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Big DDT fish kill

tjensentjensen Posts: 359 Deckhand
I would like to know more about the "Big fish ( Snook) kill near Marco in the 60s caused by DDT". The debate between disease elimination and wildlife destruction is interesting. Malaria was prevalent back in the day but fishing was great. Typhus and Typhoid were also killers that were decimated with the use of DDT. The numbers of Bald Eagles, Pelicans, Buzzards etc. have increased greatly in my lifetime (when DDT was banned). I vote for the wildlife but I've never seen the suffering that Malaria et al inflicts. 
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  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 14,487 AG
    edited March 2019 #2
    It is estimated that the curtailment of DDT use has resulted in the deaths of between 50 and 100 million human beings.
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  • AC ManAC Man Posts: 6,351 Admiral
    edited March 2019 #3
    fins4me said:
    It is estimated that the curtailment of DDT use has resulted in the deaths of between 50 and 100 million human beings.
    Was DDT used in the fogger trucks in our hood that we followed on our bikes in the 60's? 

    Or how about the big planes that flew low and sprayed a chemical fog?

    It was all skeeter control, but I dont see it today.
  • Gary SGary S Posts: 2,254 Captain
    Mosquitos control still runs around with their trucks but no fog is coming out. Whatever is coming out works, short time after truck goes down road mosquitos are gone. Planes fly too but usually at night.
  • ferris1248ferris1248 Posts: 9,027 Moderator
    fins4me said:
    It is estimated that the curtailment of DDT use has resulted in the deaths of between 50 and 100 million human beings.
    http://www.panna.org/resources/ddt-story

    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the law. The rest is commentary."

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  • treemanjohntreemanjohn Posts: 5,021 Admiral

    The United States banned DDT in 1972 and environmental groups are trying to outlaw the pesticide worldwide. But in developing countries, it continues to be a cost-effective way to combat malaria, a disease that kills more than 1 million people a year in Africa.

    South Africa has resumed the use of DDT in its fight against mosquitoes that carry malaria. Public health officials in Pretoria say DDT has been dramatically successful. Since South African health officials resurrected a program to spray houses with DDT, the number of malaria cases and deaths has plummeted, NPR's Jason Beaubien reports.

    Malaria is the second-leading cause of death in Africa after AIDS. After South Africa stopped using DDT against the disease in 1996 malaria cases climbed steadily -- from 11,000 in 1997 to 42,000 just three years later. In 2001, South Africa went back to spraying houses with DDT and malaria cases plummeted to pre-1997 levels.

    In the town of Ndumo near the South African border with Mozambique, the regional health clinic is very quiet this year. Three nurses sit in a back room with nothing to do, Beaubien reports. One of them, Chabuli Ngongo, has worked at the facility for 10 years, and says things haven't always been so peaceful.

    "In 1999 and year 2000 all the staff here were suffering from malaria," Ngongo says. "I had malaria myself four times."

    During the malaria season of 2000, more than 7,000 people were diagnosed with the disease at the regional clinic. Almost 100 of those patients eventually died. During the first two months of 2003, the clinic has seen only 21 people with malaria. Ngongo attributes the dramatic decline primarily to the reintroduction of DDT.

    "It has gone down a lot," Ngongo says. "I think it's because of the spraying."

    South Africa also distributes insecticide-laden bed nets in malaria-prone villages and sprays mosquito breeding pools with larvicide.

    The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency describes DDT as a "persistent, bio-accumulative and toxic pollutant." The EPA says it damages the liver, the nervous system and can make people infertile. It was banned in the United States in 1972, but it is so potent that traces of DDT can still be found in the Great Lakes and other waterways.

    DDT's longevity makes it a dangerous pollutant but it also makes it a highly effective mosquito killer. In South African towns, DDT sprayed on the interior walls of houses will still be lethal to mosquitoes eight to 12 months later, making for a cheap weapon in the anti-malaria arsenal.

    Though other African countries use DDT -- including Swaziland, Madagascar, Uganda and Ethiopia -- its use remains controversial. Mozambique health officials worried about the long-term effects of the pesticide and have refused to use it. Zimbabwe gave up DDT out of concern that traces of the pesticide might be found on its lucrative tobacco crop.

    The World Wildlife Fund has called for a global ban on DDT but supports South Africa's limited use of the substance for malaria control.

    Richard Tren with the group Africa Fighting Malaria says the campaign to ban DDT worldwide is coming from Western environmentalists who don't appreciate how lethal malaria is in Africa. "The chances that someone is going to die of malaria in the U.S. is practically zero… so you don't need to worry about it. But the risks that people face in Africa are completely different and we need different tools."

    Tren and officials with the South African Ministry of Health say they've seen no adverse effects from DDT on the people whose houses have been sprayed. Health officials say DDT has been a lifesaver and that the country's dramatic reduction in malaria couldn't have happened without it.

    We’re like the piggy bank that everybody is robbing, and that ends
  • treemanjohntreemanjohn Posts: 5,021 Admiral
    It was all stupid science.


    The World Health Organization (WHO) has done an about-turn on the use of Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane (DDT) to fight malaria, citing South Africa’s successful anti-malaria programme as evidence that controlled indoor spraying of the insecticide is not only safe, but “one of the best tools we have” against the killer disease.

    Nearly 30 years after phasing out the widespread use of indoor spraying with DDT and other insecticides to control malaria, the WHO announced on Monday that this intervention would once again play a major role in its efforts to fight the disease.

    The WHO said in a statement that it “is now recommending the use of indoor residual spraying not only in epidemic areas but also in areas with constant and high malaria transmission, including throughout Africa.”

    According to SA Health Ministry spokesperson Sibani Mngadi, South Africa has been playing a leading international role in advocating the use of DDT as a critical element in eliminating malaria, particularly in Africa, which carries more than 80% of the world’s malaria cases.

    South Africa country is one of the few countries that – despite strong lobbying in some quarters against the decision – continued to use DDT after the early 1980s, when environmental concerns led the WHO to stop promoting the pesticide.

    Evidence from South Africa
    In its press statement on Monday, the WHO cited South Africa and India as offering “programmatic evidence … that correct and timely use of indoor residual spraying can reduce malaria transmission by up to 90%.

    “In the past, India was able to use DDT effectively in indoor residual spraying to cut dramatically the number of malaria cases and fatalities,” the WHO said.

    “South Africa has again re-introduced DDT for indoor residual spraying to keep malaria case and fatality numbers at all-time low levels and move towards malaria elimination. Today, 14 countries in sub-Saharan Africa are using indoor residual spraying and 10 of those are using DDT.”

    According to the Health Ministry, malaria cases in South Africa were reduced from 64 868 (15 out of every 10 000 people) in 2000 to 7 754 (2 per 10 000) in 2005.

    Indoor residual spraying with DDT has also been the main element in a cross-border malaria control collaboration involving South Africa, Swaziland and Mozambique.

    Mngadi said the three countries had worked together through the Lubombo Spatial Development Initiative, leading to a dramatic decrease in malaria cases in the Lubombo region.

    While most of South Africa is malaria-free, certain areas – the Kruger National Park, the lower-lying areas of the Mpumalanga and Limpopo provinces, and the northern parts of KwaZulu-Natal – do pose a malaria risk in the summer months.

    ‘One of our best weapons’
    Indoor residual spraying is the application of long-acting insecticides on the walls and roofs of houses and domestic animal shelters in order to kill malaria-carrying mosquitoes that land on these surfaces.

    According to the WHO’s reassessment, the evidence shows that correct and timely use of indoor residual spraying can reduce malaria transmission by up to 90%.

    “We must take a position based on the science and the data,” said Dr Arata Kochi, the director of the WHO’s global malaria programme. “One of the best tools we have against malaria is indoor residual house spraying. Of the dozen insecticides WHO has approved as safe for house spraying, the most effective is DDT.”

    Indoor residual spraying “has proven to be just as cost-effective as other malaria prevention measures,” the WHO said, “and DDT presents no health risk when used properly.”

    “Indoor spraying is like providing a huge mosquito net over an entire household for around-the-clock protection,” said US Senator Tom Coburn, a leading advocate for global malaria control efforts.

    “Finally, with WHO’s unambiguous leadership on the issue, we can put to rest the junk science and myths that have provided aid and comfort to the real enemy – mosquitoes – which threaten the lives of more than 300 million children each year.”

    Insecticide-treated mosquito nets
    While indoor residual spraying is now one of the main anti-malaria interventions being promoted by the WHO, a second is the use of insecticide-treated mosquito nets – particulary the recently developed “long-lasting insecticidal nets,” which remain effective for up to five years without retreatment.

    For those who contract malaria, more effective medicines – including the WHO-recommended Artemisinin Combination Therapies – are increasingly becoming available throughout the world.

    In January, the WHO banned the use of “malaria monotherapy” to help prevent future resistance to antimalarial medicines.

    Malaria is endemic in 107 countries around the world. Each year, according to the WHO, more than 500 million people suffer from acute malaria, resulting in more than 1 million deaths – at least 86% of these in sub-Saharan Africa.

    “Malaria disproportionately affects poor people, with almost 60% of malaria cases occurring among the poorest 20% of the world’s population,” the WHO says.

    We’re like the piggy bank that everybody is robbing, and that ends
  • ferris1248ferris1248 Posts: 9,027 Moderator
    No stupid science at all.

    Simply a risk versus reward scenario from country to country.  Countries that have high incidences of malaria are willing to take the risks the use of DDT creates. Those countries without high incidences of malaria chose not to. 

    Very simple. 

    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the law. The rest is commentary."

    Rabbi Hillel (c20 BCE)

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 32,592 AG
    AC Man said:
    fins4me said:
    It is estimated that the curtailment of DDT use has resulted in the deaths of between 50 and 100 million human beings.
    Was DDT used in the fogger trucks in our hood that we followed on our bikes in the 60's? 

    Or how about the big planes that flew low and sprayed a chemical fog?

    It was all skeeter control, but I dont see it today.
    Pretty sure they were spraying Malathion. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • FloydFloyd ; in N. Tampa or DownEast MainePosts: 1,109 Officer
    The thermal fog trucks of the 60s were hazardous and more expensive than the ULV(ultra low volume) aerosol trucks that replaced them.  Ninety percent of the "fog" was diesel or similar oil.
    The ULV trucks inject malathion or whatever into a calibrated high velocity air stream that breaks up the malathion into tiny droplets that are sized so that they will stick to a mosquito, and are small enough so that they don't fall to the ground quickly.
    The ULV spray planes us a similar technology, and usually operate in  the dead of night(2-5am) so that the ground has cooled off and doesn't cause convection currents that might keep the droplets from getting down to the mosquitos.
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  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 32,592 AG
    Floyd said:
    The thermal fog trucks of the 60s were hazardous and more expensive than the ULV(ultra low volume) aerosol trucks that replaced them.  Ninety percent of the "fog" was diesel or similar oil.
    The ULV trucks inject malathion or whatever into a calibrated high velocity air stream that breaks up the malathion into tiny droplets that are sized so that they will stick to a mosquito, and are small enough so that they don't fall to the ground quickly.
    The ULV spray planes us a similar technology, and usually operate in  the dead of night(2-5am) so that the ground has cooled off and doesn't cause convection currents that might keep the droplets from getting down to the mosquitos.
    I always thought the fog was just a smoke screen. Didn't know it was diesel.

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • tankardtankard Posts: 7,031 Admiral
    cadman said:
    AC Man said:
    fins4me said:
    It is estimated that the curtailment of DDT use has resulted in the deaths of between 50 and 100 million human beings.
    Was DDT used in the fogger trucks in our hood that we followed on our bikes in the 60's? 

    Or how about the big planes that flew low and sprayed a chemical fog?

    It was all skeeter control, but I dont see it today.
    Pretty sure they were spraying Malathion. 

    Correct.
  • Fish HaidFish Haid Posts: 8,417 Admiral
    Typhoid is NOT spread by insects!
    23895.gif
  • tjensentjensen Posts: 359 Deckhand
    Fish Haid said:
    Typhoid is NOT spread by insects!

    Houseflies spread Typhoid and Dysentery. DDT is shown to reduce both.
  • Fish HaidFish Haid Posts: 8,417 Admiral
    edited April 2019 #15
    I stand corrected, but it is not a common disease now.  Also, for clarification, it is not directly spread by insect bites like malaria or typhus.
    23895.gif
  • tjensentjensen Posts: 359 Deckhand

    I still want to hear more about the "big fish kill near Marco" in the 60's. Does anybody remember that? And if so was DDT the cause?

  • ScoutboatScoutboat Posts: 2,442 Captain
    The biggest damage that DDT caused was to the softening of the eggshells of birds that ate DDT laden critters.
    Remember "Silent Spring"?

  • tjensentjensen Posts: 359 Deckhand
    Yeah I know all about 'Silent Spring" and the bird egg thing. What I am asking is about the Big Fish Kill that Bobber referred to. He said it was covered up at the time by the local boosters. Where they spraying DDT in the upper TTI for skeeters? Was there a known cause for the kill? Or was it the hysteria about DDT after Carson's book came out. Was it red tide?  BTW they still haven't figured out how DDT weakens egg shells.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 32,592 AG
    Most big fish kills are caused by red tide outbreaks. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • Split ShotSplit Shot Posts: 6,190 Admiral
    I was fishing in Marco in the 60's as a small child esp after hurricane Donna, and snook fishing was utopia until the early and mid 70's. Then it went to shait! They finally made a come back with many small snooklets in 1990 I remember. The next 10+ yrs just boomed.
    They say a lot of eagles met their demise in the 60's from DDT softening the egg shells.
    I do remember some fish kills from the red tide but nothing in the way of DDT except some speculation that it killed the mosquito larva that the small fry were dependent on. 

  • BobberBobber Posts: 943 Officer
    See my new post on this in the 10k section.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 5,982 Admiral
    With the influx of illegals into our country we have seen a resurgence of disease that were eliminated from the US. It will probably get worse since they stopped vaccinating for a lot of those as a result.
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  • tjensentjensen Posts: 359 Deckhand
    Bobber said:
    See my new post on this in the 10k section.

    Not shown now and your comment yesterday disappeared as well. Did the Marco developers that used DDT back in the day pull some strings?
  • Split ShotSplit Shot Posts: 6,190 Admiral
    Bobber said:
    See my new post on this in the 10k section.
    I see nothing there Bob.
  • Split ShotSplit Shot Posts: 6,190 Admiral
    tjensen said:
    Bobber said:
    See my new post on this in the 10k section.

    Not shown now and your comment yesterday disappeared as well. Did the Marco developers that used DDT back in the day pull some strings?
    You mean the Macy Bros? They did more than pull a few strings! Not sure about the DDT part.
  • Split ShotSplit Shot Posts: 6,190 Admiral
    *Mackle Brothers
  • tjensentjensen Posts: 359 Deckhand

    "You mean the Macy Bros? They did more than pull a few strings! Not sure about the DDT part"

    I'm talking about the strings pulled on this forum last night that had Bobbers comments pulled.

  • treemanjohntreemanjohn Posts: 5,021 Admiral
    Haha I saw Bobbers comment. Nuvo Wuvo deleted it

    Basically it said the Macy Brothers sprayed DDT all over Marco island to sell it because no one wanted fight mosquitoes. According to bobber they used too much and ruined the Snook fishery
    We’re like the piggy bank that everybody is robbing, and that ends
  • tjensentjensen Posts: 359 Deckhand
    What is this Nuvo Wuvo you speak of?
  • BobberBobber Posts: 943 Officer
    My comments from April 4th are still on my feed, don't see anything deleted?  Would be weird if they did since a FSmagazine article about snook fishing in the 10k from the mid 90's  is what first brought this to my attention.
    Dunno where you get Macy bros from this, it's Mackle brothers. Just Google them for christs sake!

  • tjensentjensen Posts: 359 Deckhand
    OK Mackle bros. Why did your comments go from our feed?
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