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Main oil tank not sending to secondary tank on Motor

Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
Motor is a Yamaha 2004 2 stroke with fuel injection.   The main oil tank is not sending oil anymore to the secondary tank on the motor now, I confirmed this yesterday by siphoning what oil I had in the secondary tank then turning the key on the ignition.  I immediately got the low oil alarm but the pump never filled the reservoir.   So i pressed the manual override switch, still nothing.  I had my son hit the switch while I had my head almost inside the hatch to listen for the pump to kick on and I did not hear anything.   I thought maybe a clogged filter but now I believe it's the pump itself that is shot.   I have not checked all the wiring yet for a bad connection.  I'm going to just go ahead and replace the pump and the filter/screen that's on the tank.   
 It's a 2004 so probably due for a replacement anyway and no sense tearing it apart only to put all the old parts back on.  Is it as easy as it looks?   Looks like a wiring harness, a hose that's held on with a zip tie and boom.   the mounting bracket rusted away so prob have to replace that as well.  I might post pictures when i fix it but it's so dirty I'd be embarrassed.  
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Replies

  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 3,899 Captain
    Before you get started you might want to verify with your dealer (and maybe a tech who's got a lot of experience with older Yammies..) to find out first - can you get just the parts to re-build that tank and secondly would you be better off simply getting a new tank complete instead of attempting to re-build the old unit.... 

    Good luck and post up exactly how the repair/replace goes.... 


    "Aren't boats fun?"
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    Talked to the dealer this morning.   I have seen kits online that were complete for around $500 dollars.  But they are all out of stock.   The pump can be replaced, and I did see a couple kits on Ebay that were 330 dollars but the more I dug into it, i saw that they didn't have the actual oil pump.   You can buy just the tank itself for about $100 so i'm confident i can just swap out the pump and filter and be good to go with cleaning out the tank itself.    
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  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    You can see the pump and the 4 bolts holding it in this one i pulled off the internet mine is undoubtedly dirtier


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  • gogittumgogittum SW New MexicoPosts: 602 Officer
    Man, sure proud of those things, aren't they ??

    It looks like a fairly basic unit.  Can you or a friend do a bit of troubleshooting ??  Make sure power is at least getting to the pump when you hit the switch ??  Try jumping from a battery directly to the motor ??  Electric motors are generally pretty reliable.  Most problems - especially in a marine environment - are in switches and connections.  By far the most.

    $500 ??  $330 ??  I would do one huge amount of troubleshooting before dropping that kind of bucks.
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    gogittum said:
    Man, sure proud of those things, aren't they ??

    It looks like a fairly basic unit.  Can you or a friend do a bit of troubleshooting ??  Make sure power is at least getting to the pump when you hit the switch ??  Try jumping from a battery directly to the motor ??  Electric motors are generally pretty reliable.  Most problems - especially in a marine environment - are in switches and connections.  By far the most.

    $500 ??  $330 ??  I would do one huge amount of troubleshooting before dropping that kind of bucks.
    Definitely not dropping that money without troubleshooting.  I ordered the pump, it's 160 and with the filter i'm in for about 175 dollars total.   And that's not a huge issue i like having new parts where they matter anyway, no oil no motor.   Once I get it out of the boat and back to the house (boat stored offsite) i'm going to try and jump it off a car battery to test it.   I'm betting right now that it's a connection or wire.   But at the same time, it's not a bad idea to replace these parts just for piece of mind. 
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  • GotseaGotsea Posts: 735 Officer
    I am old school, like to diagnose a problem before start throwing parts at it like most mechanics do now a days, a new pump will do you any good if you have a bad connection/switch  
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    Gotsea said:
    I am old school, like to diagnose a problem before start throwing parts at it like most mechanics do now a days, a new pump will do you any good if you have a bad connection/switch  
    I get that, and you're not wrong.  My thought process is if this is an issue, i'm only going to have to mess with it once.  If it's wiring i'll fix that.  But I don't want to fix the wiring, and then 2 weeks later the pump goes.  Or the filter.   Fix the whole system and never worry about it again.   
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  • livebait1livebait1 west JaxPosts: 102 Deckhand
    No offense but if you’re embarrassed to post pictures your problem usually lies in the grime.
  • Garza BlancaGarza Blanca Posts: 103 Deckhand
    I just had the same thing happen with mine. I have the same engine and boat. We were out one day and it would not send oil to the engine tank even when using the switch on the back of the engine. Got it back to house and it worked fine. I still tore everything down to clean and check everything. Took out and drained the main tank and there was about an 1/8” of sludge in the bottom. Ordered a new pump and filter, figured after 16 years why not. I haven’t had a chance to fill it and check it, but will when I get back in town. BTW there’s another thread on here that stresses the importance of changing a little foam washer in the engine tank if you take the float assembly out.
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    Filthy but i got it home and cleaned it   I tested the pump and it works but you dont get that nice hummm   Its more of a lugging chug   So not stressing the 150$ for the new pump    
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  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    livebait1 said:
    No offense but if you’re embarrassed to post pictures your problem usually lies in the grime.
    None taken. I bought the boat March of last yr.   you can only go through so much at one time.  Fixed a tilt trim leak, fixed the entire trailer to torsion axles. Replaced trolling motor batteries, and starter battery.   New tilt trim switch. Cushions. Ignition switch. Rewired the entire trailer.  You can only do what you can do. 
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  • Garza BlancaGarza Blanca Posts: 103 Deckhand
    That’s what mine looked like when I took it out. I also changed out the tank bracket, found a nice SS one for $80 vs a new Yamaha OEM for $150. I’ve got about 2 gallons of oil I’m going to dump but I’m not taking any chances with it.
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    edited July 15 #14
    the oil gauge assembly is the issue, the wires were rotting off of it as i took it off the tank.   fortunately that's another $125 but once this is done, new filter, pump, guage and wiring i should not have to worry about it anymore.   The one on the boat is hardwired in that's why there is a paper towel in that hole.   The whole thing is a friggin mess.  
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  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    alright so i'm at a total loss, the wire harness I need is on back order and will not be in until after I'm supposed to be in marathon so right now i'm dead in the ****ing water.   Any ideas are appreciated because i'm at my wits end right now.   I have called every parts dealer in central florida no one has it in stock and i called ones in tampa as well so my daughter could go pick it up nobody has the **** thing.   The gauge assembly will be in tomorrow but it's useless without the wiring harness.  
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  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    It is this part

    https://www.boats.net/product/yamaha/6R3-85721-80-00?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImvmB48ve6gIVhJ-zCh0n_w_gEAQYAiABEgIt7vD_BwE

    should i order it from them?  no.   Because the last company i ordered online from screwed me royally and that's why i'm in this mess. if i cannot go put my hands on the thing i'm not paying for it.   
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  • 1outlaw1outlaw Naples FLPosts: 1,362 Officer
    edited July 21 #17
    I always buy all my parts thru these guys. 
    https://www.crowleymarine.com/parts/447796.cfm?q=6R3-85721-80-00

    Not sure when your trip is.  Back ordered until 8/6
    Jason :USA
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    1outlaw said:
    I always buy all my parts thru these guys. 
    https://www.crowleymarine.com/parts/447796.cfm?q=6R3-85721-80-00

    Not sure when your trip is.  
    Those are the guys who screwed me.   I ordered the gauge assembly and they sent me a flush coupler for the motor.  Charged my credit card 140 bucks and sent me a 10 dollar part.  I called them, and sent 3 emails to support.  no response, finally i speak to Joseph, he says he'll void the charge and send me a return slip.  Haven't heard from them since.  So i'm filing a dispute with my credit card company, i had to reorder the parts and now they are on back order.  ETA 8/6.   Pissed doesn't quite cover it right now. 
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  • gogittumgogittum SW New MexicoPosts: 602 Officer
    OK, it's a mess, but in the pictures I can see screws and wires.....so there's hope.

    A couple of things 1st.....A company screwed you, but in my experience that's a rare thing.  I have stuff delivered from online purchases several times a week and have done for some years now.  Almost all have been fine.  (hah....try dealing with an online gun dealer in these times.  There's frustration for you.  I'm going thru that right now)  Try a different dealer.

    My business in Palm Springs was basically air conditioning and refrigeration - good business in the desert.  A restaurant supply was starting up and the....shark...owner was the son of a friend of my dad's.  He'd screw over a crew and they'd quit, so he couldn't service his customers.  Long story shorter, I was asked to fill in between crews.  (it happened several times)  I knew from nothing about cooking equipment but a switch opens and closes an electrical circuit as needed.  A motor turns something.  Basically all the same thing and it worked out.  I made a "lot" of money off that guy and his shenanigans.  Crooked as a dog's hind leg and meaner than a snake, but I had him over a barrel and wouldn't take his s.h.i.t.....and I learned a lot.

    It didn't come easy - lots of my hair littered the floors and I can surely tell you what purple faced frustration is.  (one of the biggest things was learning how to get the decorative panels off to expose the workings)  What I did learn from all that is the huge benefit of not only talking to yourself, but answering, too.....out loud.  Think about it.  When I was learning the business and went on tough calls, I'd get stuck, call my dad and explain the problem to him.  In the course of explaining and his questions, it'd all sort itself out in my head and I'd go back and fix it.

    That quickly evolved to where I'd be working my way thru something and be mumbling, "OK, that thing ties to that and goes thru there...." and "yup, if that closes under heat, then this must...."  Don't laugh - it "really" works.  Take your time.

    Sooo.....in the photos above, I can see screws on that part and wires coming out of it.  Your last post shows a wiring harness.  (when I restored my Turbo Saab in '90, I built a complete new wiring harness for the car on the bench, then drove the car for 8 years.  Try it one time.  Patience, my son, it's not solid state stuff nor rocket science)

    Clean it up.  Take "clear" pictures of it as you go.  Go slow.  Think about it.  Look at it.  Sit on your butt and figure it out.  Make notes.  Groups of small parts - screws, washers, etc. go in separate baggies with a note so you know where they go on re-assembly.  Take that pump or whatever it is apart and clean it up.  Since it runs in oil, prob'ly no need to lube it :smile: but clean it up and check for free movement.  If the wires are bad, get tinned copper wire of the correct size, choose color codes and start replacing one at a time.If a connector is bad, find one with enuf terminals at a hardware store and replace it.  Doesn't hafta be identical - correct capacity and terminals.  Failing that, jump the connector with a length of wire.  For anything that's going to be moving or vibrating, I don't like to solder wires - they tend to break where the solder ends - but if you only have a stub you may not have any choice.

    If that's the case, don't try to hold the 2 ends together while you heat them.  You don't have enuf hands.  Clean (clean, clean, clean) them good and tin them.  "Then" put the tinned ends together and apply heat.  Boom, you've got a solid connection.  Do NOT let the ends move while the solder is molten.  If they do, you've instantly got a cold connection that "will" fail.  Re-do it.  Only takes a few seconds.

    I don't like to use the inline crimp connectors to join 2 wires.  2 places to fail and the wire ends aren't held solidly together.  I like the little white caps that both ends fit into, then crimp together in one solid connection.  Crush them - use both hands and put your shoulders into it.  Almost nobody uses enuf force.  I call them "Chinese hats."  Then I fill them with silicone to keep water out....and wiggle the wires around to make sure the silly-cone coats everything.

    Hah....I do like to talk and could easily write a book, but this should make a start.  I made my living doing just this kind of stuff for over 20 years and they threw everything at me.  I rarely failed - almost never.  If you get fussed, PM me or ask here.
  • gogittumgogittum SW New MexicoPosts: 602 Officer
    Ooops.....in the above, I told a bit of a howler.  When I rebuilt the Saab, I made a new "engine compartment wiring harness" because engine heat had cooked the insulation of the wires brittle.  Move them and they'd crack and pieces break off.  Disaster in the making, but all other wiring was OK.  Lights, under the dash, etc. were fine, just the engine compartment.
  • backwatercolebackwatercole Posts: 217 Deckhand
    Soda, just a shot in the dark here, but you have an oil reservoir on the engine itself, right?  I ask because we had a 2000 Hurricane with an oil injected 115 Yammy on it.  The big tank (like yours in the picture) quit sending oil to the reservoir on the engine.  The engine would eat up the oil in the reservoir and wouldn't have any sending from the tnak to the reservoir.  We would just keep extra oil onboard and when needed, we would just add manually.  It's a bit of a pain, but you can get around if you aren't able to get the wiring harness needed.  We ran the boat for years this way.  Might not be ideal if you are offshore in any kind of seas with having to remove the cowling, but in a pinch, it worked.  We usually only took the boat out to Anclote Island from Gulf Harbors so I would top off before we left the dock and then again before heading back in.  Again, not the most ideal, but a way to get around the second tank not sending to the reservoir IF you aren't able to get your hands on that part.  Good luck!  Have you checked any of the auto parts stores or the marine stores in the keys?  A while back, buddy and I took his boat down for lobstering and the fuel line collapsed.  Had to get a replacement quick and went right to the NAPA that is in Marathon.  Might be worth a call?
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    Got one part coming in tomorrow.   What i can do is see if i can cobble something together using the old wires and maybe solder them together.   I don't want to cut any of my new wire clips because when the parts that are correct do come in i want it all to work properly.   But in the meantime i have to make it work for at least one week.  
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  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    Soda, just a shot in the dark here, but you have an oil reservoir on the engine itself, right?  I ask because we had a 2000 Hurricane with an oil injected 115 Yammy on it.  The big tank (like yours in the picture) quit sending oil to the reservoir on the engine.  The engine would eat up the oil in the reservoir and wouldn't have any sending from the tnak to the reservoir.  We would just keep extra oil onboard and when needed, we would just add manually.  It's a bit of a pain, but you can get around if you aren't able to get the wiring harness needed.  We ran the boat for years this way.  Might not be ideal if you are offshore in any kind of seas with having to remove the cowling, but in a pinch, it worked.  We usually only took the boat out to Anclote Island from Gulf Harbors so I would top off before we left the dock and then again before heading back in.  Again, not the most ideal, but a way to get around the second tank not sending to the reservoir IF you aren't able to get your hands on that part.  Good luck!  Have you checked any of the auto parts stores or the marine stores in the keys?  A while back, buddy and I took his boat down for lobstering and the fuel line collapsed.  Had to get a replacement quick and went right to the NAPA that is in Marathon.  Might be worth a call?
    Yea that is going to be plan C if i cannot splice it or get the right parts in.   My problem with doing it that way is once the alarm goes off, the motor is already hot from lack of oil.   I don't want to lose the motor because i forgot to fill it on a short trip.   
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  • snookaffinitysnookaffinity Naples, FLPosts: 1,171 Officer
    Can you mix oil with the gas in the gas tank and just unplug the oil injector until you receive your parts?
    "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    Can you mix oil with the gas in the gas tank and just unplug the oil injector until you receive your parts?
    I would be afraid to, it's a fuel injected 2 stroke so i'm not wanting to get all into those workings and then mix it wrong and blow it up that way.   If it was carbed i'd probably go that route.    But even my 99 merc 90 2 stroke didn't have these issues, but it only had one oil tank.   
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  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    alright.  Finally found a place with one in stock.  Is it the 9 foot one i need?  No.  Is it the 26' one dont need but can zip tie and use anyway?   yes it is.   I'll be taking an extended lunch tomorrow and driving to pick it up as they are closed on saturdays.    But it will be good to go.  
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  • backwatercolebackwatercole Posts: 217 Deckhand
    Good to hear.  Hope it all works out for you and your trip is successful! 
  • 1outlaw1outlaw Naples FLPosts: 1,362 Officer
    1outlaw said:
    I always buy all my parts thru these guys. 
    https://www.crowleymarine.com/parts/447796.cfm?q=6R3-85721-80-00

    Not sure when your trip is.  
    Those are the guys who screwed me.   I ordered the gauge assembly and they sent me a flush coupler for the motor.  Charged my credit card 140 bucks and sent me a 10 dollar part.  I called them, and sent 3 emails to support.  no response, finally i speak to Joseph, he says he'll void the charge and send me a return slip.  Haven't heard from them since.  So i'm filing a dispute with my credit card company, i had to reorder the parts and now they are on back order.  ETA 8/6.   Pissed doesn't quite cover it right now. 
    Hope you get it worked out! I have never had a issue with them!
    Jason :USA
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    1outlaw said:
    1outlaw said:
    I always buy all my parts thru these guys. 
    https://www.crowleymarine.com/parts/447796.cfm?q=6R3-85721-80-00

    Not sure when your trip is.  
    Those are the guys who screwed me.   I ordered the gauge assembly and they sent me a flush coupler for the motor.  Charged my credit card 140 bucks and sent me a 10 dollar part.  I called them, and sent 3 emails to support.  no response, finally i speak to Joseph, he says he'll void the charge and send me a return slip.  Haven't heard from them since.  So i'm filing a dispute with my credit card company, i had to reorder the parts and now they are on back order.  ETA 8/6.   Pissed doesn't quite cover it right now. 
    Hope you get it worked out! I have never had a issue with them!
    CC company refunded the money this morning.   That's why i always use a credit card when i shop online.   With a debit card you have to fight to get your money back with a CC it's much easier.   so i drove to Central Marine in Maitland and John had my part waiting for me.   
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  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    edited July 23 #30
    Yahtzee
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  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 12,975 AG
    Im done w this thing.   Spent the last 5 hrs trying to get it to pump oil to the tank.    Hot wired it to make sure it was not a blockage.   Checked all the connections.  Grounds.  Everything.    It pumped oil to the tank when i put power to the motor via cables.  Checked everything no joy.   The only things left to replace are the sending unit on the small tank and the module itself on the override.   Im going to have to take it to a mechanic.  I cant do anything else.  I will mix 12 gal to 1pint while im in the keys and keep the oil tank on the motor topped off thats all i can do.   Frustration  doesnt describe it.  Never had these problems w my merc. 
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