Ethanol Lobbyists vs. Florida Residents -Who will win?

fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
In follow-up to my recent post at "Ethanol Repeal" thread here: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?28994-Ethanol-repeal-BILL&p=346106&posted=1#post346106
I feel obligated to make one last ditch effort to get Florida residents interested in this important pending legislation that could reclaim your right to buy ethanol-free E0 fuel...
Perhaps some are unaware that both FL HB 4013 and SB 238 were postponed this week (December 7th, 2011) - Since both bills are trying to repeal mandatory E10 ethanol blending laws enacted in Florida in 2008, I simply don't understand why Florida residents seem to be doing nothing...

Postponement of legislation often leads to its disappearance.

Those who encouraged postponement of HB 4013 and SB238 (they want E10 mandatory, not optional) include:
Ag Commissioner Adam Putnam, former Commissioner of Agriculture and Consumer Services Charles Bronson, Committee Chairwoman Nancy Detert, R-Venice, Rep. Michelle Rehwinkel Vasilinda, D-Tallahassee, and many others.
Bradley Krohn president of ethanol company called US EnviroFuels LLC already has a petition titled "Take Action and Spread the Word- Vote NO on HB 4013" http://biofuelschat.com/topics/set-record-straight-florida-hb-4013-vote
He started a petition (no to 4013) to maintain mandatory E10 in FL. Ethanol always wins b/c the pro-ethanol groups and lobbyists are very active and involved every single day, everywhere- They count on the public remaining clueless and uninvolved.

Support HB 4013 and SB 238 to repeal the requirement to have at least 9 percent ethanol in gasoline.

I believe you should start a petition to vote "Yes" and support the sponsors of HB 4013 Rep. Matt Gaetz of Fort Walton Beach and Sen. Greg Evers of Pensacola, and others...Kudos to the Marine Industries Association, and the very few other companies that took the time to speak-out in support of HB4013.

Don't let the ethanol industry and lobbyists tell you what type of fuel you must use. It's obvious that those who profit from ethanol, such as Bradley Krohn, have the resources, money and motivation to stop the repeal and will continue to force you to use more and more ethanol.

Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you don't need any more information from me right now, regarding pending ethanol laws in Florida.
I had hoped Florida would set a precedent to encourage all others to reclaim their right to CHOOSE to buy ethanol-free gasoline.
For the past 3 years we've received the highest number of contaminated E10 gas reports from the state of Florida; (EG. Illegally over blended above 10% and water contamination) -
This is why we sell so many fuel test kits in Florida - Since ethanol in gas profits my company I guess I'm on the wrong side of the fence diligently trying to advocate for engine owners who want and need E0 gasoline. Is it time for me to give-up? I'm not sure...But I am very disappointed and frustrated by all the Florida residents that complain to me about ethanol, but do nothing to encourage (political) change.

All states have (ethanol) laws that need to be reviewed and rewritten, but Florida and the other handful of "mandatory ethanol" states have the most restrictive laws, which IMO go against everything consumer protection laws and common sense support.
The EPA and federal government do NOT mandate E10 in the Renewable Fuel Standards or EISA - So why does Florida RFS mandate E10?
If you don't try to protect your rights now, I expect you will be one of the first states to sell E15 and higher blends, which are NOT approved or warranted by all conventional engine manufacturers.
(Only flex-fuel engines that run on E85 are warranted for gas that contains above 10% ethanol).
Doesn't matter that the EPA approved E15 for 2001 and newer autos - The engine manufacturers still do not, (fuel system repairs are not covered under warranty if you use gas above 10%).

If you do nothing to support HB 4013 and 238 it would be unfair to speak-out against the EPA -
Each individual state decides and controls how renewable fuels (ethanol and biofuel) will be sold.

It will cost you much more later if you don't do something now - Good Luck!

Do you support REPEAL of FL mandatory E10 laws (HB4013 and SB238)? 38 votes

Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
100%
Mango MansaltybradavmechCaptBobBryantEggsuckindogPennFishthinfisherFrankee The Yankeecadmanm9000sailfish2keylargo359MadpoodleshadowwalkerSaltyGatorO.SEA.DlilwoodycamgcichessiePothole 38 votes
No - All gas should contain 9% or higher ethanol
0%
«1

Replies

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 969 Officer
    I go out of my way to buy non-ethanol gas

    The week ethanol fuel hit Florida, I was in the middle of a 1400 mile road trip
    up one coast, back down the other
    I suffered a 13% decrease in fuel economy with the E10
    Got it back when I switched to straight fuel
    I gladly pay 4 or 5% more for straight gas to avoid a 13%+ decrease with E10

    Screw E10
  • onthefiftyonthefifty Posts: 4,070 Captain
    Indigo wrote: »
    I go out of my way to buy non-ethanol gas

    The week ethanol fuel hit Florida, I was in the middle of a 1400 mile road trip
    up one coast, back down the other
    I suffered a 13% decrease in fuel economy with the E10
    Got it back when I switched to straight fuel
    I gladly pay 4 or 5% more for straight gas to avoid a 13%+ decrease with E10

    Screw E10

    I'm sorry to hear that your little Prius suffered a 13% decrease in mileage. :downtwinkles:
  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 26,975 AG
    While Florida suffers through high unemployment, record foreclosures and bankruptcies, Florida Republicans want to bring back dwarf tossing, drug tests for government benefits and ethanol free gas. Yet, Florida voters continue to vote these idiots into office and then continue to wonder what's wrong with Florida.

    Even if this bill passes, where will service stations get ethanol free gas?

    Idiots.
    Vote for the other candidate
  • onthefiftyonthefifty Posts: 4,070 Captain
    Mister-Jr wrote: »
    While Florida suffers through high unemployment, record foreclosures and bankruptcies, Florida Republicans want to bring back dwarf tossing, drug tests for government benefits and ethanol free gas. Yet, Florida voters continue to vote these idiots into office and then continue to wonder what's wrong with Florida.

    Even if this bill passes, where will service stations get ethanol free gas?

    Idiots.

    Lil Debbie called... Your check is ready. She also mentioned a "furry little bonus" what is that?
  • CaptTaterCaptTater Posts: 20,096 AG
    Mister-Jr wrote: »
    While Florida suffers through high unemployment, record foreclosures and bankruptcies, Florida Republicans want to bring back dwarf tossing, drug tests for government benefits and ethanol free gas. Yet, Florida voters continue to vote these idiots into office and then continue to wonder what's wrong with Florida.

    Even if this bill passes, where will service stations get ethanol free gas?

    Idiots.
    all gas is ethanol free until they mix it for delivery. its pure gas in pipelines and trains because it's too corrosive for them... Yet they think it's okay for us. It makes a 30% mileage difference in my boat. It must make me a little underpowered.
    I did not read the story but if you take tax payers money maybe you should be held to some standards.-Cyclist
    when we say the same thing about welfare recipients, you cry like a wounded buffalo Sopchoppy
    It's their money, they spend it how they like. Truth and honesty have nothing to do with it. - Mr Jr
    "“A radical is one who advocates sweeping changes in the existing laws and methods of government.” "
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,013 AG
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    While the EPA does not require 10% mixture by law, they do require a percentage of all fuel sold be renewable fuels. This requirement can only be met with E10. The reversal of the E10 requirement in Florida will make it legal for the few stations selling non ethanol fuel sell it for vehicle use legally, it will not bring back non ethanol fuel in the majority of stations. Ethanol is also the cheapest alternative for MTBE which is illegal in most states.

    From the EPA renewable fuels web page:

    The RFS program was created under the Energy Policy Act (EPAct) of 2005, and established the first renewable fuel volume mandate in the United States. As required under EPAct, the original RFS program (RFS1) required 7.5 billion gallons of renewable- fuel to be blended into gasoline by 2012.

    Under the Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007, the RFS program was expanded in several key ways:

    EISA expanded the RFS program to include diesel, in addition to gasoline;
    EISA increased the volume of renewable fuel required to be blended into transportation fuel from 9 billion gallons in 2008 to 36 billion gallons by 2022;
    EISA established new categories of renewable fuel, and set separate volume requirements for each one.
    EISA required EPA to apply lifecycle greenhouse gas performance threshold standards to ensure that each category of renewable fuel emits fewer greenhouse gases than the petroleum fuel it replaces.

    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/renewablefuels/index.htm

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • WaterEngineerWaterEngineer Posts: 24,414 AG
    No corn in my gas.
    Which ever one(s) of you little boys complained about quotes in the signature should be ashamed of yourself. :blowkiss

    Instead of complaining to the moderators you should just quit playing on this board.
  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 26,975 AG
    CaptTater wrote: »
    all gas is ethanol free until they mix it for delivery. its pure gas in pipelines and trains because it's too corrosive for them... Yet they think it's okay for us. It makes a 30% mileage difference in my boat. It must make me a little underpowered.

    So what? It's the federal standard and a bunch of morons in Tallahasse are not going to change that. Perhaps they should try and do something constructive.

    Idiots.
    Vote for the other candidate
  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 19,207 AG
    Repeal EISA...
  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    cadman wrote: »
    While the EPA does not require 10% mixture by law, they do require a percentage of all fuel sold be renewable fuels. This requirement can only be met with E10...Ethanol is also the cheapest alternative for MTBE which is illegal in most states. ..
    Wrong - E85, biodiesel and any other "renewable" fuel could and should meet the rising quotas; (BTW legislation already started to decrease RFS quotas since we've reached the "blend wall" in 2011).
    The Clean Air Act (1990) is very complex but applies primarily to cities with high pollution-
    The Clean Air Act requires use of oxygenated gasoline in areas where winter time carbon monoxide levels exceed federal air quality standards.
    MTBE was banned in most states long before Florida had mandatory E10 law. I don't think any FL towns or cities fall under the requirement -You can check here: http://epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b08006.pdf

    (I lived in FL until late 2007 and not 1 drop of E10 in Brevard and nearby counties) - In other words, FL does NOT require E10 for pollution and Clean Air Act oxygenation reasons...

    There is no valid legal reason (or federal requirement) that made Crist pass "Mandatory E10 law" in 2008-
    His primary motive probably was to profit ethanol industry and/or to make up for lack of alternative fuel use (E85) in FL.

    Trust me, if it was legal the ethanol lobbyists would have made the EPA include mandatory "E10" laws in some federal standard or act by now.

    Let me know specifically why you believe you should be REQUIRED and FORCED to buy conventional gas with 9-10% alcohol?

    E10 is not even classified as an alternative fuel -
    Better watch out or BRADLEY KROHN may get just want he wants in his very non-factual and misleading article 12/01 in Tampa Tribune:
    http://www2.tbo.com/news/opinion/2011/dec/01/meopino2-modernize-floridas-renewable-fuels-standa-ar-328563/
    and also here:
    Bradley Krohn: "Don't repeal Florida's Renewable Fuels Standard"
    http://www.gainesville.com/article/20111129/NEWS/111129515/1123/opinion?p=1&tc=pg

    Everytime somebody tries to reign-back ethanol, the ethanol industry leaders and lobbyists campaign so intensely that most forget about the real issues and truth... Or simply do nothing, and ethanol wins again...

    Screwing up the E85 plan and introduction of other renewable fuels over past decade, does not justify mandating E10.
  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    Just a quick reminder/summary that recent bills that were postponed, are intended to repeal FL mandatory E10 laws (RFS).


    A House version of the proposal (HB 4013) was approved Tuesday 12/6 by the Energy & Utilities Subcommittee...
    Evers agreed to postpone his bill (SB 238) to continue to work on a compromise measure the next day Wednesday 12/7.

    Bill sponsor Sen. Greg Evers, R-Baker, said blended gasoline damages boat motors, and other engines, and said the requirement has been difficult for gas stations....Evers agreed to pull his bill (SB 238) back to continue to work on a compromise measure...

    State Representative Matt Gaetz of Destin is leading the charge. He says drivers should be allowed to choose what kind of fuel they want.
    “Consumers ought to be empowered to make the choice about what kind of gas they want in their automobile. If ethanol works, if it’s something that can ultimately reduce dependence on foreign oil I’m all for it, but I think the choice ought to belong to the consumer.” ...
    Gaetz argued that the corn-based biofuel causes problems in boats, lawn mowers and old cars, is an efficient net consumer of energy and a unfair government mandate. He compared it to tacos.
    "Businesses particularly love stability when the government mandates that the public buy that business's products,'' he said. "If I sold tacos for a living, I would really like an environment where the government forced everyone to eat three tacos a day."


    Info I have included here are from several news sources including:
    http://www.wjhg.com/home/headlines/Ethanol_Bill__135125228.html
    http://southeastagnet.com/2011/12/07/florida-ethanol-bill-stalls-in-senate-committee/
    http://miamiherald.typepad.com

    Follow HB 4013 and S238 here:
    Florida House of Representatives:
    http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=47084
    Florida Senate:
    http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2012/4013
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 969 Officer
    onthefifty wrote: »
    I'm sorry to hear that your little Prius suffered a 13% decrease in mileage. :downtwinkles:

    I can see that once again you have zero input on the subject matter.....

    Of course once I saw your photo on your Bio,
    We know why.....

    unicycle_clown.jpg
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,013 AG
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    Ethanol is blended in almost all fuels in every state, some at levels below E-10. 10% ethanol is not needed for the MTBE replacement. I think that is around 1% to 2%. When I checked the puregas.org website they have less than 5000 stations listed that sell ethanol free gas and the state of Alaska as the only state with 100% ethanol free fuel.

    We currently use 13 billion gallons per year and the requirement is 36 billion by 2022. That is three times the current volume. It is not known that the ethanol companies can even produce that much volume by then, but the 36 billion can not be met by the limited use of E-85. I don't know that it can be met with just E-10. I think E-15 will be the standard by 2022.

    I am in favor of repealing the law requiring a mandatory E-10 in Florida. It will make it legal and easier for the few independents that sell non-ethanol fuel. You misunderstand my comments. I do not believe that repealing the mandatory law will do anything to change the availability of E-10 at most branded stations. The majors are not going back to non-ethanol fuels, the demand is not significant enough.

    Edit: for the travelers, not every state requires that gas pumps be labeled that the fuel contains ethanol, unless you verify it by asking the station management, you may get ethanol fuel and not know it.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 14,254 AG
    Heck I grow the stuff (corn) and I will not allow it in my gas. I keep my above ground tank filled with the good stuff. Except for when I have to refill on the road and cant help it I NEVER buy the junk.
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,072 AG
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    Mister-Jr wrote: »
    While Florida suffers through high unemployment, record foreclosures and bankruptcies, Florida Republicans want to bring back dwarf tossing, drug tests for government benefits and ethanol free gas. Yet, Florida voters continue to vote these idiots into office and then continue to wonder what's wrong with Florida.

    Even if this bill passes, where will service stations get ethanol free gas?

    Idiots.

    They will get it from the same place they get their gas now.
    For your info, All gasoline is shipped here(Fla) either tanker or pipeline. All ethanol is railed in. The ethanol is blended into the gas upon loading onto the delivery truck. How do I know? I haul gas for a living. I can go into more detail if you like.
    Here in the panhandle we get non-ethanol gas, but it is hauled in from Georgia.

    Be careful throwing the "idiot" label around until you get your facts straight. Have a nice day.
    2013 Pathfinder 22 TE , 150 Yamaha,
  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    cadman wrote: »
    Ethanol is blended in almost all fuels in every state, some at levels below E-10. (MORE OFTEN E10 IS BLENDED ABOVE, NOT BELOW 10% thanks to ethanol blending tax credits and...) 10% ethanol is not needed for the MTBE replacement. (TRUE) I think that is around 1% to 2%. When I checked the puregas.org website they have less than 5000 stations listed that sell ethanol free gas and the state of Alaska as the only state with 100% ethanol free fuel.
    (PURE-GAS is A SITE STARTED IN 2009 BY A PRIVATE CITIZEN ,IT DOES NOT REPRESENT ALL E0 STATIONS, YES, THEY HAVE DISAPPEARED RAPIDLY OVER PAST 2-3 YEARS)
    We currently use 13 billion gallons per year and the requirement is 36 billion by 2022. That is three times the current volume. It is not known that the ethanol companies can even produce that much volume by then, but the 36 billion can not be met by the limited use of E-85. I don't know that it can be met with just E-10. I think E-15 will be the standard by 2022. (E15 WILL NEVER BE THE STANDARD -SINCE MANUFACTURERS ONLY APPROVE AND WARRANTY UP TO 10% IN NON-FLEX-FUEL ENGINES)
    I am in favor of repealing the law requiring a mandatory E-10 in Florida. It will make it legal and easier for the few independents that sell non-ethanol fuel. You misunderstand my comments. I do not believe that repealing the mandatory law will do anything to change the availability of E-10 at most branded stations. The majors are not going back to non-ethanol fuels, the demand is not significant enough.

    Edit: for the travelers, not every state requires that gas pumps be labeled that the fuel contains ethanol, unless you verify it by asking the station management, you may get ethanol fuel and not know it.
    VIEW STATE-BY-STATE PUMP LABELING GUIDE HERE: http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html

    Florida residents and the American public have had multiple opportunities to reign-back ethanol in conventional gas (E10) over the past decade...
    Most often the voting public is not even aware of these opportunities that have been offered to them.
    The largest states such as Florida and California will set the tone for the future. My purpose of this thread was to encourage FL voters to get more involved in URGENT and IMPORTANT ethanol issues.

    California limited ethanol to 5.7% in conventional fuel until 2010 - they raised it to 10% b/c all other states had that limit. CA probably has blended ethanol in conventional gas longer than any other state (before the Federal rfs AND eisa)- California no longer supports ethanol as a solution to environmental and fuel dependency issues...
    Florida did almost nothing to focus on renewable energy until 2008, when Governor Crist mandated (forced) E10 on you. Prior to 2008, E10 was only used in cities like Tallahassee and Miami.

    The growth of ethanol in gas, has been challenged multiple times during 2011 - Too many reasons and pending legislation to list here -but here are 3 examples that exemplify what is really going on right now:
    (Florida - IMO now is the perfect time to challenge E10 and reclaim your right to choose the most appropriate gas type for your engines- Please also see my comments above capitalized).
    1. H.R.3098 - Renewable Fuel Standard Elimination Act - and
    and H.R.3097 Renewable Fuel Standard Flexibility Act, 112th Congress, Sponsor: Rep. Robert Goodlatte [R, VA-6]
    Email your members of Congress from here:
    http://www.opencongress.org/contact_congress_letters/new?bill=112-h3097&position=support

    2. "Bipartisan, Bicameral Legislation Introduced to Address Ethanol Mandate Concerns" May 26, 2011 Press Release at US Senate Committee
    on Environment and Public Works.
    The Fuel Feedstock Freedom Act would allow fuel markets to respond to consumer demand for ethanol free gasoline where it exists.
    3. "Battle to implement E15 waiver continues" Excerpt from article in Ethanol Producer Magazine Dec. 11th, 2011: "Letters for and against an amendment that would prevent the U.S. EPA from using appropriated funds to implement the E15 waiver have recently been sent to leadership of the U.S. House of Representatives and Senate Appropriations Committees.
    It started Dec. 7, (2011) with a letter authored by Reps. John Sullivan, R-Okla., Gary Peters, D-Mich., and 73 of their colleagues, requesting that the House Appropriations Committee include an amendment in the fiscal year 2012 omnibus appropriations..."
  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    New here, need help:
    I prefer to change font color for emphasis instead of CAPITALS or bold-
    I can't figure out how to change black font to colors, any suggestions ot tips?
    Thanks- Gail
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,013 AG
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    Federal RFS is being challenged too-See H.R. 3097 and 3098

    That would be a good thing. It appears though, if you have been following those bills, that they are dying in committee.

    The E-15 mandate is going to be the next big fight, I think. The renewable fuels group is already pushing for E-15. I think they have support of the oil companies. The auto manufacturers and everyone else is against it.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 26,975 AG
    My purpose of this thread was to encourage FL voters to get more involved in URGENT and IMPORTANT ethanol issues.

    Once again, Florida's ecomonic issues, like the rest of the country, are far more important than this URGENT and IMPORTANT issue. If someone can explain how this will create more Florida jobs I am willing to listen, but until then having the crime syndicate we call the Florida Legisture spend time on this issue is useless.
    Vote for the other candidate
  • beach_tradebeach_trade Posts: 2,040 Captain
    Ethanol is good. George Bush said it would help us achieve energy independence and if George likes it so do I.

    Also ethanol helped me put several hundred into the economy due to all the filters and gaskets I had to buy from boats.net to keep my finicky HPDI's running.

    See, George was right. I saved gas because I was down for much of a year chasing repeated ethanol related fuel issues when I would have burned over a thousand gallons of gas had my boat been running right.

    And I supported boats.net, a local business, so clearly ethanol is good. What are you guys complaining about?
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,072 AG
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    Ethanol is good. George Bush said it would help us achieve energy independence and if George likes it so do I.

    Also ethanol helped me put several hundred into the economy due to all the filters and gaskets I had to buy from boats.net to keep my finicky HPDI's running.

    See, George was right. I saved gas because I was down for much of a year chasing repeated ethanol related fuel issues when I would have burned over a thousand gallons of gas had my boat been running right.

    And I supported boats.net, a local business, so clearly ethanol is good. What are you guys complaining about?

    And according to Mister-jr you are doing more important things like stimulating the economy by buying all those filters, repairing your engines, spreading your wealth to all those mechanics and helping those poor starving executives at ADM, Cargill and ConAgra!!
    2013 Pathfinder 22 TE , 150 Yamaha,
  • Michael RepperMichael Repper Posts: 4,897 Officer
    Corn is the most heavily subsidized crop in the US. Farmers are paid by the government subsidies to grow corn even though we don't need more corn for food. Most of it isn't even table corn anyway, but corn fit for industrial processing.

    Wow I just read a bit about ethanol subsidies:

    "Producers also benefit from a federal subsidy of 51 cents per gallon, additional state subsidies, and federal crop subsidies that can bring the total to 85 cents per gallon or more.[16] (US corn-ethanol producers are also shielded from competition from cheaper Brazilian sugarcane-ethanol by a 54-cent-per-gallon tariff"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_States

    540px-United_States_farm_subsidies_%28source_Congressional_Budget_Office%29.svg.png

    Gotta love that the US Government pays farmers to grow Tobacco!
  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    cadman wrote: »
    That would be a good thing. It appears though, if you have been following those bills, that they are dying in committee.

    The E-15 mandate is going to be the next big fight, I think. The renewable fuels group is already pushing for E-15. I think they have support of the oil companies. The auto manufacturers and everyone else is against it.
    Those bills, like so many others, can or may "die"...But if they do, you probably will have nobody to blame but people like yourself ,who would rather complain and do nothing, instead of supporting those you've elected, that sometimes are really trying very hard to protect you and your possessions, health and...

    E15 is NOT a "mandate". E15 waiver was not approved to replace E10, but rather is intended to give you another "fuel choice" at the pump (to increase profits of the ethanol industry)...Since so many in FL have already bought fuel illegallly overblended at 15% or even higher, discussion regarding E15 waiver probably is irrelevant here and now.

    Some more "facts" on E15:
    The oil companies and petroleum industry do NOT support E15.
    API, NPRA + several auto (and other) engine manufacturers are concerned about engine damage caused by ethanol, and have already filed multiple lawsuits against the EPA attempting to rescind E15 approval...
    API= American Petroleum Institute.
    NPRA=National Petrochemical & Refiners Association

    November 9, 2010 - API filed a lawsuit with the Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit challenging the Environmental Protection Agency's E15 waiver decision...March 11th, 2011 - API along with nine food and livestock groups, filed another lawsuit challenging the U.S. EPA’s expanded approval for E15 use in vehicle models 2001 through 2006. NPRA filed a lawsuit in January 2011 -Listen here to NPRA president: http://www.eenews.net/tv/video_guide/1261?current_div=guide_even&page=3&sort_type=date

    E15 waiver is not important now or here -Even the EPA sent a formal memo on 11/15/2011 stating "E15 is not legal for sale" -View on EPA's website.

    You, the public, had a formal invitation from the EPA to send comments regarding E15 for about a year (before they approved it in 2010) -
    Most knew nothing about the E15 waiver which is why we (Fuel-Testers Company) had a petition on our website to make it easier for all to submit comments (objecting E15) to the EPA...

    Many do not follow (ethanol) legislation, both state and federal, even those laws that are trying to protect you, and reign back ethanol.
    That's the main reason I took the time here, to post info and poll on FL house bills currently pending -(Approved and than postponed last week).

    In the meantime you are forced in FL (mandatory) to use gas that "contains 9 to 10% ethanol" which lowers mpg, increases cost of gas, probably decreases the life of your engine and parts...and receives billions of dollars a year in (ethanol) tax credits and subsidies.

    ...But sadly people like Cadman will continue to do nothing, other than spread more confusion and non-factual info about ethanol and laws -Which gives the ethanol industry a wide open door to force more and more ethanol on you - So sad.

    Would not surprise me if FL bills 4013/238 died -But at least I'm trying (to educate those that have the power to do something NOW).

    The gasoline and ethanol industries affect much more than your engines - With a 50% dependency on foreign oil, some of which still comes from the Middle East and other countries that...I'll finish these thoughts another time...
  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    To Michael Repper who stated above "Corn is the most heavily subsidized crop in the US. Farmers are paid by the government subsidies to grow corn..."
    If you are concerned about ethanol subsidies I would look more at all the money you've paid to ethanol producers and gas companies (EG. Ethanol blending tax credit= 45 cents/gallon) - The farmers are not the ones getting unfairly rich from ethanol (Another one of those false ethanol rumors) -
    If ethanol money was going to Florida farmers I probably would not object to it as much - Did you know Florida has imported ethanol from the Carribean and Brazil?Despite Florida's rising unemployment rate and vast open farmland, perfect for growing corn and other grains, maybe even sugar, that could be used to domestically produce ethanol, your Governors past and present encouraged ethanol imports!
    (Louisiana opened the first sugarcane to ethanol plant, not Florida).

    Read:
    Ethanol Credits Have A Major Beneficiary In Big Oil Firms
    http://www.nationaljournal.com/daily/ethanol-credits-have-a-major-beneficiary-in-big-oil-firms-20100702
    "BP could stand to reap federal tax credits approaching $600 million this year for blending gasoline with corn-based ethanol, making the British oil and gas giant one of the largest beneficiaries of the 45 cents-per-gallon ethanol incentive.... roughly $5 billion-a-year ethanol (tax) credits..."
    AND
    Livestock farmers say ethanol eats too much corn KansasCity.com November 23rd, 2011
    "Livestock farmers are demanding a change in the nation's ethanol policy, claiming current rules could lead to spikes in meat prices and even shortages at supermarkets if corn growers have a bad year. About 5.9 billion bushels of corn were used for animal feed last year; 2.4 billion were exported; and about 4.9 billion were used for ethanol, up from about 630 million bushels in 2000, according to the National Corn Growers Association..."
    Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/23/3282013/livestock-farmers-say-ethanol.html#ixzz1fBQOkWks

    IMO, the "Food for Fuel" and "anti-farmer" ethanol debates are complex, often misleading, and not really worthy of extended discussion (now),
    especially since most have ignored these issues during the past 30+ years that we've subsidized the (ethanol) industry-
    I really like the farmers - If I have to subsidize ethanol, I would rather my money go to a US farmer, instead of foreign countires, or worse to Middle East petroleum companies...
    Any way, most farmers do not support "corn ethanol", especially those who have had their tractors and farming equipment damaged by the alcohol in fuel, that they've been forced to use E10 too, in most states/areas.

    Why have you lost your right to choose and buy ethanol-free fuel?...Is more important than
    whether or not the farmers have also earned a little profit from the very corrupt ethanol industry.
    I'll even guess some of those farmers are your tax-paying neighbors who are also struggling in this economy, unlike the rich shareholders at Archer Daniels Midland or B/P (blending in the ethanol tax credits) or the pollution emitting ethanol plant down the street.
  • Michael RepperMichael Repper Posts: 4,897 Officer
    To Michael Repper who stated above "Corn is the most heavily subsidized crop in the US. Farmers are paid by the government subsidies to grow corn..."
    If you are concerned about ethanol subsidies I would look more at all the money you've paid to ethanol producers and gas companies (EG. Ethanol blending tax credit= 45 cents/gallon)

    Did you read my whole post? I pointed out that ethanol producers are subsidized and that on top of that, the government puts tariffs on cheap Brazilian ethanol to further prop up the domestic ethanol industry.
    - The farmers are not the ones getting unfairly rich from ethanol (Another one of those false ethanol rumors) -

    That is patently false! Most corn subsidies go to the large corporate farms. In fact, if you look into it a little deeper, you'll see that a very small proportion of our modern farms are the traditional small farmers that politicians like to use as a cover for their massive subsidization of large corporate industrial farming.
    Did you know Florida has imported ethanol from the Carribean and Brazil?

    What is wrong with that? Brazilian ethanol is significantly cheaper than heavily subsidized domestically produced ethanol!

    The point is that our government pays farms to produce crops that we don't really need! Look into the market prices of these subsidized crops and you will see that the artificially inflated prices that we are forced to pay through the subsidization of these crops are overwhelmingly higher than the prices anywhere else in the world!

    It has gotten to the point where the big industrial farms which make up the vast majority of our domestic farm production are really just harvesting subsidies! And they are making money hand over fist in doing so!

    How can anyone argue that our government should be propping up these big corporate industrial farms with our tax dollars?

    Livestock farmers say ethanol eats too much corn KansasCity.com November 23rd, 2011
    "Livestock farmers are demanding a change in the nation's ethanol policy, claiming current rules could lead to spikes in meat prices and even shortages at supermarkets if corn growers have a bad year. About 5.9 billion bushels of corn were used for animal feed last year; 2.4 billion were exported; and about 4.9 billion were used for ethanol, up from about 630 million bushels in 2000, according to the National Corn Growers Association..."
    Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/23/3282013/livestock-farmers-say-ethanol.html#ixzz1fBQOkWks

    Another example of the artificially high market prices created by the subsidies and import tariffs negatively affecting Americans!
    I'll even guess some of those farmers are your tax-paying neighbors who are also struggling in this economy, unlike the rich shareholders at Archer Daniels Midland or B/P (blending in the ethanol tax credits) or the pollution emitting ethanol plant down the street.

    That's just it, hardly any of them are anymore! The vast majority of our domestic production is in the hands of large scale corporate industrial farming companies. They have figured out how to milk the subsidy system on a massive scale and they have been very successful at it!
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,013 AG
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    Those bills, like so many others, can or may "die"...But if they do, you probably will have nobody to blame but people like yourself ,who would rather complain and do nothing,

    You don't know what I have done or not done. I had my fight when E-10 first came on the market. I was tracking the federal bills you mentioned, why I know they were dying in committee. You post this topic as though the State reps. will overturn the E-10 requirement and E-10 will go away in Florida. Talk about false facts.

    E-10 is here to stay unless there is a major change in Washington and the EPA or the development of a new alternative fuel source. You can ***** about E-10 all you want and it won't go away. The current administration is not going to let any bill repealing the alternative fuels act.

    You misunderstand NPRA's lawsuit. They aren't opposed to E15. They are opposed to limited approval and the liability that goes with it. They are suing to force the EPA to continue testing and approve E-15 for all vehicles and remove the liability from the petroleum industry. As he says in his speech you linked to, they support E-15 when the EPA certifies it for all engines.

    I don't expect you will see E15 until 2020 or later, but it is on the way unless a new alternative is developed. The only change I see will be a move from corn to biomass as the source for most Ethanol.

    I have been around the petroleum industry most of my life. I was there back in the 80s when lead was removed from fuel and we had that fight. I'm smart enough at this point in my life to realize the direction we are heading with alternative fuels. Ethanol is an alternative fuel that is here to stay for several decades and its use, especially when cellulosic Ethanol hits the mass market, will continue to increase.

    My opinion on this may change if there is a major policy shift in 2013, depending on next years elections. I am not counting on that, but Reagan changed our energy policy from Carter's administration when he became President. It could happen depending on you gets elected and how control of congress goes.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 25,013 AG
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    I forgot, you are aware that the API was one of the groups that wrote the original RFS that congress passed.

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    E10 has been in the market since around 1908 - I don't go back that far - E10 has only been the primary conventional fuel sold in Florida since 2008 - NY was in 2006, California around 2004, etc.
    The federal "legislation" that brought ethanol to your local gas pumps started decades ago- Each and every state and federal law directs the future of ethanol -
    The most significant legislation (creating widespread distribution of E10) mostly was when President Bush (R) was in office -EG. Energy Policy Act (2005), Renewable Fuels Standards (RFS-2006 and future revisions), Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA-2007)...ETC.

    I lived in Florida during that time frame (2002-2007), and honestly every one I personally knew, including mechanics, auto dealers, and boat mechanics did not even know what E10 and E85 gas types are. Of course those of us employed in an industry related to gas or renewable energy were familiar with legislation, but certainly not the voting majority (that needed to be).

    ANYWAY...
    I really should not have responded to these off-topic debatable issues brought up here by members, since they have absolutely nothing to do with purpose of this thread-(Florida's mandatory E10 law) -I expect we all might agree that almost "everything ethanol" has turned into one big scam, especially over the past 5 years.

    Unfortunately every time an opportunity arises to take a small step in a positive direction,
    (EG. FL voters getting involved now to encourage passage of HB 4013/238) the discussions branch off into broad, political arguments, that WE really do not have the ability (or desire) to resolve. What happened in the past with ethanol, we can't change now - But we can change the outcome of "pending" ethanol laws that are currently being challenged.
    Heck, they approved it 10:1 - Shouldn't be too hard for Florida residents to stop those who are trying to delay/postpone this repeal (?)

    IMO, Overall the negatives of E10 far outweigh the benefits; Even if you are convinced that ethanol creates jobs, reduces petroleum dependency, decreases pollution, etc. (I'm not.) - Mandating E10 is outrageous!
    I maybe could be convinced that E85 flex-fuel (mandates) serve a useful purpose - But at this time, after years and years of the ethanol industry doing "the wrong thing" time and time again, I personally want no part of anything that uses ethanol as fuel.


    Pro or Anti-ethanol, MANDATORY E10 LAWS unfairly (?illegally) limit a consumer's buying choices and rights, and do not belong in a democratic society...

    EG. If you own an older boat, antique car, boat or airplane (and the owners manual clearly advises against use of gasahol), who is responsible to pay for repairs if E10 damages the engine? Or worse, if engine stalls due to moisture in the fuel system and that car, boat, motorcycle or airplane crashes, who is responsible?

    Government mandates that take away choice, without financial responsibility or consideration of increased risks they may cause, should be illegal. (Just my opinion).
  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    Repeal EISA...

    I suppose H.R. 3097 and 3098 "Fuel Feedstock Freedom Act", currently in Congress, and other current federal legislation that addresses the RFS-Renewable Fuel Standards (2004-onward), would also accomplish to revise EISA (2007)...?

    RFS, EISA, state, federal legislation or whatever, if the public does not stay involved in pending (ethanol/fuel/energy) legislation big or small, I'm confident the ethanol promoters will continue to push more and more ethanol on you, and eventually you will have no choice whatsoever on the type of fuels you want to buy for your engines...

    There are many powerful groups that promote ethanol - 2 (of many) you need to start watching, if you haven't already done so, are:
    1) ACE - American Coalition for Ethanol: http://www.ethanol.org/
    2) Growth Energy: http://www.growthenergy.org/

    Bipartisan, Bicameral Legislation Introduced to Address Ethanol Mandate Concerns:
    H.R.3098 Renewable Fuel Standard ELIMINATION Act -
    To repeal the renewable fuel program of the Environmental Protection Agency.
    H.R.3097 Renewable Fuel Standard FLEXIBILITY Act, 112th Congress -
    Introduced Oct. 4th and 11th, 2011 - Sponsor: Rep. Robert Goodlatte [R, VA-6]
    To partially waive the federal renewable fuel standards when corn inventories are low....

    Email your state's member of Congress on this act here:
    http://www.opencongress.org/contact_congress_letters/new?bill=112-h3097&position=support
    or from here: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h3098/show
    or from here: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h3097/show
  • fuel-testersfuel-testers Posts: 20 Greenhorn
    Yes - E10 should NOT be mandated
    Mister-Jr wrote: »
    So what? It's the federal standard and a bunch of morons in Tallahasse are not going to change that. Perhaps they should try and do something constructive
    Idiots.
    NO Federal Mandate or Standard exists that requires ethanol in conventional E10 gasoline. -
    Florida and 3 or 4 other states have "mandatory E10 blending laws"- Law was passed in FL March 2008.

    "03-13-2008 -Terence McElroy (850) 488-3022 [email protected] Bronson Unveils New Fuel Quality Standards For Gasoline/Ethanol Blends"
    See these pages for details:
    http://www.fuel-testers.com/florida_ethanol_news_e10.html
    http://www.fuel-testers.com/fl_article_bronson_new_standards_ethanol_blends.html

    Your state (Florida) required E10 - Not the federal government...But, you probably have more politicans in your state boldly speaking out against E10 and E15 right now, than most other states have.
    If the public and voters don't join/support them, I expect the mandatory E10 law in Florida will continue.

    Plus, you're likely to be one of the first states to have E15 (when it becomes legal) since you have many pushing for grants/subsidies to install blender pumps in Florida- (Blender pumps dispense mid levels of ethanol up to E85).

    EISA and RFS and other federal laws/policies included increasing quotas for "renewable energy", not E10.
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