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Lake O and "burned fish" article...

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  • Reel TealReel Teal Posts: 3,927 Captain
    duckmanJR said:
    Reel Teal said:

    Just because we dont want tons of chemicals in the water 

    Do you have the actual numbers for this....or are we to accept hyperbole as a standard metric... as long as it helps the narrative  
    No but i would be willing to bet money more than 2,000 lbs of herbicide is sprayed into our waters which would equate to tons. 8 airboats with a 50lb tank is just 400lbs at one ramp at lake O. Idk how big the tanks are but a 5gallon bucket is 30lbs for reference. I dont think im speaking in hyperbole at all.
  • Reel TealReel Teal Posts: 3,927 Captain
    edited December 2019 #63
    duckmanJR said:
    FWC ignored public input on this for a long time.  Now they "get it."

    Yeah, now they are faced with undeniable evidence.  But they knew all along. Their decision to ignore competent and  honest information will not fare well for their public image in the future. This spraying thing goes far beyond hunters and fishermen.  Once it gets into the arena of soccer moms as well as more active envrionmentally-minded stakeholders, they are screwed. There have a been a very few news stories on it but the most recent ones seem to be coming more and more frequently.  If it lights off, FWC is going to get pummelled in the court of public opinion.  Thus Director Sutton's very interesting comments at the Dec meeting. They know what's coming.
    If we are discussing fish lesions....the "science" is that is stress related.....it is not caused by chemicals.

    But hey, science is boring....emotion is where it's at in todays social media world.  
    What does this say Duckman?

    Are you trying to toe a semantical line?

    Its like saying you have a weak heart and it cant handle stress yet your doctor allows you to and says that your heart wont stop from having sex, riding  rollercoasters, working out,  smoking cigarettes, drinking  alcohol etc bc they wont make your heart stop, the stress will make your heart stop. 
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,736 AG
    Reel Teal said:
    duckmanJR said:
    Reel Teal said:

    Just because we dont want tons of chemicals in the water 

    Do you have the actual numbers for this....or are we to accept hyperbole as a standard metric... as long as it helps the narrative  
    No but i would be willing to bet money more than 2,000 lbs of herbicide is sprayed into our waters which would equate to tons. 8 airboats with a 50lb tank is just 400lbs at one ramp at lake O. Idk how big the tanks are but a 5gallon bucket is 30lbs for reference. I dont think im speaking in hyperbole at all.
    So....you are weighing water and counting that ....or do you think chemicals are diluted? 

    Do the research...the numbers exist... 
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,736 AG
    Reel Teal said:
    duckmanJR said:
    FWC ignored public input on this for a long time.  Now they "get it."

    Yeah, now they are faced with undeniable evidence.  But they knew all along. Their decision to ignore competent and  honest information will not fare well for their public image in the future. This spraying thing goes far beyond hunters and fishermen.  Once it gets into the arena of soccer moms as well as more active envrionmentally-minded stakeholders, they are screwed. There have a been a very few news stories on it but the most recent ones seem to be coming more and more frequently.  If it lights off, FWC is going to get pummelled in the court of public opinion.  Thus Director Sutton's very interesting comments at the Dec meeting. They know what's coming.
    If we are discussing fish lesions....the "science" is that is stress related.....it is not caused by chemicals.

    But hey, science is boring....emotion is where it's at in todays social media world.  
    What does this say Duckman?

    Are you trying to toe a semantical line?

    Its like saying you have a weak heart and it cant handle stress yet your doctor allows you to and says that your heart wont stop from having sex, riding  rollercoasters, working out,  smoking cigarettes, drinking  alcohol etc bc they wont make your heart stop, the stress will make your heart stop. 
    Did you read what I said about stress related fish lesions ? Causeation of stress ? 

    or are we to fall back on logical fallacies and say " It's chemicals". 
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • Reel TealReel Teal Posts: 3,927 Captain
    Its not water once its mixed.



    Lee county eradicating the ever invasive spatterdock.
  • Reel TealReel Teal Posts: 3,927 Captain
    duckmanJR said:
    Reel Teal said:
    duckmanJR said:
    Reel Teal said:

    Just because we dont want tons of chemicals in the water 

    Do you have the actual numbers for this....or are we to accept hyperbole as a standard metric... as long as it helps the narrative  
    No but i would be willing to bet money more than 2,000 lbs of herbicide is sprayed into our waters which would equate to tons. 8 airboats with a 50lb tank is just 400lbs at one ramp at lake O. Idk how big the tanks are but a 5gallon bucket is 30lbs for reference. I dont think im speaking in hyperbole at all.
    So....you are weighing water and counting that ....or do you think chemicals are diluted? 

    Do the research...the numbers exist... 
    I stand by my statement. I am willing to bet money tons of chemicals, mixed or unmixed, have been sprayed into our water.
  • MRichardsonMRichardson Posts: 10,326 AG
    edited December 2019 #68
    I watched Lake Co. spraying bullrush and spatterdock last week.  I went over to where they'd been and there was not one instance of hydrilla or hycinth anywhere.  It's all brown and rotting now.  This is in Lake Apopka, the same lake they are desperately trying to get plants to grow in after making significant progress in getting P levels down from astronomical to simply horrible.  There's almost no growth around the rim of this lake.  The fact that they are even spraying it at all is astounding. 

    They "coordinate" with FWC on this so I look forward to hearing back from the county on my inquiries on the matter.  
    I have never seen live bones, but I know that they are often used by rich people to decorate the interior.
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,736 AG
    Your "statement"...is both baseless...and farcical...but that's OK. 

    You want it to fit your preconcieved and incorrect notion...
    I nor fact will convince you...and you are disinterested in doing the research to be armed with facts. 

    Let it be " Your truth " LOL 
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • Reel TealReel Teal Posts: 3,927 Captain
    edited December 2019 #70
    Prove me wrong @duckmanJR

    Over 1.5 million dollars to treat over 11,000 acres on lake o this year. But that wont equate to 50 40lb tubs of herbicide lol what is all the money being used for? Airboat gas?

    They sprayed 115lbs of herbicide in around 100acres on lake okeechobee just this week. The numbers are out there for sure. Only 1,886 lbs left to go until they get to tons....

    From their 2019-2020 management plan:
    For the floaters they spray 7fl oz of herbicide per acre. Flumioaxin and Penoxsulam. 3oz and 4oz of each chemical per acre. They are going to treat 11,000 acres of floaters at 7oz per acre. 4,812.50 pounds or 2.41 tons of chemical into the lake. Thats just floaters and just on okeechobee this year just for Applied Aquatics. There are 4 other agencies with workplans.
  • bicyclistbicyclist FlardaPosts: 1,654 Captain
    Reel Teal said:
    duckmanJR said:
    Reel Teal said:

    Just because we dont want tons of chemicals in the water 

    Do you have the actual numbers for this....or are we to accept hyperbole as a standard metric... as long as it helps the narrative  
    No but i would be willing to bet money more than 2,000 lbs of herbicide is sprayed into our waters which would equate to tons. 8 airboats with a 50lb tank is just 400lbs at one ramp at lake O. Idk how big the tanks are but a 5gallon bucket is 30lbs for reference. I dont think im speaking in hyperbole at all.

    Keep in mind a 50 gallon tank of herbicide mix has about 2.3 gallons of actually herbicide, depending on what it is used.
  • Cast_N_BlastCast_N_Blast JaxPosts: 1,437 Officer
    bicyclist said:

    Where did you find this picture? I am having trouble finding it in the links you posted. This picture is taken about 100 yards from my back yard and I cant imagine this growing there with how salty the water is! 
  • Cast_N_BlastCast_N_Blast JaxPosts: 1,437 Officer




    Hmmm found it on a different website claiming this is Palatka... its clearly the Matthews Bridge in Jacksonville. 
  • bicyclistbicyclist FlardaPosts: 1,654 Captain
    edited December 2019 #74


    bicyclist said:

    Where did you find this picture? I am having trouble finding it in the links you posted. This picture is taken about 100 yards from my back yard and I cant imagine this growing there with how salty the water is! 

    Army Corps. They have a before and after at link.

    You have a nice backyard!!!!!!!!!!!!!




  • Reel TealReel Teal Posts: 3,927 Captain
    edited December 2019 #75
    bicyclist said:
    Reel Teal said:
    duckmanJR said:
    Reel Teal said:

    Just because we dont want tons of chemicals in the water 

    Do you have the actual numbers for this....or are we to accept hyperbole as a standard metric... as long as it helps the narrative  
    No but i would be willing to bet money more than 2,000 lbs of herbicide is sprayed into our waters which would equate to tons. 8 airboats with a 50lb tank is just 400lbs at one ramp at lake O. Idk how big the tanks are but a 5gallon bucket is 30lbs for reference. I dont think im speaking in hyperbole at all.

    Keep in mind a 50 gallon tank of herbicide mix has about 2.3 gallons of actually herbicide, depending on what it is used.
    I included their workplan in the edited post.

    Puzzle lake had 265.8 lbs of chemicals sprayed into it in september.

     The pattern is that there is a lot chemical being put into our water ways. In fact TONS of it 
  • bicyclistbicyclist FlardaPosts: 1,654 Captain
    Reel Teal said:
    bicyclist said:
    Reel Teal said:
    duckmanJR said:
    Reel Teal said:

    Just because we dont want tons of chemicals in the water 

    Do you have the actual numbers for this....or are we to accept hyperbole as a standard metric... as long as it helps the narrative  
    No but i would be willing to bet money more than 2,000 lbs of herbicide is sprayed into our waters which would equate to tons. 8 airboats with a 50lb tank is just 400lbs at one ramp at lake O. Idk how big the tanks are but a 5gallon bucket is 30lbs for reference. I dont think im speaking in hyperbole at all.

    Keep in mind a 50 gallon tank of herbicide mix has about 2.3 gallons of actually herbicide, depending on what it is used.
    I included their workplan in the edited post.

    Puzzle lake had 265.8 lbs of chemicals sprayed into it in september.

     The pattern is that there is a lot chemical being put into our water ways. In fact TONS of it 

    I agree. Too much. And spraying natives is something that will never sit well with me.

    Many now say water lettuce is native, pollen found in sediments thousands of year old. It is still listed as a nuisance exotic on the FEPPC site.
  • Cast_N_BlastCast_N_Blast JaxPosts: 1,437 Officer
    bicyclist said:


    bicyclist said:

    Where did you find this picture? I am having trouble finding it in the links you posted. This picture is taken about 100 yards from my back yard and I cant imagine this growing there with how salty the water is! 

    Army Corps. They have a before and after at link.

    You have a nice backyard!!!!!!!!!!!!!




    Thank you. This is super interesting! I wonder how the fishing was back then!!
  • TGunnTGunn Posts: 1,919 Captain
    edited December 2019 #78
    duckmanJR said:
    TGunn said:
    duckmanJR said:
    Big Mak said:
    The very first thing that needs to happen is changing the laws that prohibit the return trip to the yard once the chemicals are mixed. That will immediately negate the need and environmental impact associated with DUMPING the remaining chemicals in the water once the spot treatments are carried out. Yes, you read that correctly. That is exactly what happens.

    You know that the "dumping" you are refering to is tank washout...which is mandated by the Feds. It is FRACTIONAL amounts of product...since the boss's don't enjoy waste...it effects the bottom line.

    No, it's not "washout."  Your continued ignorance of what happens here and blind defense of what happens here despite that ignorance is comical.
    Yes...comical is someone who is trying to push an agenda...  You should use that law degree to mount a suit against the state and it's contractors. 
    Sure thing.  Have your buddies over at UW-F retain me for my $600 hourly rate and I'll get right on it.  

    Might cut into your local chapter "representatives'" sporting clays budget over at Markham park though.  Not sure the organization would be willing to stand for the diminishment of the importance of personal goals for the good of the average Florida hunter based on what I've seen.

    Also Joe---don't think of me mopping the algae off the boat ramp with you as a threat to do physical harm.  Think of it more as an experiment into economical removal of aquatic vegetation.  Of course, as with your beloved spraying, there might be a little collateral damage.
  • TGunnTGunn Posts: 1,919 Captain
    edited December 2019 #79
    Big Mak said:
    Joe, what was intimated to all of us was absolutely not miniscule tank washout! It does not matter how much chemical is left after a "pre-defined grid" was sprayed during a scheduled treatment. The tanks get dumped/ emptied/ washed on the lake because they cannot transport the chemicals back to their facility on the road. That is the fact. It matters not to me what you think. Those of us there know what was said.

    I guess Skip was being honest all these years when he claimed to have watched them dump their tanks before returning to the ramp....
    It's pure comedy gold, Gene.  Joe tells us to go to meetings.  We do, and then Joe tells us that what FWC said at the meetings wasn't really said, even though we were there and Joe wasn't.  
  • Big MakBig Mak Posts: 3,374 Captain
    I can't believe Joe is actually trying to refute the notion that tons of herbicides have been/are being administered into our waters through contractual obligations.... If I didn't know better, I would say he's simply fishing for reactions...
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,736 AG
    Big Mak said:
    I can't believe Joe is actually trying to refute the notion that tons of herbicides have been/are being administered into our waters through contractual obligations.... If I didn't know better, I would say he's simply fishing for reactions...
    Stop slamming hatches !!! 
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 2,709 Captain
    edited December 2019 #82
    We are killing our waterways and aquatic ecosystems.  It can't be denied.  That is a fact.  I've watched it happen before my very eyes, in a dramatic fashion, all across the state.  I wish I could share, with those who aren't from here, what the springs, rivers, lakes, ponds, bays and coasts once looked like.  The change in only half a lifetime is disturbing.  And unacceptable.
    Has anyone noticed things getting better, anywhere, on any front?  No.  Things are getting worse for Florida's ecosystems and natural resources (think, drinking water). 
    These chemicals are in no way helping the situation.  Sure, they keep the waterways clear for navigation.  Sure, they do it cheaply.  Dirt cheap.  Sure.  But is it worth the collapse of our ecosystems?  That's what I'm watching happen.
    Might as well swim in the Hudson river.  At least they've done something to improve their situation...
    So ask yourself this.  Are these herbicides, that kill non selectively, and kill far more than just plants, and do nothing to remove nutrients... good for our ecosystems?  Good for wildlife?  Good for our drinking water?  No science needed here. Just common sense.  Everyone should be able to grasp this.
    Stop the Spraying!  There's no good reason.  And any reason, anyone comes up with, is selfish and short sighted.


    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 2,709 Captain
    I used to complain about the fact that my Dad was able to eat oysters out of Hillsborough river when he was growing up, because I couldn't eat them anywhere out of the Bay at all.  My whole life.  I don't have kids but if I did, I'd tell them that when I was growing up, I could catch a bluegill or catfish out of ANY pond or lake in Pinellas county..... and eat it!  Fast forward to today, and I dare you to show me a single pond you'd let your kid eat out of!  Doesn't exist.  That only took about 20 years.  Sad. 
    I did used to dig clams when I was a kid.  Not only can I not find them anymore.  I sure af wouldn't eat them today. 
    We have to do things to improve the situation.  Not keep making excuses for why we continue to contribute to the problem that is in our face.  It's a dire situation.  It shouldn't come down to, all we can afford to do is spray..
    The negative consequences will far out cost what we are saving by using chems now.  Short sighted..
    Since we've switched to chem only control, things have deteriorated quickly.  Brown, muddy, mucky, lifeless water is what you get using chemical control of weeds.  Stop it.
    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • PinmanPinman Posts: 2,650 Captain

    Spangler your post sums it up pretty well as far as I am concerned.

    Yeah we had Tussocks, a mud berm, Lettuce, Hyacinths, and that sinful Hydrilla on Lake O when I first started hunting there in 1978.  But the water was clean, Peppergrass grew out in the bays, the ducks and fish were around in abundance.

    Stormwater Treatment. Flow Water Equalization. Chemical Treatment..... All of that is just part of a big "experiment". I don't think you call it "science" because there is no baseline to compare it to. Unfortunately we are trapped in time while the experiment takes place. Maybe someday the Peppergrass and Coontail will grow in and keep the invasives at bay.  You and I will likely not be around to see it.

  • bicyclistbicyclist FlardaPosts: 1,654 Captain
    edited December 2019 #85
    I guess my point is we spray because of nutrients THE main problem that needs to be addressed. And if we don't spray our natural systems will be destroyed by invasive exotic monocultures that greatly harm native flora and fauna. We have to manage our systems smarter,  spray less,  develop more biocontrols AND fix our nutrient problems.
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,736 AG
    bicyclist said:
    I guess my point is we spray because of nutrients THE main problem that needs to be addressed. And if we don't spray our natural systems will be destroyed by invasive exotic monocultures that greatly harm native flora and fauna. We have to manage our systems smarter,  spray less,  develop more biocontrols AND fix our nutrient problems.
    A well reasoned response....but completely unaccptable though..

    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 2,709 Captain
    edited December 2019 #87
    You may be spraying because nutrients are causing invasive to grow out of control, but then you're just caught in a cycle which you propel.  Should I have said pedal?  Plants act as a nutrient sink.  You kill plants.  Nutrients released back into water.  Plants grow even more because even more nutrients.  More plants.  More spray.  Ad nauseum.
    Death cycle.  That's your new nickname.
    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • PinmanPinman Posts: 2,650 Captain
    edited December 2019 #88
    Theres never been an attempt at restoration of a wetland basin of this size ever attempted in the history of the world. It is a GIANT experiment, no one knows how it will turn out.  No one even knows what to do. It wasn't broke (maybe a bit off balance) but they decided to fix it.
  • JonsredfishinJonsredfishin Posts: 2,107 Captain
    edited December 2019 #89
    ?
    One president put a man on the moon.
    Another president put a man in the Lady's bathroom.
  • JonsredfishinJonsredfishin Posts: 2,107 Captain
    Sores on fish? Allow me to introduce the “Monkey Box Frog Hawg”!


    One president put a man on the moon.
    Another president put a man in the Lady's bathroom.
  • TGunnTGunn Posts: 1,919 Captain
    edited December 2019 #91
    That’s a pretty good d1ck right there. I might have to go frogging. 
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