgot to check in" out of the equation.  I get work alerts on my phone all day long. Through MS Teams, Whatsap, Text, MS Outlook, etc. It can be nauseating.... And some are pointless. But I read them because some are important and require a quick response...

The above would take care of people that intended to hunt but something came up. They started feeling sick towards the weekend, their spouse was nagging, work situation, family situation. etc...

One issue with this.... The quota permit, for deer and turkey, include the taking one animal per permit..... So if a permit holder checked in that he was only going to hunt Saturday But took a deer on that day.... Then the permit would no longer be valid...

I was not around for the transferable days.... I hunted private land...

The last two years when my health got to a point I decided to hunt again... I decided I would hunt public.... I really just want to be in the woods....  The few times I have hunted since 2021, it has been in non quota areas and idiots abound... I have not drawn squat in quota hunt.

All of this makes the idea of dropping 10k plus to get in a lease within 150 miles of my house, buying another camping trailer, etc sound more and more attractive.

wayvis

According to FWC 68.5% of deer hunters are satisfied or very satisfied with their hunting season statewide. Public land hunters are 63.9% satisfied or very satisfied. Until these numbers go down, I don't see a whole lot changing.
If you want more hunting on your local WMA then you and fellow hunters need to put in suggestions to get things changed. 

osprey11

In the transferable days.   Some places had a limit on deer.  Person checking the deer would write buck, doe,or hog only, on the permit in that situation.  I hunted many times under that restriction.  Was fine to get a chance to hunt a hard to draw area..

James243

I’d wager to say they still have a limit on deer- hidden down inside the numbers of permits issued and the system with which they issue them. It would be nice if they published that information so we could understand, but they would then be subjecting their decision making to more detailed criticism. 

N. Cook

The Quota Permit TAG looked at every way possible NOT to do away with TRANSFERABILITY.  However, the fact that about 35% of all permits were being mailed to 13% of the addresses was the major problem.  We all know the "gaming" was going on and people had several permits in their pockets at hard to get WMAs.  The GUEST PERMIT was added to the new program to help with the 'I like to hunt with family and friends" situation.  As time goes along the program has progressed where you can get a Guest Permit "on the spot" and on some WMAs where both the Guest and Permit Holder can take a deer.

The staff continues to look at the new technology for ways to decrease the "no shows:.

bowhunter4life

presence point button, only return a permit one time for the same area, and no preference point for a returned permit..👌

meateater

bowhunter4life said:

presence point button, only return a permit one time for the same area, and no preference point for a returned permit..👌

what bowhunter said        and limit redraws to 1 per customer          this would give everyone more opportunities and help with no shows/wasted permits        although im pretty sure fwc dont give 1 second of thought on no shows.

Pinman

N. Cook said:

The Quota Permit TAG looked at every way possible NOT to do away with TRANSFERABILITY.  However, the fact that about 35% of all permits were being mailed to 13% of the addresses was the major problem.  We all know the "gaming" was going on and people had several permits in their pockets at hard to get WMAs.  The GUEST PERMIT was added to the new program to help with the 'I like to hunt with family and friends" situation.  As time goes along the program has progressed where you can get a Guest Permit "on the spot" and on some WMAs where both the Guest and Permit Holder can take a deer.

The staff continues to look at the new technology for ways to decrease the "no shows:.

Whacha think about my idea Newton?

Big Mak

I guess I gotta get the **** outta Florida to hunt the way I want to hunt. This is insanity!

swampdog

Just a quick thought: how about a few standby permits for each area. If you feel lucky, you obtain one and go to the WMA the morning of the hunt. If there are no shows, you’re allowed to hunt. If the quota permit hunter comes later, they’re also allowed to hunt. I believe a few folks near the WMA (or elsewhere for that matter) would be able to hunt and the area/resource could handle the hunting pressure. If not, the quotas could be reduced in the next season. 

Just something else to mull over or consider.

Big Mak

swampdog said:

Just a quick thought: how about a few standby permits for each area. If you feel lucky, you obtain one and go to the WMA the morning of the hunt. If there are no shows, you’re allowed to hunt. If the quota permit hunter comes later, they’re also allowed to hunt. I believe a few folks near the WMA (or elsewhere for that matter) would be able to hunt and the area/resource could handle the hunting pressure. If not, the quotas could be reduced in the next season. 

Just something else to mull over or consider.

That's about the best idea I've heard so far. More show n go opportunity is the proper direction to take. 

meateater

N. Cook said:

The Quota Permit TAG looked at every way possible NOT to do away with TRANSFERABILITY.  However, the fact that about 35% of all permits were being mailed to 13% of the addresses was the major problem.  We all know the "gaming" was going on and people had several permits in their pockets at hard to get WMAs.  The GUEST PERMIT was added to the new program to help with the 'I like to hunt with family and friends" situation.  As time goes along the program has progressed where you can get a Guest Permit "on the spot" and on some WMAs where both the Guest and Permit Holder can take a deer.

The staff continues to look at the new technology for ways to decrease the "no shows:.

tell the staff of non hunters looking at new technology to decrease no shows to stop       BOWHUNTER4LIFE AND HOGGATOR ALREADY SOLVED IT.            and while were at it allow me to retort       if 35% of permits are going to 13% of addresses then 78% were being giving out shall we say evenly .permits should have always included a guest for safety reasons if its 1 deer per permit whats the difference if 1 or 2 guys hunt. most guys dont wanna sit around the campground,hunt, maybe drag a deer out all by themselves this dumb rule back then helped with the gaming problem.    fwc gave in to the minority back then and lost a ton of money that could have been used for many more important things then appeasing the 7 or 8 guys who bombarded the phone lines crying bout how they never get picked for dinner island.    if you really wanted to hunt back then you could     i got dozens and dozens of permits by sitting at entrance/exit of many wmas asking guys coming and going.   could you stop making excuses for others poor decisions. ill bet  the no shows were a lot less  back then and you would not have to wait 4 years to hunt a mediocre wma.  whats gonna be the excuse for making one of the last non quota archery wmas quota only    overcrowding   lies lies lies   picayune strand 70 % of the deer will never see a human being and die of old age if there lucky enough not to get eating by a cougar    so the campground gets crowded on the weekend so fwc answer is to screw hundreds of hunters totally      how bout making the campground bigger.   same with bear island turkey now quota only    they pile everyone into a corral they call a campground a few whiners complain bout crowds and fwcs answer is to screw everyone   mostly locals        so sick of excuses    i aint buying the bullspit.  

Pinman

Big Mak said:

swampdog said:

Just a quick thought: how about a few standby permits for each area. If you feel lucky, you obtain one and go to the WMA the morning of the hunt. If there are no shows, you’re allowed to hunt. If the quota permit hunter comes later, they’re also allowed to hunt. I believe a few folks near the WMA (or elsewhere for that matter) would be able to hunt and the area/resource could handle the hunting pressure. If not, the quotas could be reduced in the next season. 

Just something else to mull over or consider.

That's about the best idea I've heard so far. More show n go opportunity is the proper direction to take. 

Has to have a manned check station.....thus my idea....

Pinman

swampdog said:

Just a quick thought: how about a few standby permits for each area. If you feel lucky, you obtain one and go to the WMA the morning of the hunt. If there are no shows, you’re allowed to hunt. If the quota permit hunter comes later, they’re also allowed to hunt. I believe a few folks near the WMA (or elsewhere for that matter) would be able to hunt and the area/resource could handle the hunting pressure. If not, the quotas could be reduced in the next season. 

Just something else to mull over or consider.

Thats basically what I proposed!!!   

The problem is some areas dont have a manned check station and some that do the person doesnt show up until shooting time. 

So how do you get around this?.......see post number 1.

osprey11

N. Cook said:

The Quota Permit TAG looked at every way possible NOT to do away with TRANSFERABILITY.  However, the fact that about 35% of all permits were being mailed to 13% of the addresses was the major problem.  We all know the "gaming" was going on and people had several permits in their pockets at hard to get WMAs.  The GUEST PERMIT was added to the new program to help with the 'I like to hunt with family and friends" situation.  As time goes along the program has progressed where you can get a Guest Permit "on the spot" and on some WMAs where both the Guest and Permit Holder can take a deer.

The staff continues to look at the new technology for ways to decrease the "no shows:.

So Newton please tell me the percentage of quotas going to anti hunter organization members?   I bet the number is high!


On another note.   My local WMA dropped the WED quota permit this year.   Participation was almost double on WED vs SAT when quota is needed.    This system is horrible and hunters are losing opportunity because of it!

osprey11

And yeah Pinn that means they did go back to FCFS.   So much for looking foreward!

JohnnyBandit

osprey11 said:

N. Cook said:

The Quota Permit TAG looked at every way possible NOT to do away with TRANSFERABILITY.  However, the fact that about 35% of all permits were being mailed to 13% of the addresses was the major problem.  We all know the "gaming" was going on and people had several permits in their pockets at hard to get WMAs.  The GUEST PERMIT was added to the new program to help with the 'I like to hunt with family and friends" situation.  As time goes along the program has progressed where you can get a Guest Permit "on the spot" and on some WMAs where both the Guest and Permit Holder can take a deer.

The staff continues to look at the new technology for ways to decrease the "no shows:.

So Newton please tell me the percentage of quotas going to anti hunter organization members?   I bet the number is high!


On another note.   My local WMA dropped the WED quota permit this year.   Participation was almost double on WED vs SAT when quota is needed.    This system is horrible and hunters are losing opportunity because of it!

This is a good question!

But how is anyone going to  track that under the current system?

altuck

Question because I don't know.
Don't you have to have a license # to get a quota permit.?

bowhunter4life

altuck said:

Question because I don't know.
Don't you have to have a license # to get a quota permit.?

Yes, and a management area permit to apply.

Pinman

osprey11 said:

And yeah Pinn that means they did go back to FCFS.   So much for looking foreward!

What went back to FCFS? I dont know what you are referring to.

osprey11

Wednesdays at Guana.


I would look at customers that apply and get hunts that do not have a deer, archery permit, etc for needed for those hunts.

altuck

So, then the theory is that antihunters are buying a license and a WMA stamp
so, they can prevent someone else from getting a quota permit?

JohnnyBandit

altuck said:

So, then the theory is that antihunters are buying a license and a WMA stamp
so, they can prevent someone else from getting a quota permit?

That is the theory.... And it is plausible and does happen.....

But what I have seen in other aspects in my life..... PETA and the other hard core radical animal rights groups have millions of dollars... But they are not quick to use those funds at a grass roots level....

So based on history through my career and employment, hobbies and lifestyle. . It is not happening on a large scale....

Because the big groups are not going to filter down money to the minions on the street.... Although that does not mean that those minions are harmless... They are more likely to be extremely radical and resort to personal threats.

N. Cook

The anti hunter applying for permits was looked at.....no pattern could be found. The names and addresses showed most applicants had hunted and were shown as licensed over the years, and if a record, check station, was involved.  The TAG group were  hunters, and hunted WMAs and used the Quota system.  Lots of blood on the floor as the issue is a difficult one.  The limitations of the permitting software at the time was a problem for some of the more creative ideas.   That is why we need to look at the program again, several years later, as the software is advancing.  Not having check stations creates problems, but that is a tough issue due to costs and available people. I have no prejudices about how it is done, but we do need to decrease the 'no shows".  The only 'hard nose" position I took was the Guest Hunter permit.....The basic problems remain the capability of the soft ware and no check station operators.....

wayvis

I will say it again....the problem is too many quota areas and not enough hunts on quota areas. We have 5 or 6 million acres in the WMA system, and we only have around 122,000 deer hunters of which 47% hunt deer on public land. So there are about 57,000 hunters that hunt public land. Using 4 million acres  gives 70 acres per deer hunter; if all were to hunt on the same day; which would never happen. The point is we have plenty of public land if more of it was open more of the time to hunting. There are many reasons given not to have more hunting on WMAs; such as other users, don't want to harvest too many deer, provide a quality hunting experience ect. Now that we have limits, antler restrictions, and reporting system many of the reasons don't hold water. On many WMAs other users are allowed to use the area when hunts are held, so the excuse of other users needing to use the area doesn't hold water on many WMAs.
The only way this is going to change is if FWC will form a group ( tag) just for public land hunting.

JohnnyBandit

wayvis said:

I will say it again....the problem is too many quota areas and not enough hunts on quota areas. We have 5 or 6 million acres in the WMA system, and we only have around 122,000 deer hunters of which 47% hunt deer on public land. So there are about 57,000 hunters that hunt public land. Using 4 million acres  gives 70 acres per deer hunter; if all were to hunt on the same day; which would never happen. The point is we have plenty of public land if more of it was open more of the time to hunting. There are many reasons given not to have more hunting on WMAs; such as other users, don't want to harvest too many deer, provide a quality hunting experience ect. Now that we have limits, antler restrictions, and reporting system many of the reasons don't hold water. On many WMAs other users are allowed to use the area when hunts are held, so the excuse of other users needing to use the area doesn't hold water on many WMAs.
The only way this is going to change is if FWC will form a group ( tag) just for public land hunting.

I for one would like to know where you got your numbers... I am not calling you out... But am curious..

Because the most recent figures I find.... There are about 190,000 licensed hunters in Florida...

And we all know that Florida's population is not spread out evenly....

There are just shy of 22 million people in Florida....  and a bit over 45 percent live south of State Road 70

So Roughly 85 thousand licensed hunters live below state road 70.....

Ironically or maybe not.... The demographics of the vocal members on this discussion largely live south of SR 70.....

So the discussion is not about how much land is in the state... The discussion is how much land available in South Florida....

wayvis

The number I used are for the number of Deer hunters in the state. They come from the 21-22 Deer Harvest Servey. 

"NUMBER OF HUNTERS, HARVEST, AND TOTAL HUNTER DAYS
 There were an estimated 122,312 deer hunters in Florida during the 2021‐2022 season, slightly up from the 106,926 who hunted deer in 2020‐2021.  

 In this year’s survey, the estimated statewide deer harvest was 74,098, compared to 65,707 in the previous year.

 Overall, deer hunters spent 2.151 million days hunting deer in Florida in the 2021‐2022 season."

  I'm also curious as to where you got that there are about 85,000 hunter south of SR70?

Sorry I didn't know that the quota issue is just a south Fl. thing. 

wayvis

Even if you have 85,000 hunters in south Fl. only 7,398 hunted deer in Zone A according to to the 21-22 deer survey.

JohnnyBandit

wayvis said:

The number I used are for the number of Deer hunters in the state. They come from the 21-22 Deer Harvest Servey. 

"NUMBER OF HUNTERS, HARVEST, AND TOTAL HUNTER DAYS
 There were an estimated 122,312 deer hunters in Florida during the 2021‐2022 season, slightly up from the 106,926 who hunted deer in 2020‐2021.  

 In this year’s survey, the estimated statewide deer harvest was 74,098, compared to 65,707 in the previous year.

 Overall, deer hunters spent 2.151 million days hunting deer in Florida in the 2021‐2022 season."

  I'm also curious as to where you got that there are about 85,000 hunter south of SR70?

Sorry I didn't know that the quota issue is just a south Fl. thing. 

I just estimated using Statistics.... .

It is not perfect but is statistically viable and defensible given the available numbers.

About 190,000 resident hunting licenses issued....

Total population of Florida.

Total residents south of SR 70.

Then Statistically it is simple math...

About 22 million people in Florida....  A little shy of ten million people live south of SR 70... That figure is easy to find via census data.. because county by county data....

So about 45 percent of the population of Florida lives below State Road 70....   And just a side note. that gels well with the data from the industry I am in....

So we have 190k license holders so here goes...

190k hunting licenses X 45% = 85,500 hunters that live south of SR 70....

I tried to find the number of deer permits sold in Florida... if you can provide data on deer permits which will differ some from total licenses... Please provide....

Your assumption.... If your data is correct.... is that this is a deer hunting issue... it is not.... In addition to Deer Quota hunts, there are turkey, duck, dove and feral hog quota hunts... 

So.... it is an all inclusive hunting issue....

By the way..... I have no idea where you came up with this... That four million acres thing? Just taking the available hunting land on National Forests and other Federal Lands... NWR, NWP, and Military property.... And State Forests.. You are over 4 million acres.... Without counting  Most of the actual state WMAs, etc

Heck some counties offer hunting opportunities not listed on state or federal lands... Manatee County alone offers hunts on 21k acres via Lottery

wayvis

JohnnyBandit said:

wayvis said:

The number I used are for the number of Deer hunters in the state. They come from the 21-22 Deer Harvest Servey. 

"NUMBER OF HUNTERS, HARVEST, AND TOTAL HUNTER DAYS
 There were an estimated 122,312 deer hunters in Florida during the 2021‐2022 season, slightly up from the 106,926 who hunted deer in 2020‐2021.  

 In this year’s survey, the estimated statewide deer harvest was 74,098, compared to 65,707 in the previous year.

 Overall, deer hunters spent 2.151 million days hunting deer in Florida in the 2021‐2022 season."

  I'm also curious as to where you got that there are about 85,000 hunter south of SR70?

Sorry I didn't know that the quota issue is just a south Fl. thing. 

I just estimated using Statistics.... .

It is not perfect but is statistically viable and defensible given the available numbers.

About 190,000 resident hunting licenses issued....

Total population of Florida.

Total residents south of SR 70.

Then Statistically it is simple math...

About 22 million people in Florida....  A little shy of ten million people live south of SR 70... That figure is easy to find via census data.. because county by county data....

So about 45 percent of the population of Florida lives below State Road 70....   And just a side note. that gels well with the data from the industry I am in....

So we have 190k license holders so here goes...

190k hunting licenses X 45% = 85,500 hunters that live south of SR 70....

I tried to find the number of deer permits sold in Florida... if you can provide data on deer permits which will differ some from total licenses... Please provide....

Your assumption.... If your data is correct.... is that this is a deer hunting issue... it is not.... In addition to Deer Quota hunts, there are turkey, duck, dove and feral hog quota hunts... 

So.... it is an all inclusive hunting issue....

By the way..... I have no idea where you came up with this... That four million acres thing? Just taking the available hunting land on National Forests and other Federal Lands... NWR, NWP, and Military property.... And State Forests.. You are over 4 million acres.... Without counting  Most of the actual state WMAs, etc

Heck some counties offer hunting opportunities not listed on state or federal lands... Manatee County alone offers hunts on 21k acres via Lottery

Johnny I think you missed the whole point of my post. That is, we have too many quota hunts and we need an advisor group like the deer management group (TAG) to work on just WMA issues.

 The point I was trying to make with the deer report data is that we have plenty of public land, were just not given enough days to use it; be it deer, turkey, dove or whatever you like to hunt. I never said this is just a deer hunting issue.

The 4 million acres is just a conservate guess, because not all WMAs allow deer hunting. I'm aware that there is more public land than 4 million acres. According to the FWC we have over 6 million acres, and I quote......
"This system includes more than 6 million acres of land established as WMAs or Wildlife and Environmental Areas (WEAs), which include Mitigation Parks."

I would caution you on using your simple way of figuring out on many hunters live south of SR70. Most of the data that I read suggests that more hunters live in small towns and rural areas.

The number of deer permit sold is not going to give you the number of deer hunters, because of hunters over 65 and under 16. So, no I do not have the number of deer permits sold.