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Rec v. Comm - change quotas?

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  • gandrfabgandrfab Posts: 21,685 AG
    We haven't had a shortage of ars. What we did have was some college grads (scientist) that couldn't find ars so in their scientific conclusion there was a shortage of ars.
    College grads wrote the paper (best science available) and here we are arguing.
  • tarponbro1tarponbro1 jacksonvillePosts: 290 Deckhand
    A#1, are long lines still allowed for snapper and grouper?

  • Paul_APaul_A FloridaPosts: 5 Deckhand
    edited July 2019 #34
    gandrfab said:
    Paul_A said:
    Unless and until recreational fisherman have realistic year round quotas there should be no commercial fishing. 

    The people who have made the investment in the hobby should be the first ones to benefit from increased quota. This way the greatest number of people can utilize the resource.

    The commies would like you to believe commercial fishing feeds the people but the people who can afford to buy ars at the market are the same people who can afford to own a boat.
    The greater number of people don't own boats or fish. If they are going to have snapper they have to buy it at the fish market.

    Yes. The same could be said of whitetail deer, ringneck pheasant or bobwhite quail.

    If you want to eat those you have to buy a gun and maybe a dog, train the dog, learn how to shoot and then trudge around for hours till you kill something.

    Or, buy chicken or beef.

    The same should be true of snapper, grouper and any other fish that is commonly caught recreationally.

    Plenty of farm raised tilapia, trout and catfish if you don't want to or can't buy a boat.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,574 Captain
    "I think hook and line commercial fishermen have a right to catch red snapper just like recreational fishermen do." 
    Absolutely!  On the Florida Middle Grounds we sometimes fish side-by-side with the commercial fishermen:

    "The greater number of people don't own boats or fish. If they are going to have snapper they have to buy it at the fish market."   
    This supports the hard working commercial fisherman, the markets, as well as providing fish for those who cannot catch their own. 

    "Red snapper should be closed for both commercial and recreational fishermen during spawning season if the fish don't spawn for months at a time."
    Absolutely:  The recreational 'sector' is not open during spawning. The commercial IFQ system allows for 12 months out of the year fishing. This needs to be addressed!

     "are there still longlines and/or fish traps allowed in the Gulf of Mexico or the USA's southeastern portion of the Atlantic ocean?"
    No traps but longlines are permitted in parts of the Gulf; not allowed on the Middle Grounds; not sure about the Atlantic..They should be outlawed everywhere:

    "One reason I like the concept of tags is that fishermen could keep more than one fish - perhaps as many as 4 or 5 per day until they used up their tags. They might also be allowed to buy more tags for the year up to a certain number
    Yes, Walmart would sell tags because they also sell fising licenses"

    Would work well if Walmart makes the same profit from tags as from fishing licenses. 


    " Doing it this way might also spread out the pressure on the fish if a longer season is allowed" 
    As well as a safer one. We could stay home during:

    "I like fishing for red snapper because they tend to be bigger fish than mangroves...

     so if I only catch a couple I'll bring home plenty of fish to eat."
    Plenty of the best of the best:

    "I caught more than my limit of red snapper but only caught one mangrove which surprised me"
    Red Snapper are very aggressive. They often take over the entire reef at the expense of other fish:


     " I hope the red snapper season will be lengthened in the near future and recreational fishermen will be able to keep at least two red snapper per day both on the Gulf and Atlantic waters. "

    This is what we are fighting for! 

    Great points Guys; very constructive.  This is what our fishery needs! 



      
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,698 AG
    A#1, are long lines still allowed for snapper and grouper?

    yes

    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,698 AG
    Bob, ARS are full of roe when the rec season is open.

    Bob there is thousands of hours of observer coverage on the longline boats, why don't you do a little research on the turtle and bird incidental take instead of spouting off some PETA BS..
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Reel-LuckyReel-Lucky Oldsmar, FLPosts: 3,264 Moderator
    Off to Con Fron land. Sheesh, life's too short.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,698 AG
    Thank you, it's where it should have been 3-4days ago.

    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • retiredviejoretiredviejo San PedroPosts: 274 Deckhand
    ANUMBER1 said:
    Thank you, it's where it should have been 3-4days ago.

    Exactly, to take the spotlight off commercials who **** and pillage a free resource for their own benefit and then gripe about when they can't steal enough. 
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,574 Captain
    edited July 2019 #41
    "a little research on the turtle and bird incidental take"
    No need!   Have spent many hours on long line boats. Have seed first hand the destruction they cause.
    Commercial fishing:   Adds jobs, great for the economy, and provides fish for those not fortunate enough to be able to catch their own.  
    Properly managed there is a place for both rec & commercial. The commercial fisherman works under a very strict IFQ system. In addition, a working VMS system is required. NOAA knows every move they make. It's a hard way to make a living. It's most often not a question of getting rich, but surviving. 
    Our # 1 problem is not the commercial fisherman, but accountability. 
    What is needed more than anything is accurate, up-to-date, data... Data to establish possession & seasons that reflect what is REALLY out there. 
    On the recreational side dock surveys and random phone calls prove little to nothing. NOAA can interpret the data to show whatever it is they want to show. 
    On federally permitted head/charter boats the accountability is there:
    grouper & snapper tally sheet:

    I was on board when the FWC boarded the Florida Fisherman ll. We were 100 miles off Madeira Beach. They were extremely pleased with the Florida's on-going fish count:

    This accountability is why the for-hire 'sector' 2019 Gulf of Mexico American Red Snapper season last from June 1 until August 2. 
    Many suggestions have been discussed as to how to increase accountability for the recreational fisherman. 
    One idea calls for a 'tag' system. This could possibly lead to  realistic catch numbers.
    But they are inherent problems. How would the tags be distributed? Would the $$$ raised go back into the fishery, or into the hands of those who buy & sell tags for profit?
    This continues to be a problem with the commercial IFQ system as IFQ's are bought & sold for profit. 
    Hopefully these problems can be worked out and everyone can better participate in what the Sunshine State has to offer.  


  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,010 AG
    edited July 2019 #42
    Not when someone spreads false predictions and conspiracy theory.  When that’s done people who should agree don’t. 

    In fairness, Bob, your last post is your first reasonable post in this topic in a while and I agree completely. 

    Well said. 
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,574 Captain
    "false predictions and conspiracy theory"   Denial = control of the many by the few! 
    NOAA, EDF, Pew, Walton Foundation, etc. are well financed and united. 
    We are none of the above! 

    " I agree completely. "
    WHAT?   You must be sick! 

    Leaving for the Florida Middle Grounds and beyond for the last ARS 39 hour trip of the season. Will provide full report. 

    This is from August last year:



  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    Not when someone spreads false predictions and conspiracy theory.  When that’s done people who should agree don’t. 

    The idea of fish tags is not false nor conspiracy theory - it is still ongoing.  The Environmental Defense Fund laid out it's Plan in 2009, and which the Gulf Council/NOAA Fisheries are in mid-process of implementing.  The Plan included Sector Separation (a prerequisite for Catch Shares in the recreational fisheries), Electronic Logbooks (just now being implemented in the Gulf charter boats), IFQs for the Gulf for-hire boats (Catch Shares will raise its ugly head in 4-5 years once the charter boats have established catch histories via ELBs).  The Plan calls for harvest tags (fish tags) for the private recs.   The Plan calls for inter-sector trading between the commercial and recreational sector, creating a whole new market for the Sea Lords.

    Catch Shares have never been just about red snapper - the Plan is to expand them to every single species managed by the Gulf Council/NOAA Fisheries.

    The Plan also shows how EDF funded/created The Charter Fishermans Association (formerly SOS Group), which gives the illusion that there is grass-roots support for Catch Shares when in reality CFA is just a puppet organization, funded, controlled and directed by EDF.   

    If you believe that this Plan is not ongoing, then I suppose you also believe Hillary Clinton should be President.

    Environmental Defense Fund Progress Report

    Catch shares are the default tool for managing fisheries in the Gulf of Mexico region


    Over the past year, EDF has helped propel the commercial grouper/tilefish IFQ plan toward implementation, advanced the goal of catch share management for king mackerel and all remaining Gulf reef fish species, helped create essential management building blocks for catch shares in the for-hire sport fishing sector, and continued to support the nation's first industry alliance dedicated to promoting catch shares.

    With the vital help of our industry partnerships, we recently ushered the grouper/tilefish IFQ plan to final passage by the Gulf Council in January (13-4 vote in favor). The Secretary of Commerce approved the plan in August and it is set to begin on January 1, 2010. However, higher than expected interactions with threatened sea turtles added a wrinkle to the program. In May, NMFS implemented an emergency closure of the longline reef fishery (of which the grouper/tilefish fishery is a part) to help resolve the problem. To keep fishermen on the water, we targeted converting 50 percent of the fleet, or approximately 50 vessels, to vertical, or ‘bandit’ gear, which has been proven to cause far fewer turtle interactions. EDF immediately launched a grant program for conversion of longline vessels to the vertical gear. To date, applications have been approved to convert 50 vessels, and 45 have converted. Offering the industry an option for staying in business has gone a long way to solidify relationships and trust with both fishermen and regulators.

    Our work to promote catch share management for all Gulf reef fish continues to bear fruit. In June, at our urging, the Gulf Council established a new advisory panel to explore a catch share plan for all remaining reef fish, including three subgroups: commercial, recreational for-hire and private anglers. EDF and key allies have secured voting positions on the panel. We expect that the commercial sub-group will easily move forward with a plan to add all remaining reef fish (19 more species in total, including amberjack and gray triggerfish) into the existing IFQ program. The for-hire and private angler sub-groups will explore catch share and accountability measures for reef fish, including red snapper and grouper. The recreational discussions will undoubtedly be long, heated and challenging. Part of their charge is to discuss intersector trading. 

    The work we are doing with a core group of for-hire recreational fishermen, whose movement we helped develop and continue to support, called SOS (Save Our Sector), will be important to continue to move catch shares forward in the for-hire sector of the recreational red snapper fishery. SOS now has over 200 supporters across all five Gulf states. This membership, which includes boat owners and crew members, reflects a significant portion of the 1,100 licenses in the for-hire fleet. The group’s work was a key factor in the Gulf Council’s October decision to consider separation of the recreational sector into for-hire and private angler sectors in the generic Annual Catch Limit/Accountability Measures amendment, which will be subject to public hearings in either December or January and likely voted on next summer. The amendment will form the foundation for a for-hire IFQ and harvest tags for private anglers. 

    To demonstrate that vessel monitoring systems and electronic logbooks can work in for-hire recreational fisheries and provide the accountability necessary for catch shares, EDF is conducting a two-year pilot project with SOS. Internal discussions with NMFS officials indicate strong agency support for the SOS management plan, which includes use of electronic logbooks, and is resulting in meetings and dialogue among the group, NMFS officials and key members of Congress. While working with key for-hire leadership to develop an IFQ concept design for-hire catch share, we funded and worked with SOS leadership to launch an SOS web site to serve as a consistent source of information for interested parties. 

  • Funny story about fish traps.
    We found one off the beach in Boca back in my college days. It was filled with grouper and muttons. First time we emptied it we  filled 4 laundry baskets full of nice fish, moved it and then monitored it for nearly a year.
    Every week we went back and harvested fish dinner for the next week. 
    Sad day when we went there one afternoon and it was gone. Oh well we had the best food in the entire engineering department for that year!
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,574 Captain
    edited August 2019 #46
    "If you believe that this Plan is not ongoing, then I suppose you also believe Hillary Clinton should be President."
    Very well said! 
  • snake 166snake 166 Posts: 101 Deckhand
    This accountability is why the for-hire 'sector' 2019 Gulf of Mexico American Red Snapper season last from June 1 until August 2. 
    Many suggestions have been discussed as to how to increase accountability for the recreational fisherman. 
    One idea calls for a 'tag' system. This could possibly lead to  realistic catch numbers.
    But they are inherent problems. How would the tags be distributed? Would the $$$ raised go back into the fishery, or into the hands of those who buy & sell tags for profit?
    This continues to be a problem with the commercial IFQ system as IFQ's are bought & sold for profit. 
    Hopefully these problems can be worked out and everyone can better participate in what the Sunshine State has to offer.  

    Bob.  I would be more impressed if the Fore-hire sector demonstration of accountablity was illustrated with a clipboard and tally sheet hanging on the bulkhead as opposed to a hastily tallyed on a paperplate rounded up  from the galley. 
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,574 Captain
    Whatever works!
    The mates are extremely busy. Paper plate works well on the deck for on the spot recording. 
    THEN:



    We are very serious about accurate data collection & reporting. 
    FWC  biologist are always welcome.  
    Whatever works! 
  • CaptDavidGonzalezCaptDavidGonzalez Atlanta/SarasotaPosts: 112 Deckhand
    Free advertising. Great!

  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,574 Captain
    edited August 2019 #50
    If on the water record keeping in "Free advertising" wish more did it! 
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    What new accountability measures have been implemented for the Gulf charter boats since Sector Separation was implemented?
    They claim to be more “accountable” but NOBODY in the NMFS/Gulf Council can give me the Texas charter boat landings when asked. Fish tags are a terrible idea - Roy Crabtree told me that if fish tags were implemented in 2016, private recreational fishermen would get 0 to 1 red snapper tag per person for the season.  It’s simply another tool in the EDF/NMFS/Gulf Council toolbox to limit our access as well as monetize our ability to keep a fish - we would be required to pay somebody for the “right” to keep that fish.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,574 Captain
    All I know is the Florida Fisherman collects very accurate data and shares with NMFS. No idea what they do with the data. 
    Tags: Not too much in favor of them because of probable abuse by the NOAA gang. But somehow, someway, better accountability must be realized if we are to ever have the 'open-assess' we all want.
    Tags or no tags as long as Crabtree and EDF's NOAA are part of the picture "toolbox to limit access" will continue to be the name of the game. 
    Problem is they are well funded, and united. We are neither.
     "Free advertising. Great!"   Many would rather challenge fellow sportsmen that challenge NOAA. 
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,010 AG
    edited October 2019 #53
    Florida just announced a longer recreational red snapper season that applies in state and federal waters, and still not a recreational fish tag in sight.

    Funny how that works.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,698 AG
    yes, it is..

    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,574 Captain
    "Funny how that works."   Nothing "Funny" about 6 days... Should be 60.! 
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