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We’re 5 seasons into the Antler Restrictions

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  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 452 Deckhand
    edited December 2019 #92
    One thing FL doesn't lack just about anywhere there isn't concrete and St. Augustine is food. Its typically not of the highest quality though,  due to the poor soils it grows in, but its just as poor on private land as it is on public land. Few in FL feed enough through protein feeders or food plots to make a difference to their nutrition. It IS attractive though and can help focus their movements to a smaller area where they can be patterned more effectively though.
  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 452 Deckhand
    edited December 2019 #93
    spangler said:
    Forgot about this, from fwc website.  It seems that they correlate ARs to population goals:


    ARs and population density goals are different, though distantly related issues. Using ARs to help more yearling bucks live long enough to shed their first set of antlers DOES increase their number in the population (assuming that wasn't the case previously), so it DOES add to the overall number of deer on the landscape, although not nearly as efficiently as manipulating the doe harvest rate does. Thats why the FWC uses the number of antlerless days in each DMU to increase or decrease the harvest of does, so that densities will move in the direction that most respondents said they want to see them go in.
  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 452 Deckhand
    Easy way to remember:

        Method=Goal
              ARs=Age
    Doe Days=Density
  • OGBOHICAOGBOHICA floridaPosts: 210 Deckhand
    Joel lunchbucket = MYFWCC im convinced with these ridiculous replies
  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 452 Deckhand
    edited December 2019 #96
    Wouldn't expect anything less from you, Rich! LOL
  • OGBOHICAOGBOHICA floridaPosts: 210 Deckhand
    You have me mistaken for someone else Corey.. BOHICA
  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 452 Deckhand
    Not possible to mistake you for anyone else. Thankfully, you're one of a kind!
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 2,709 Captain
    So, if doe take correlates to population, shouldn't non quota wmas have the highest densities?
    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • GRIZZLGRIZZL Posts: 830 Officer
    AR's are working. Here is my favorite WMA. 2015 didn't have AR's (110 killed -Anterless-Button's Killed 37)
    Now look at the following years..1st year WAY down -again look at button bucks..WAY Down. The succeeding years show harvest #'s getting back up with Button bucks still DOWN. Racked bucks are getting back up to 2015.
    This trend should continue with bucks getting older. Total kills are down 25% so more deer are staying in the woods to live to next season. (account in the hurricane damage/kills) the 5th years is getting close to "normal" harvest numbers. It may take 6-7 years to fully recoup harvest #'s.

    Yes..it may be harder to take a buck now...but that's the fun part of hunting . Look at the doe harvest #'s..all are UP so if you want meat..shoot a doe

    go to your WMA and look for yourself

    https://myfwc.com/hunting/harvest-reports/



  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 137 Deckhand
    edited December 2019 #101
    spangler said:
    So, if doe take correlates to population, shouldn't non quota wmas have the highest densities?
    Are you suggesting that all non quota WMAs have no doe harvest?
  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 137 Deckhand
    Grizzl, what you are seeing is what was shown with the test WMA's that went to AR's before it was implemented statewide. Buck harvest falls off first year but picks backup in following years.
  • OGBOHICAOGBOHICA floridaPosts: 210 Deckhand
    wayvis said:
    Grizzl, what you are seeing is what was shown with the test WMA's that went to AR's before it was implemented statewide. Buck harvest falls off first year but picks backup in following years.
    How many yrs?
  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 137 Deckhand
    OGBOHICA said:
    wayvis said:
    Grizzl, what you are seeing is what was shown with the test WMA's that went to AR's before it was implemented statewide. Buck harvest falls off first year but picks backup in following years.
    How many yrs?
    what do you mean, not a mind reader.
  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 452 Deckhand
    As usual, he wants you to give him information that he could easily gather himself, if he cared to.
  • ShineShine Posts: 833 Officer
    Geetch said:
    Shine, cooler temps are conducive to antler development? I’ve never heard that. Where did you find that info? 
    The cooler the ambient temperature, the larger the animal will grow to compensate.  A calorie is a unit of heat.  Why deer are larger in Saskatchewan than everglades.  There is no genetic advantage or need to be a 275 pound buck in south Florida.  Just the opposite, smaller matches tropical climates need and is the advantage.  Hence, you are unlikely to see Boone and Crockett deer in much of the south.  
    http://images.app.goo.gl/1ky7KamitwL5wU5X8

  • ShineShine Posts: 833 Officer
    Do a search on "Bergmann's Rule." That is the basis for relationship between climate and mammals.
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 3,065 Moderator
    OGBOHICA said:
    james 14 said:
    N. Cook said:
    we know it takes five does to produce one legal. three point on a side, buck in most of Florida....all the peninsula.....
    That’s highly problematic in itself.  Could it not be the reason it takes so many does to raise one deer to maturity is because the does have their fawning season spread out unnaturally long because there’s too many does and not enough bucks to breed them, making the fawns more susceptible to predators?  
    That was the main reason for the antler restrictions. Putting more bucks in the woods tightens up the rut window and increases fawn recruitment.

    Having followed the entire process I have never seen or heard mention as this being the reason for AR's, not one time
    It was said, ad nauseum, on this very forum. The BOHICA crowd kept projecting sinister motives and a few of us just kept restating the goal as posted in the quote.
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 3,065 Moderator
    OGBOHICA said:
    What you are saying here James is that mother nature has not done a good job at keeping the deer density accordingly to the amount of deer the entire state of florida's woods can carry. And some Biologist new to Florida developed this plan after carefully analyzing each and every DMU

    Mother Nature isn't shooting deer all over the state every year.
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 3,065 Moderator
    james 14 said:
    I have seen dramatic results where I hunt.

    Year 1 - No change obviously.
    Year 2 - Slight increase in buck activity and more activity earlier and later in season.
    Year 3 - Even more buck activity. Approx. 20 buck sightings on public lands.
    Year 4 - Major increase in buck activity. I saw a buck literally every single day I hunted. Over 25 sightings.
    Year 5 - Covered up in bucks all year. 31 sightings to this point.

    What I haven't seen is an increase in big bucks. But if I wanted to I could've filled two limits the last two seasons.
    Do you know or can you speculate what factors may have contributed to the success of ARs in your locality?
    I think the real question would be why they may NOT work in certain areas...or why the buck sightings don't increase on some areas.
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 3,065 Moderator
    james 14 said:
    I have seen dramatic results where I hunt.

    Year 1 - No change obviously.
    Year 2 - Slight increase in buck activity and more activity earlier and later in season.
    Year 3 - Even more buck activity. Approx. 20 buck sightings on public lands.
    Year 4 - Major increase in buck activity. I saw a buck literally every single day I hunted. Over 25 sightings.
    Year 5 - Covered up in bucks all year. 31 sightings to this point.

    What I haven't seen is an increase in big bucks. But if I wanted to I could've filled two limits the last two seasons.
    James. 
    As much I want to believe you I almost want to pull the bs flag.

    its sounds to good to be true. 
    All the parks I hunt (many) I haven’t been much of an increase yet to brag about it. 
    If you've been on this forum long enough you know I wouldn't post something like this and be lying. I've kept careful count of buck sightings since I first noticed increased activity. Yes, some of these are the same buck BUT the point here is that bucks are consistently moving during daylight hours from at least mid-September to Thanksgiving in a place where I would see most of my bucks in mid_October. The place would also be a ghost town by Halloween. Not anymore.
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 3,065 Moderator
    spangler said:
    I'm still waiting for someone to tell us how ARs results in MORE deer. 


    The specific APRs were developed using antler measurement/age data across the state for various WMAs. They were set with the goal of protecting 80% of 1.5 year old bucks while ensuring most (I forget the %) 2.5 year olds are legal for harvest. By protecting these bucks you're increasing the total number of bucks running around the woods. More bucks in the woods creates more competition. More competition forces bucks to get on their feet more and it also ensures more does on bred on their first cycle. When more does are bred on their first cycle it causes most of the fawns to be born at the optimal time and at the SAME time which is key to preventing fawn predation.

    What all this means is an increase in deer numbers and an increase in buck activity. It's been successfully done just as describe above all over the country including several WMAs in the state before enacted statewide.
  • swampdogswampdog Central FloridaPosts: 1,060 Officer
    If we protect younger bucks and the harvest lags a little in the early going, it has to equal more deer in the woods. 
  • gritsnhuntin1gritsnhuntin1 Posts: 1,180 Officer
    edited December 2019 #114
    swampdog said:
    If we protect younger bucks and the harvest lags a little in the early going, it has to equal more deer in the woods. 
    Anyone seeing more deer in three lakes? Doe harvest has been restricted in addition to protecting younger bucks. 
  • HollywoodcorollaHollywoodcorolla Posts: 474 Deckhand
    The bucks are there. But they are hiding by now. 
    Archery and powder was slow. The rut was gun opener this year. And once the rut was over they went back to hiding. 
  • Big MakBig Mak Posts: 3,367 Captain
    And to think, 3L used to give up 900 bucks a year back in the day... That was a time when most of our illustrious forum members were either still sucking their thumbs or still being developed in their daddys sack...
  • HollywoodcorollaHollywoodcorolla Posts: 474 Deckhand
    james 14 said:
    james 14 said:
    I have seen dramatic results where I hunt.

    Year 1 - No change obviously.
    Year 2 - Slight increase in buck activity and more activity earlier and later in season.
    Year 3 - Even more buck activity. Approx. 20 buck sightings on public lands.
    Year 4 - Major increase in buck activity. I saw a buck literally every single day I hunted. Over 25 sightings.
    Year 5 - Covered up in bucks all year. 31 sightings to this point.

    What I haven't seen is an increase in big bucks. But if I wanted to I could've filled two limits the last two seasons.
    James. 
    As much I want to believe you I almost want to pull the bs flag.

    its sounds to good to be true. 
    All the parks I hunt (many) I haven’t been much of an increase yet to brag about it. 
    If you've been on this forum long enough you know I wouldn't post something like this and be lying. I've kept careful count of buck sightings since I first noticed increased activity. Yes, some of these are the same buck BUT the point here is that bucks are consistently moving during daylight hours from at least mid-September to Thanksgiving in a place where I would see most of my bucks in mid_October. The place would also be a ghost town by Halloween. Not anymore.
    Ok ill bite. But the ar has nothing to do what’s going on. There is another factor that’s happening in your area then. 

    You must have found that one unicorn spot but the rest of areas.... very little improvement. 

  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 452 Deckhand
    No wonder their neighbors love having them next door so much! LOL
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 3,065 Moderator
    james 14 said:
    james 14 said:
    I have seen dramatic results where I hunt.

    Year 1 - No change obviously.
    Year 2 - Slight increase in buck activity and more activity earlier and later in season.
    Year 3 - Even more buck activity. Approx. 20 buck sightings on public lands.
    Year 4 - Major increase in buck activity. I saw a buck literally every single day I hunted. Over 25 sightings.
    Year 5 - Covered up in bucks all year. 31 sightings to this point.

    What I haven't seen is an increase in big bucks. But if I wanted to I could've filled two limits the last two seasons.
    James. 
    As much I want to believe you I almost want to pull the bs flag.

    its sounds to good to be true. 
    All the parks I hunt (many) I haven’t been much of an increase yet to brag about it. 
    If you've been on this forum long enough you know I wouldn't post something like this and be lying. I've kept careful count of buck sightings since I first noticed increased activity. Yes, some of these are the same buck BUT the point here is that bucks are consistently moving during daylight hours from at least mid-September to Thanksgiving in a place where I would see most of my bucks in mid_October. The place would also be a ghost town by Halloween. Not anymore.
    Ok ill bite. But the ar has nothing to do what’s going on. There is another factor that’s happening in your area then. 

    You must have found that one unicorn spot but the rest of areas.... very little improvement. 

    It has worked in many areas across the country. Like I said in another reply if it's not working on a particular property then there are other questions to be asked. And just because one person isn't seeing more bucks or deer overall doesn't mean it's not working.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,429 AG
    GRIZZL said:
    spangler said:
    I'm still waiting for someone to tell us how ARs results in MORE deer. 


    For one thing it makes the shooter LOOK and Count. That means the shooter has to have a clearer sight picture and have a "better" shot than just pot shooting (Brown is down). So logically, there should be less wounds and unrecoverable kills. THEN you have the EXPERIENCE factor of the deer. A buck that has survived a hunting season will have better survival skills the next and the next..and so on (yes..it gets harder to see and shoot them but they are there-as was stated earlier my me and others- more on camera, more seen for those who can find em and more buck sign). THEN you have more bucks to breed the Does rather than few bucks trying to breed all those protected does. More Bucks breed MORE does....

    Does logic exist here or not....

    Like I said..AR's are working in the two WMA's I hunt. The hurricane(s) may have effected the areas you all are working to reduce sightings.
    and your logic would ban dog hunters (which I have said all along is one of Cory's goals)..


    kinda funny is the amount of shooters asking for blood trail dogs on FB, either you still hunters are seeing more deer or y'all really suck at shooting.


    or a combo of both.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • joelunchbucketjoelunchbucket Posts: 452 Deckhand
    I usually agree with you Art, but I’m having difficulty seeing anything in the recent changes to the FWC’s deer management program that could logically be construed as an attempt to ban dog hunting.

    At the request of dog hunters, the forked antler rule was applied to the DMUs where dog hunting is most prevalent, to better accommodate that method of deer hunting, while still meeting the FWC’s objective of getting most yearling bucks through the season.

    Bag limits don’t reduce anyone’s ability to run their dogs. A dog hunter may need to let someone else pull the trigger, if they fill their bag before the end of the season. But that’s not a ban either.

    Is there another change that you are referring to maybe?
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