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The Real Garden/Permaculture/Homesteading Thread

Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain
Seeing Panhandler’s new planters and some of the responses there and on my chicken thread got me thinking that there’s enough of us here into gardening and also interested in the notion of sustainable farming that we should start a combined thread about it. Open to everyone to post their projects or questions. I’m going to leave my chickens out of this thread given that I have a whole thread devoted to them. But I think for other people livestock would be appropriate to discuss here as well. 

I’ve nerded out on gardening and permaculture about as much as I have on the chickens. I’ve been surprised how cheap it is to get into gardening. 

Here’s some small tangerines someone brought in to work I’m going to get seeds out of and start:


Citrus greening has pretty much destroyed Florida’s citrus industry and home citrus orchards. However there’s some reason to believe that citrus grown in hardwood hammocks has immunity to greening. When these come up and get developed, as well as some Myers lemons I’m starting, I’m going to try to establish them in about 6 acres of hardwoods I have on the farm. 



I’ve got 15 acres of blueberries that I think are going to yield good this year with all the rain we’re getting in north Florida. The high bush and some of the rabbiteyes are starting to wake up. 



I’ve never bothered to start seedlings indoors. This year I’m trying it with three kinds of tomatoes, citrus, Seminole pumpkins, and Jalapeños. 2 of the tomatoes I grew last year and the jalapeños I grew 2 years ago. So I’m curious to see if the older seeds I saved will come up. Of the Seminole pumpkins, I have seeds both from 2 years ago and last year. I’m curious to see which batch does best. I also have volunteers starting to come up from
last year in some of the chicken compost. Each year it seems like they become more resilient and vigorous so I’m probably going to favor the newer seeds and plants over the older ones, with the presumption that natural selection is favoring those pumpkins that grow best for my conditions at the farm. 
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Replies

  • stc1993stc1993 Albany, GA Carrabelle, FLPosts: 9,574 Admiral
    I don't believe you can plat citrus from seed they have to be grafted.  They will grow but will be sour you can't eat them.
  • mindyabinessmindyabiness Posts: 7,459 Admiral
    I have found those tangerines in the woods and they are like candy. I'm not a big citrus fan but those things are unbelievable. I have often wondered how they got there.
     I could not get the seeds to germinate, but I didn't try very hard.
    I suspect they are native, but I have no idea. You don't see them often but they are usually in small groups, getting filtered light through the higher canopy.
    Not where you might expect to see a citrus tree.
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain
    I have found those tangerines in the woods and they are like candy. I'm not a big citrus fan but those things are unbelievable. I have often wondered how they got there.
     I could not get the seeds to germinate, but I didn't try very hard.
    I suspect they are native, but I have no idea. You don't see them often but they are usually in small groups, getting filtered light through the higher canopy.
    Not where you might expect to see a citrus tree.
    Yes, I know where some are in the Ocala National Forest. They’re sweet as can be. I can’t rule out they didn’t come from an old homestead and the tree is decades old. But I had the impression they were growing there wild and probably came up from seeds. 

    stc1993 said:
    I don't believe you can plat citrus from seed they have to be grafted.  They will grow but will be sour you can't eat them.
    That’s my understanding as well. The conventional wisdom is that if you plant a seed you get a sour orange, then you have to graft on the sweet variety you want. 

    I’d like to test it because I’ve found so much wild sweet citrus in the woods that I question whether it’s always true. 

    If the conventional wisdom holds, I still have to start the tree anyhow before I can graft it. And I like like sour oranges. I’ve eaten them on camping trips when I had nothing else but jerky and it changed my taste buds. 
  • conchydongconchydong Pompano BeachPosts: 11,973 AG
    edited February 2021 #5
    If you plant a seed from a modern-day nursery grown tree it will become a sour orange because they use that as the root stock. Those old citrus that are found out in the woods weren’t grown from nursery trees. they are all from seeds that scattered

    “Everyone behaves badly--given the chance.”
    ― Ernest Hemingway

  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain
    edited February 2021 #6
    If you plant a seed from a modern-day nursery grown tree it will become a sour orange because they use that as the root stock. Those old citrus that are found out in the woods weren’t grown from nursery trees. they are all from seeds that scattered
    That makes sense. So it isn’t that original sweet citrus trees don’t exist, it’s just that modern nursery practices prefer the sour oranges for toughness? I know it’s that way for persimmons (because it’s been a mission of mine to establish Japanese persimmons and I found out they’re all grown from native persimmon root stock with the Japanese persimmon grafted on).
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain
    But then the next question is, why is the roost stock controlling the DNA of the seed? Shouldn’t the DNA of the seed be that of the grafted limb? 
  • OGFOGF Posts: 2,084 Captain
    Sour orange is the base liquid of Mojo marinade. 

    If you have not had Mojo chicken or pork it is incredible.. 

    In other words, if you are experimenting I would keep a sour orange tree along with the other sweet citrus.
  • mindyabinessmindyabiness Posts: 7,459 Admiral
    There are genetic anomalies ....it's like 1 in 10000 that will be sweet , which is probably why we have so many citrus trees growing against the laws of nature in the first place. Someone, somewhere found a sweet orange and got busy. Those tangerines are not from graft. They are from seed but that doesn't mean their seedlings will produce sweet fruit or any fruit at all. It could also be that pollen was transferred from another type of citrus tree producing the tree that grows the sweet fruit. I have always found those tangerines in the vicinity of trees with sour fruit and some not so sour fruit. So maybe pollination has something to do with it? I have a feeling that if those trees could be a commercial enterprise, it would have happened by now.
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
  • conchydongconchydong Pompano BeachPosts: 11,973 AG
    edited February 2021 #10
    But then the next question is, why is the roost stock controlling the DNA of the seed? Shouldn’t the DNA of the seed be that of the grafted limb? 
    I wish I could answer that Bullfrog. I am not a horticulturist but from what I understand is that the sour orange rootstock is more resistant to disease etc. Not sure why the grafted parts wouldn't control the DNA. I hope someone with this knowledge will chime in as it is interesting.

    “Everyone behaves badly--given the chance.”
    ― Ernest Hemingway

  • LostconchLostconch Posts: 1,072 Officer
    I do not know why but the same seems to pertain to apples and other fruit trees
     For whatever reason the root stock is the boss.
  • LostconchLostconch Posts: 1,072 Officer
    By the way I like the idea of a home food growth thread
  • GardawgGardawg IslamoradaPosts: 14,753 AG
    Iguanas have made gardening impossible here.  I'd need a greenhouse. 
    "Forgiveness is a strange thing. It can be sometimes easier to forgive our enemies than our friends. It can be hardest of all to forgive people we love." Fred Rogers  
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain
    Gardawg said:
    Iguanas have made gardening impossible here.  I'd need a greenhouse. 
    I’m told iguanas taste good, if you’re so inclined to try. Animals can learn where they’re being hunted and steer clear of the danger zone. Seems like gators and turtles can learn this so maybe an iguana can too. 

    I’d try iguana before a mammal varmint, considering iguanas are plant eaters. I remember being fed gopher tortoise as a child and it was good. Gophers have similar diets to iguanas. 
  • I've ate a couple Iguanas..
    Lemon Pepper on the grill. Delicacy in Peru from what I've heard.
    I'd still be eating them if I didn't move to the cold part of Florida..
    Killin and Grillin :grin
  • conchydongconchydong Pompano BeachPosts: 11,973 AG
    Gardawg said:
    Iguanas have made gardening impossible here.  I'd need a greenhouse. 
    I’m told iguanas taste good, if you’re so inclined to try. Animals can learn where they’re being hunted and steer clear of the danger zone. Seems like gators and turtles can learn this so maybe an iguana can too. 

    I’d try iguana before a mammal varmint, considering iguanas are plant eaters. I remember being fed gopher tortoise as a child and it was good. Gophers have similar diets to iguanas. 
    You are correct about them learning to steer clear of the danger zone. I bought a Gamo break barrel .177 to cull them and I am seeing less and less on my property. As far as eating them, I like Gator and turtle but Iguanas are too pre-historic and nasty looking for me to consume and they have a high rate of salmonella so I wouldn't want to skin and gut them for cooking.

    “Everyone behaves badly--given the chance.”
    ― Ernest Hemingway

  • GardawgGardawg IslamoradaPosts: 14,753 AG
    My backyard has iguanas and it also has lobster.

    What would be your choice?


    "Forgiveness is a strange thing. It can be sometimes easier to forgive our enemies than our friends. It can be hardest of all to forgive people we love." Fred Rogers  
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain
    Gardawg said:
    My backyard has iguanas and it also has lobster.

    What would be your choice?


    Just saying, if a garden is a priority, take up iguana eating and make your yard a iguana kill zone. If you don’t want a garden, well, then don’t. If I had access to the bounty of the ocean then I think I’d spend more time learning how to harvest it with the least amount of cost and effort than gardening. 






  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain


    Volunteer tomatoes from last year. Meaning they’re tomatoes that seeded themselves between last spring and now. To my surprise, they’re survived in the chicken compost, even subject to chickens turning the compost, and survived the winter. Now they’re sprouting. Which is a blessing to me because this variety of heirloom was unnamed to me when I got them and I neglected to save seeds. There is a chance they’re hybridized with my Everglades tomatoes, which is fine if they are. I’m most interested in having a resilient tomato that comes back on its own each year. I’ll deal with its fruit size secondarily. So these are showing promise. I brought some inside as I’m not convinced the frosts are done with or the chickens will let them flourish as seedlings until more greenery takes off with spring weather. We’ll see. 
  • stc1993stc1993 Albany, GA Carrabelle, FLPosts: 9,574 Admiral
    I like those little cherry tomatoes.  They come back every year.  I eat them right off the bush.
  • GardawgGardawg IslamoradaPosts: 14,753 AG
    I've considered getting a greenhouse. It would have to be a small one. Hard to beat fresh baby okra right off the plant.  The wind is also a big problem. It'll burn anything except a mangrove. 

    I
    fishing is EZ ... that's why I moved here

    "Forgiveness is a strange thing. It can be sometimes easier to forgive our enemies than our friends. It can be hardest of all to forgive people we love." Fred Rogers  
  • mindyabinessmindyabiness Posts: 7,459 Admiral
    edited February 2021 #22
    Gardawg said:
    My backyard has iguanas and it also has lobster.

    What would be your choice?


    You can get iguanas and not leave the porch....all year long. Iguanas don't attract 1000's of gomers and their offspring.
    You don't need a green house, just some chicken wire or a well placed electric fence.


    Gardawg said:
    Iguanas have made gardening impossible here.  I'd need a greenhouse. 

    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
  • GardawgGardawg IslamoradaPosts: 14,753 AG
    How does a fence mitigate the wind? 


    "Forgiveness is a strange thing. It can be sometimes easier to forgive our enemies than our friends. It can be hardest of all to forgive people we love." Fred Rogers  
  • mindyabinessmindyabiness Posts: 7,459 Admiral
    edited February 2021 #24
    Gardawg said:
    How does a fence mitigate the wind? 


    O.K. I'll bite.....

    I would guess..... it depends on the fence and how it's constructed, and how strong the wind is....but the quick answer is, "It slows the wind down (as in velocity)"
    I suggest you direct that question to our resident googologist ...he knows everything.

    What's the punchline?

    Why do you ask?
    Trying to catch a breeze? Heh heh  :D





    Gardawg said:
    Iguanas have made gardening impossible here.  I'd need a greenhouse. 

    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain
    Gardawg said:
    I've considered getting a greenhouse. It would have to be a small one. Hard to beat fresh baby okra right off the plant.  The wind is also a big problem. It'll burn anything except a mangrove. 

    I
    fishing is EZ ... that's why I moved here

    If you like tomatoes, a green house and a hydroponic system will probably net you infinite tomatoes. I have a buddy that does tomatoes and lettuce in his back yard greenhouse and hydroponic systems and he has all he wants to feed a family of 6 very day of the week. 

    I have lots of space in my barn so I’m seeing if a cheap grow light will be enough to keep plants growing indoors. If it’s going to take more expense then I’d be better off just getting a cheap greenhouse. 
  • treemanjohntreemanjohn Posts: 7,998 Admiral
    Hydro is the only way to go. No spread of disease and you can micro manage all of the plants nutrients 
    We’re like the piggy bank that everybody is robbing, and that ends
  • GardawgGardawg IslamoradaPosts: 14,753 AG
    Gardawg said:
    How does a fence mitigate the wind? 


    O.K. I'll bite.....

    I would guess..... it depends on the fence and how it's constructed, and how strong the wind is....but the quick answer is, "It slows the wind down (as in velocity)"
    I suggest you direct that question to our resident googologist ...he knows everything.

    What's the punchline?

    Why do you ask?
    Trying to catch a breeze? Heh heh  :D





    Gardawg said:
    Iguanas have made gardening impossible here.  I'd need a greenhouse. 

    I guess chicken wire wouldn't work too well.
    "Forgiveness is a strange thing. It can be sometimes easier to forgive our enemies than our friends. It can be hardest of all to forgive people we love." Fred Rogers  
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 4,847 Captain
    Gardawg said:
    Gardawg said:
    How does a fence mitigate the wind? 


    O.K. I'll bite.....

    I would guess..... it depends on the fence and how it's constructed, and how strong the wind is....but the quick answer is, "It slows the wind down (as in velocity)"
    I suggest you direct that question to our resident googologist ...he knows everything.

    What's the punchline?

    Why do you ask?
    Trying to catch a breeze? Heh heh  :D





    Gardawg said:
    Iguanas have made gardening impossible here.  I'd need a greenhouse. 

    I guess chicken wire wouldn't work too well.
    I guess you could weave palm fronds through it.  :D
  • pottydocpottydoc Port Saint JoePosts: 5,248 Admiral
    But then the next question is, why is the roost stock controlling the DNA of the seed? Shouldn’t the DNA of the seed be that of the grafted limb? 
    I wish I could answer that Bullfrog. I am not a horticulturist but from what I understand is that the sour orange rootstock is more resistant to disease etc. Not sure why the grafted parts wouldn't control the DNA. I hope someone with this knowledge will chime in as it is interesting.
    Concha is correct. I’m not a horticulturist either, but my family has raised oranges for their living for many years. It is hard to grow citrus from the seeds. If you can find wild citrus growing, occasionally you can get a tree that’s not sour root stock. It is highly doubtful you will get Greening if there are no groves close to you. The bug that causes it doesn’t travel far, so they have to move from grove to grove within their range. I think that it’s only a few miles. Baring a motiveless, the citrus industry in Florida will be gone before too many years pass. My family has gotten out of the business, pushed up what trees they had left, and have cattle on the property now. 

  • Lived in Davie outside Ft' Lauderdale for a bit..Orange groves all around us.
    The Favorite part of it for me was where they grew all kinds of experimental stock..Never knew what the next one was gonna taste like...
    Killin and Grillin :grin
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