May 2019 Catch and Release Update for the Mosquito Lagoon

Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
edited May 11 in General Fishing #1
So on Friday May 10th, 2019 we were able to take out several Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge Staff along with the two regional managers for the USFWS Department of Interior on the Mosquito Lagoon. Captain Billy Rotne, Captain Chris Myers and myself took them on an in depth tour of the Mosquito Lagoon and its dirty waters, missing grass on the flats and decline of fish. The two regional refuge managers had never been on the Mosquito Lagoon to see it. We showed them areas of concern, showed them areas of massive change and went over several options, science and suggestions. Suggestions from us and them. We explained to them in depth on how the fishing has declined so much over the years and how the public in general feels about this estuary and its future direction. We also discussed getting more law enforcement out there, how laws get changed, and of course the politics behind it, that sometimes can be severe red tape. But over all this was the best meeting I personally have experienced with the USFWS on the condition of the Mosquito Lagoon.

Billy, Chris and I presented the Refuge Supervisor Area II Florida, Caribbean, and Gulf Coast (LA, MS, AL) and the assistant Refuge Supervisor/Gulf Restoration Caribbean Islands, Florida, Coastal AL/MS/LA USFW  Southeast Region with sound data and the over now 6000 signature petition to make the Mosquito Lagoon, Canaveral National Seashore and Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge go catch and release for certain species. They said this petition is very powerful and will get FWC on board with their thoughts. They said things will go a lot better if FWC can agree with this action/science, so a more in depth scientific approach will be done specifically for the Mosquito Lagoon. Before FWC lumped a massive region into data, but now will focus on the lagoon itself with separate data.

This is a quote from Billy's FB Page on how the event went and I could not agree more:
"Yesterday’s tour with the southeast region USFWS supervisors went very well, as they expressed their desire to better manage the resource. We need defensible science that supports what we all see on the lagoon, and now that process has been started. When the data aligns with what we all know to be true, action can then take place."

"The future looks bright even though the water currently looks brown."

In the mean time the petition has been put back up online at this link below. So if you have not signed it or know of someone who has not signed it then please do so or pass it on. Thank you very much for everyone's support on this.                                                            












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Replies

  • fish_stixfish_stix Posts: 1,332 Officer
    Wht about the 50,000 or so of us who like to eat some of what we catch. Most sport fishermen already C&R most of the fish we catch. Why not concentrate on water quality issues that have caused the problems. You can C&R every dang fish in Mosquito Lagoon and it won't do one single thing to improve water quality. When sewage and runoff laws are enforced by counties and the state with appropriate fines then you'll see an immediate improvement in the fishing. Until then you're just doing political nonsense that the counties and state and Federal Gov't have been doing since they discovered the big money pot that Florida is. More Yankees in, more money in the pot, and less interest in stopping problems.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,440 Officer


    I got a feeling if you truthfully pay attention to the reply's you receive here you will find you are ill suited to explain to anyone " how the public in general feels about this estuary and its future direction".

    If it is that bad, stop pounding the resource to put money in your pocket. You have championed removing commercial fishing from these areas yet you continue to conduct commerce on these waters every chance you get. Hypocrite much? ;)

    Following your posts over the years it is blatantly clear you are most interested in what suits your own selfish agenda and always finding a fish every trip for your guided clients to catch, not necessarily what is best for the fish stocks or habitat.

    Have a nice day. :)



    I say......I say son.......new & improved my tail feathers.

  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 10,459 AG
    I'm with CB...

    Cavanaugh's suggestion is like a fart, lot of smell but very little substance.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 1,662 Captain
    Here's how my argument goes..
    Pollution has devastated the MINWR ecosystem
    Cavanaugh68 is a charter fisherman
    Therefore, ban all Charter fisherman from MINWR

  • Flounderman3Flounderman3 Posts: 162 Deckhand
    Bumpkins post was 1000% correct. All he is doing is protecting his job and cash flow and nothing else. Talk about a hypocrite....”hey commercial guy don’t take fish from there to sell, I need my charters to catch fish so I can get paid”
  • fish_stixfish_stix Posts: 1,332 Officer
    LOL! Cavanaugh68 it appears you've run into some folks that don't have your best interests at heart. Try the local women's clubs; they'll usually buy into whatever scam comes along if you'll give a talk at one of their tea and cheese gatherings. In the meantime let me suggest you go talk to the Pew Foundation or Greenpeace, PITA, etc. They're all into stopping folks from recreational fishing so you'll get better reception from them.
  • MRichardsonMRichardson Posts: 9,123 Admiral
    I personally don't care what Cav's motivation is.  As long as the Lagoon is a cesspool, it's probably a good idea to lighten up on the take until we see just how far it spirals.

    If you don't fish there,  you don't know how bad it really is.  And if you want to keep fish, go somewhere else.
    I have never seen live bones, but I know that they are often used by rich people to decorate the interior.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 1,662 Captain
    Sure, in light of that argument, why not just shut fishing down there all together. Sounds like it needs to be a no fishing zone it's so bad
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    edited May 13 #10
    You guys wonder why a lot of the old time members of this site never get on here anymore and comment. These comments above hit the target and explain that reason. It is because a massive gang up, so people said F this site and left it. They read it and laugh at the things the small niche of you talk about and how you think you are cool.  Same thing when a newbie makes a comment, or post a video, a select few are just D's to them and then they never comment again. It is too bad because this FS forum used to be the place to go.

    So any how let me explain a few things to you. Does not bother me what you say negatively about this or me, I have grown used to it and I know where I stand with things.

    fishstx  - get your 50,000 petition on line and turn it over to FWC and the USFWS, because the ones that want to keep fish are far and few any more, ON THE MOSQUITO LAGOON that is, not everywhere. Other than these 5 above. LOL Seems like when this CPR thing is brought up you guys think we are talking about the earth going CPR. So to be crystal clear. ONLY the Mosquito Lagoon legal federal boundaries are in question for said petition above. So relax.

    Yes the water quality is a main issue, a big issue but also a separate issue. An issue that will take years to fix if not longer. The whole purpose of this happening is to save what little fish are left inside the "Mosquito Lagoon" until they can recover along with the grass. If not then when the grass and water quality gets fixed there wont be any fish left for them to enjoy the grass or clean water. They are not making the area  from Flagler to Miami CPR. Let us just see what comes about FWC doing a new "in depth" survey on the lagoon, you guys always want science and not what a guide has to say! I only report what I see and what my days are like out there. And I see a **** out here. So if you guys see epicness on the lagoon please tell me where. So when the time comes if FWC says the lagoon needs to be CPR then let it be.

    For every fishing guide who is operating a "daily" charter on the Mosquito Lagoon there are probably 25,000 rec anglers pounding it. You want to include stats include that one. In central Florida there are roughly 9 million people living here. So if 2 million of them fished here and say half those keep fish, well you do the math on who is keeping the fish more than others. Where do you think these rec anglers go to keep fish??? They are not driving to South Carolina or Miami on the weekends. The lagoon is the closest body of inshore saltwater to central Florida.  

    Only 80 guides on the lagoon, 80, yes EIGHTY. The park/refuge capped the list. And out of those 80 guides I would say 60 of them are CPR and only fish the lagoon here and there. So for you guys to blame guides as the root of the problem is a joke. I mean really. I for one do less than 5% of my charters any longer within the legal federal Boundaries of the Mosquito Lagoon due to what this thread is about, lack of fish out there. Lack of water quality. So if you want to stop pounding the lagoon, stop fishing for all there, not just guides, especially rec anglers because they are the majority of keeping fish. That is a fact. Now we have also begged the refuge to make guides go CPR and they have not done that either.

    spangler - Flounderman3 your comment is just like CountryBumkin's. Why does everyone think a single fishing guide is satan like. Look around at your neighbors and everyone else who "keeps" fish", again just not a fishing guide who keeps fish. I know over here in Oak Hill the residents and snow birds wipe areas out daily, day after day while they stay here or live here year round. They keep every single fish they can every time they go out, then go back out the next day and rinse and repeat. Then they complain on how there are no fish to catch. So do not preach to me how guides are the devil. I know of one rec angler who has kept more fish this past year than most guides do in a lifetime. So your attack on guides here will not work. You may fall for this but not most.

    Out of curiosity I would like to know where out of the 5 of you above here, I take it "you" fish the Mosquito Lagoon" on a regular basis? I do not know where you reside or the areas you fish. So I am wondering something. If you fish the lagoon on a regular basis you are telling me that it is epic out there? You are telling me that you have gone out here a few days ago and saw schools of bulls roaming, giant seatrout hitting topwaters all morning long, thousands of black drum cruising Tiger Shoals, so many tailing redfish you had to quit fishing? if not then you are commenting on area you know nothing about. Think about that one. It would be like me saying the fishing is so awesome in the keys yesterday, when I did not fish there. Just curious.

    Flounderman3 this petition is not trying to ban commercial harvest and allow only guides to keep them only. It is for a zero possession for everyone, recreational and commercial. Which a fishing guide under FWC law falls under recreational rules/laws. So this is going to benefit you just as much. And would be only for certain species, not everything.

    Also if this were about guides only then why is over 99.999999% of this petition signed by the average angler who is "NOT" a fishing guide or affiliated with one?

    Country Bumpkin - I want to thank you. For following my posts over the years. You clearly have an interest in what I say or you would not be obsessed with what I have to say. Thanks!

    "Following your posts over the years it is blatantly clear you are most interested in what suits your own selfish agenda and always finding a fish every trip for your guided clients to catch, not necessarily what is best for the fish stocks or habitat.

    Have a nice day."

    This comment quote from you right here: "what is best for the fish stocks or habitat."

    Saving the last few whales...






  • MRichardsonMRichardson Posts: 9,123 Admiral
    spangler said:
    Sure, in light of that argument, why not just shut fishing down there all together. Sounds like it needs to be a no fishing zone it's so bad
    In light of that argument? 

    You're just being petulant now.  Fish somewhere else.  Go away. 
    I have never seen live bones, but I know that they are often used by rich people to decorate the interior.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 1,662 Captain
    I'll say it again. You so concerned? Don't fish it at all
  • MRichardsonMRichardson Posts: 9,123 Admiral
    I don't.  I used to every week.  I haven't fished it since 2015, it's too depressing and gross.

    If you are the kind of person that think it's still ok, let's keep taking fish out as long as they keep coming.. and yeah, the water looks like diaper juice but hey, the fish are still there for now!  let's keep taking them until they're gone, then make it catch & release!
    I have never seen live bones, but I know that they are often used by rich people to decorate the interior.
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    I personally don't care what Cav's motivation is.  As long as the Lagoon is a cesspool, it's probably a good idea to lighten up on the take until we see just how far it spirals.

    If you don't fish there,  you don't know how bad it really is.  And if you want to keep fish, go somewhere else.
    This is pretty much what I am saying above here. I feel there are a lot of keyboard warriors on here that say it is wrong asking for CPR/CNR or what you want to call it and that  I am a hypocrite, I only want to make money. They probably have never even been on the lagoon to see the past decade of change that has happened. I bet some have no idea even where it is located. Or it's "known boundaries". We all want the same thing. To catch fish and lot's of them. Daily. I wish there were so many fish we never had to argue over this kind of thing, and yes, clean water like the olds days.

    And spangler to call me  hypocrite when I fish on the Mosquito Lagoon because I want to make money maybe maybe 5 to 8 times a year now on a charter is way of course. especially since I am already catch and release. So my 2% impact is minuscule to say the least. Think of all the businesses around a hundred square miles of here that if this area were to totally collapse what the economy would be like if people said no reason to fish there when there are no fish to catch.  Home sales will go down, tourism will go down, growth(I know people don't want this but it is part of life) will go down, and so on. It is just not me who this affects

    I would like to know where you fish at the past several weeks/months/years on a regular basis and what line of work you are in? Because I bet I could find something in there to call you a hypocrite too over those two things as well. All of us in some way or another are hypocrites on certain scales at some point in time.
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    spangler said:
    Here's how my argument goes..
    Pollution has devastated the MINWR ecosystem
    Cavanaugh68 is a charter fisherman
    Therefore, ban all Charter fisherman from MINWR


    Bumpkins post was 1000% correct. All he is doing is protecting his job and cash flow and nothing else. Talk about a hypocrite....”hey commercial guy don’t take fish from there to sell, I need my charters to catch fish so I can get paid”
    See if I can break this down for you easier:

    Example - Say Bob from up north comes to Disney for a week with his wife and two kids. Bob's wife says go fishing for a day or two while we are on vacation in Florida. Great right? let's see:

    So you accuse me of just wanting me me me me me for the $$$$.

    So look at this:

    Bob's flight to MCO with family say $700
    Bob's hotel or Condo $1500 for the week
    Bob's Rental Car $200
    Bob's dine out bill for a week $700
    Bob's Disney $5000
    Bob's Misc play things(fishing, gifts, airboat rides or what ever) $2000
    Bob's misc $500

    This over $10000 coming to the revenue of central Florida for "OUR" economy. Not just mine. So if you open your eyes and see the bigger picture there is more there than me just wanting to make $ on a charter.

    Oh yeah and by the way remember I then as do others turn around and spend that money too after Bob has paid me. So if the fishing here falls totally apart then it is just not me being hurt. Because Bob will not be coming back.
  • Flounderman3Flounderman3 Posts: 162 Deckhand
    For the record, I fish from Haulover Canal all the way down to Jacksonville area. Prob been fishing Haulover, Wales tale, Clinkers, georges’s and so on since about 1985. Of course fishing has declined there, no one is suggesting otherwise. I’m simply saying (in my humble opinion) that a fishing charter captain to be promoting catch and release so he can continue to take his clients on the water because that will eliminate fisherman is nonsense to me. 

    It’s a big world out there and it’s only getting bigger, I hope the grass comes back and it can make everyone happy so we could sing and hold hands! 

  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 11,127 AG
    Cripes I wish I had 10k to blow on a week/2 week vacation.   I'm lucky if I can scrape together 1500 bucks
    People use statistics the way a drunk uses a street light, for support rather than illumination.
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    For the record, I fish from Haulover Canal all the way down to Jacksonville area. Prob been fishing Haulover, Wales tale, Clinkers, georges’s and so on since about 1985. Of course fishing has declined there, no one is suggesting otherwise. I’m simply saying (in my humble opinion) that a fishing charter captain to be promoting catch and release so he can continue to take his clients on the water because that will eliminate fisherman is nonsense to me. 

    It’s a big world out there and it’s only getting bigger, I hope the grass comes back and it can make everyone happy so we could sing and hold hands! 

    Again for the 18th time I fish on the lagoon maybe maybe 4  to 8 times a year. So You are saying I am promoting a week or two worth of pay over all this. I fish other areas that are healthy you know, made that clear from day one. So to be clear the area I "am promoting" I fish 8 times a year so I can "eliminate" other anglers. WOW... Such narrow tunnel vision. Again cannot see the big picture or just does not want too.

    And how does this eliminate fishermen? You can can a mile down the river and keep there. Another comment from someone who does not know the area. If you did you would know that if the USFWS makes the Mosquito Lagoon CPR all you need to do is move down a mile or two and be in state waters and catch and keep there. It is not the size of Texas.

    I give up on these kind of comments. What about the other 5999 persons promoting it that do not guide. You have maybe 1% of this petition who is a guide, maybe so this comment from you is ridiculous to say the least.  I just do not understand this who guide hate thing. I wish all of you would say what you do then see how that goes, I bet you promote things for your job that could bite you in the butt. I bet some of your lines of work impact the environment/water more than you want people to know. So start telling us what everyone does for a living. Let's see who speaks up.

    So Flounderman3 what if I was on here promoting the opposite? Fighting this petition.  Say I was a guide who kept everything I legally could. And say I was advocating to be able to kill even more fish out here? You would still be saying the exact same thing, that in your humble opinion I am just doing this to promote my business. Nothing will satisfy you as long as I comment being a guide. You can't win with some of you on here.
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    edited May 13 #20
    Cripes I wish I had 10k to blow on a week/2 week vacation.   I'm lucky if I can scrape together 1500 bucks
    I had a guy last year that took his family here from Texas and treated 22 people to Disney. He was in basic construction. He said it cost him over a $100k for the 10 days here. He said a lot of his family could not afford to take his nephews and nieces (their 5 6 8 year old kids) and he wanted that to happen for them. He said he did very well and wanted to give that to them so they could have memories for ever. I thought that was very cool. I agree I wish I could spend that kind of cash too on trips.
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    I could say on here "I wish they had a WaWa closer to me". And someone  will comment "he is just wanting that to promote his business.... LOL
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 11,127 AG
    I could say on here "I wish they had a WaWa closer to me". And someone  will comment "he is just wanting that to promote his business.... LOL
    hogiefest at wawa is the shizz.    They have those vodoo kettle chips.   Good stuff. 
    People use statistics the way a drunk uses a street light, for support rather than illumination.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 10,459 AG
    you called out for no commercial take year or so ago...

    Now you call for C&R only.

    Wanna really help?

    1st, no entry period (you know to protect what grass is left).

    2nd, lobbying your local county, state, federal officials for REAL changes like replacing aging septic and sewer systems, or stormwater runoff, or something that may really have an impact,(yeah, that sh it ain't popular and cost $$)..

    you won't do it though.



    BTW,  if you want to compare economic impact (commercial vs rec), I'll post you some real data rather than some supposed Joe Sixpack Disney vac.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Flounderman3Flounderman3 Posts: 162 Deckhand
    Cavanaugh, i’ll save you a lot of typing when it comes to me.....you win I lose...good luck on the petition! 
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,440 Officer


    Saving the last few whales...






    I never seen no whales in Mosquito Lagoon, thought I saw a couple Buffalo hunters though. ;)

    Why don't you just guide for red snapper? It's already C&R for 50 weeks a year I hear. :)

    Don't worry, if it gets so bad you have to quit, you can always run for President. You posted here today more times than Trump tweeted! :D :D :D

    I say......I say son.......new & improved my tail feathers.

  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    ANUMBER1 said:
    you called out for no commercial take year or so ago...

    Now you call for C&R only.

    Wanna really help?

    1st, no entry period (you know to protect what grass is left).

    2nd, lobbying your local county, state, federal officials for REAL changes like replacing aging septic and sewer systems, or stormwater runoff, or something that may really have an impact,(yeah, that sh it ain't popular and cost $$)..

    you won't do it though.



    BTW,  if you want to compare economic impact (commercial vs rec), I'll post you some real data rather than some supposed Joe Sixpack Disney vac.
    No Art last year thousands and thousands and thousands of people called out commercial harvest inside a wildlife refuge and national park (think of this people - they allow commercial harvest inside a national park and "refuge")??? (Makes you think right) due to it was to come to end and they said it was their fault. The refuge admitted they dropped the ball and it will 100% come to an end in 2028 or sooner if FWC does suggest CPR for the lagoon.  I got the full story the other day from the persons we took out on the tour. And no Layne was not involved in this day what so ever. And they told us the exact reason of everything. So there is nothing you will say otherwise.

    And so now again, no it is just not me wanting this on the lagoon. It is thousands of people. Why do you think it is just me.

    The septic and water issue once again is another fight. Not sure why you cannot get this. In the meantime the little fish that remain on the lagoon need to be protected. And yes we do this as well. Captains for clean water is one.

    I am not going to argue with you on rec vs com fishing stats. If the state had to vote and choose one or the other to only exist I think the recreational vote would win. There is no way to truly track income because the recreational world deals with a lot of cash transaction that are never recorded or tracked. We all know this happens, just like in construction.
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    Cavanaugh, i’ll save you a lot of typing when it comes to me.....you win I lose...good luck on the petition! 
    Time will tell...
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand


    Saving the last few whales...






    I never seen no whales in Mosquito Lagoon, thought I saw a couple Buffalo hunters though. ;)

    Why don't you just guide for red snapper? It's already C&R for 50 weeks a year I hear. :)

    Don't worry, if it gets so bad you have to quit, you can always run for President. You posted here today more times than Trump tweeted! :D :D :D
    This just is reinforcing my opening comment above about how the gang up happens and how there are serious Smart *** on here. Again you wonder why a new member gets on here and comments a few times then leaves.

    Also none of you making these comments ever did say where you fish(live), last time and how often you fish the Mosquito Lagoon or what line of work your in.

    I smell serious jealousy and fear of change when I read the comments at times on this site.

    Good luck and have fun boys.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 10,459 AG
    ANUMBER1 said:
    you called out for no commercial take year or so ago...

    Now you call for C&R only.

    Wanna really help?

    1st, no entry period (you know to protect what grass is left).

    2nd, lobbying your local county, state, federal officials for REAL changes like replacing aging septic and sewer systems, or stormwater runoff, or something that may really have an impact,(yeah, that sh it ain't popular and cost $$)..

    you won't do it though.



    BTW,  if you want to compare economic impact (commercial vs rec), I'll post you some real data rather than some supposed Joe Sixpack Disney vac.
    No Art last year thousands and thousands and thousands of people called out commercial harvest inside a wildlife refuge and national park (think of this people - they allow commercial harvest inside a national park and "refuge")??? (Makes you think right) due to it was to come to end and they said it was their fault. The refuge admitted they dropped the ball and it will 100% come to an end in 2028 or sooner if FWC does suggest CPR for the lagoon.  I got the full story the other day from the persons we took out on the tour. And no Layne was not involved in this day what so ever. And they told us the exact reason of everything. So there is nothing you will say otherwise.

    And so now again, no it is just not me wanting this on the lagoon. It is thousands of people. Why do you think it is just me.

    The septic and water issue once again is another fight. Not sure why you cannot get this. In the meantime the little fish that remain on the lagoon need to be protected. And yes we do this as well. Captains for clean water is one.

    I am not going to argue with you on rec vs com fishing stats. If the state had to vote and choose one or the other to only exist I think the recreational vote would win. There is no way to truly track income because the recreational world deals with a lot of cash transaction that are never recorded or tracked. We all know this happens, just like in construction.
    sounds like you guides deal in a lot of cash and need a audit from the IRS?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Cavanaugh68Cavanaugh68 Posts: 389 Deckhand
    Sounds like a lot of businesses take cash. i bet a few commercial harvesters could use an audit or six.

    I take VISA, MC, Discover, American Express, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Apple Pay, and even cash.

    Audit away my friend audit away.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 10,459 AG
    Sounds like a lot of businesses take cash. i bet a few commercial harvesters could use an audit or six.

    I take VISA, MC, Discover, American Express, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Apple Pay, and even cash.

    Audit away my friend audit away.
    all my sales go thru the state trip ticket system, no backdoor like y'all.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
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