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Dog modification...

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  • SaltygatorvetSaltygatorvet TallahasseePosts: 5,808 Admiral
    Parkerboy said:
    I don't like cropping of ears but in some hunting breeds cropping the tail is actually beneficial to the dog's health. This is the case with many terriers who are used to retrieve/flush game who have gone to ground. I had a wire haired terrier who had an uncropped tail and it bleed nearly all the time from his wagging it, hitting walls etc and bursting the tip open. Dr advised cropping but he was grown when I got him and couldn't bring myself to have it down. I have seen Jack Russell terriers get their tails cropped shortly after birth and they do not seem to feel it or be aware.
    They have outlawed ear cropping and tail docking in Europe, unless you prove that you are going to hunt your dog. Modt in the USA do it with breeds that traditionally do it. They have also outlawed it in California ( declawing in cats also). I had a Great Dane in college and had her ears cropped. I wish I hadn’t and would never do it again. That surgery wasn’t taught to us in vet school and I purposely never learned. I don’t mind removing dewclaws in young pups when done correctly, especially with hunting dogs or boxers
    You should have been here yesterday
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 2,110 Captain
    The dog walker has spoken, what the hell do you know? ;)
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,750 AG
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    I guess all those FDSB champions thru the years with no dewclaws weren't at their peak..

    Mind you they weren't being led around a manicured ring by thick legged lesibans or equal minded questionable males, but they won field trials for years (still do)..
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Ouch!
    That one is gonna leave a mark.
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • SaltygatorvetSaltygatorvet TallahasseePosts: 5,808 Admiral
    edited January 2019 #36
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    Those are NOT facts. Especially the removal of dewclaws weakening the elbow joint. That is absolutely not true. Dewclaws do not provide and support for ambulation, and the anatomy has no effect on the elbow.  If you can find a peer review journal from the avma, Please post a link
    You should have been here yesterday
  • SaltygatorvetSaltygatorvet TallahasseePosts: 5,808 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 said:
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    I guess all those FDSB champions thru the years with no dewclaws weren't at their peak..

    Mind you they weren't being led around a manicured ring by thick legged lesibans or equal minded questionable males, but they won field trials for years (still do)..
    I’ve never heard such BS
    You should have been here yesterday
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,750 AG
    me either and don't want to deal with a torn bloody dewclaw in the field either.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,530 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    Those are NOT facts. Especially the removal of dewclaws weakening the elbow joint. That is absolutely not true. Dewclaws do not provide and support for ambulation, and the anatomy has no effect on the elbow.  If you can find a peer review journal from the avma, Please post a link
    LMAO....The AVMA is not the end all be all.....  They have become more of a political organization than a medical science organization...... Studies on the IMPORTANCE of dew Claws are forthcoming....
  • mindyabinessmindyabiness Posts: 6,496 Admiral
    Get lost JB....
    The guy is a veterinarian.
    You're a wannabe.
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,530 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 said:
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    I guess all those FDSB champions thru the years with no dewclaws weren't at their peak..

    Mind you they weren't being led around a manicured ring by thick legged lesibans or equal minded questionable males, but they won field trials for years (still do)..
    I’ve never heard such BS
      Salty Gator Vet..... Removal of dew claws will weaken the elbow joint.... And that is fact.... Nothing new about this.... Folks with working dogs and vets that worked with working dogs have known this for at least 20 plus years. Some breed standards have been changed to prevent the removal of dew claws.... And some dog sports discourage running dogs sans dew claws.... The dew claw is NOT a vestigial digit. It attaches to multiple tendons that attach to muscles....The dew claw stabilizes and strengthens the joint. Additionally  the dogs use  their dew claws. All you have to do is watch a stock dog working in tight quarters..... The dew claw digs into the ground on tight turns and keeps the  dog;s front end from sliding out. 

    See below..... I can give you more examples of vets that work with sports and working dogs that will say similar things....

    From Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DACVSMR.
    you will see that there are 5 tendons attached to the dewclaw. Of course, at
    the other end of a tendon is a muscle, and that means that if you cut off the dew claws, there are
    5 muscle bundles that will become atrophied from disuse.
    Those muscles indicate that the dewclaws have a function. That function is to prevent
    torque on the leg. Each time the foot lands on the ground, particularly when the dog is cantering
    or galloping, the dewclaw is in touch with the ground. If the dog then needs to turn, the dewclaw
    digs into the ground to support the lower leg and prevent torque. If the dog doesn’t have a
    dewclaw, the leg twists. A lifetime of that and the result can be carpal arthritis. Remember: the
    dog is doing the activity regardless, and the pressures on the leg have to go somewhere. They
    can be absorbed by the dewclaw, or they will move up and down the leg to the toes, carpus,
    elbow, and shoulders.
    Perhaps you are thinking, “I never have had one of my dogs have carpal pain or arthritis.”
    Well, we need to remember that dogs, by their very nature, do not tell us about mild to moderate
    pain. If a dog was to be asked by an emergency room nurse to give the level of his pain on a
    scale from 0 o 10, with 10 being the worst, their scale would be 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Most of
    our dogs, especially if they deal with pain that is of gradual onset, just deal with it and don’t
    complain unless it is excruciating. But when I palpate the carpal joints of older dogs without
    dewclaws, I almost always elicit pain with relatively minimal manipulation.
    As to the possibility of in
    juries to dew claws. Most veterinarians w
    ill say that such injuries
    actually are not very common at all. And if they do occur, then they are dealt with like any other
    injury. In my opinion, it is far better to deal with an injury than to cut the dew claws off of all dogs





  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,530 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 said:
    me either and don't want to deal with a torn bloody dewclaw in the field either.
    Makes sense...... Dealing with an arthritic dog is much easier....
  • SaltygatorvetSaltygatorvet TallahasseePosts: 5,808 Admiral
    edited January 2019 #43
    ANUMBER1 said:
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    I guess all those FDSB champions thru the years with no dewclaws weren't at their peak..

    Mind you they weren't being led around a manicured ring by thick legged lesibans or equal minded questionable males, but they won field trials for years (still do)..
    I’ve never heard such BS
      Salty Gator Vet..... Removal of dew claws will weaken the elbow joint.... And that is fact.... Nothing new about this.... Folks with working dogs and vets that worked with working dogs have known this for at least 20 plus years. Some breed standards have been changed to prevent the removal of dew claws.... And some dog sports discourage running dogs sans dew claws.... The dew claw is NOT a vestigial digit. It attaches to multiple tendons that attach to muscles....The dew claw stabilizes and strengthens the joint. Additionally  the dogs use  their dew claws. All you have to do is watch a stock dog working in tight quarters..... The dew claw digs into the ground on tight turns and keeps the  dog;s front end from sliding out. 

    See below..... I can give you more examples of vets that work with sports and working dogs that will say similar things....

    From Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DACVSMR.
    you will see that there are 5 tendons attached to the dewclaw. Of course, at
    the other end of a tendon is a muscle, and that means that if you cut off the dew claws, there are
    5 muscle bundles that will become atrophied from disuse.
    Those muscles indicate that the dewclaws have a function. That function is to prevent
    torque on the leg. Each time the foot lands on the ground, particularly when the dog is cantering
    or galloping, the dewclaw is in touch with the ground. If the dog then needs to turn, the dewclaw
    digs into the ground to support the lower leg and prevent torque. If the dog doesn’t have a
    dewclaw, the leg twists. A lifetime of that and the result can be carpal arthritis. Remember: the
    dog is doing the activity regardless, and the pressures on the leg have to go somewhere. They
    can be absorbed by the dewclaw, or they will move up and down the leg to the toes, carpus,
    elbow, and shoulders.
    Perhaps you are thinking, “I never have had one of my dogs have carpal pain or arthritis.”
    Well, we need to remember that dogs, by their very nature, do not tell us about mild to moderate
    pain. If a dog was to be asked by an emergency room nurse to give the level of his pain on a
    scale from 0 o 10, with 10 being the worst, their scale would be 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Most of
    our dogs, especially if they deal with pain that is of gradual onset, just deal with it and don’t
    complain unless it is excruciating. But when I palpate the carpal joints of older dogs without
    dewclaws, I almost always elicit pain with relatively minimal manipulation.
    As to the possibility of in
    juries to dew claws. Most veterinarians w
    ill say that such injuries
    actually are not very common at all. And if they do occur, then they are dealt with like any other
    injury. In my opinion, it is far better to deal with an injury than to cut the dew claws off of all dogs





    That isn’t a peer reviewed journal. And that isn’t a paper it’s an opinion article. The dewclaw doesn’t contact the ground with ambulation and doesn’t prevent torque . The only way a dewclaw contact the ground on most dogs is if they step in a hole.What you say is not fact. Please stop calling it fact. The avma is the end all be all when it comes to veterinary medicine in this country. There is a reason articles need to be reviewed by peers so when someone writes an article like you posted, other veterinarians review the paper and prove it to be bogus. Try to find a peer reviewed journal article
    You should have been here yesterday
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,530 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 said:
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    I guess all those FDSB champions thru the years with no dewclaws weren't at their peak..

    Mind you they weren't being led around a manicured ring by thick legged lesibans or equal minded questionable males, but they won field trials for years (still do)..
    I’ve never heard such BS
      Salty Gator Vet..... Removal of dew claws will weaken the elbow joint.... And that is fact.... Nothing new about this.... Folks with working dogs and vets that worked with working dogs have known this for at least 20 plus years. Some breed standards have been changed to prevent the removal of dew claws.... And some dog sports discourage running dogs sans dew claws.... The dew claw is NOT a vestigial digit. It attaches to multiple tendons that attach to muscles....The dew claw stabilizes and strengthens the joint. Additionally  the dogs use  their dew claws. All you have to do is watch a stock dog working in tight quarters..... The dew claw digs into the ground on tight turns and keeps the  dog;s front end from sliding out. 

    See below..... I can give you more examples of vets that work with sports and working dogs that will say similar things....

    From Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DACVSMR.
    you will see that there are 5 tendons attached to the dewclaw. Of course, at
    the other end of a tendon is a muscle, and that means that if you cut off the dew claws, there are
    5 muscle bundles that will become atrophied from disuse.
    Those muscles indicate that the dewclaws have a function. That function is to prevent
    torque on the leg. Each time the foot lands on the ground, particularly when the dog is cantering
    or galloping, the dewclaw is in touch with the ground. If the dog then needs to turn, the dewclaw
    digs into the ground to support the lower leg and prevent torque. If the dog doesn’t have a
    dewclaw, the leg twists. A lifetime of that and the result can be carpal arthritis. Remember: the
    dog is doing the activity regardless, and the pressures on the leg have to go somewhere. They
    can be absorbed by the dewclaw, or they will move up and down the leg to the toes, carpus,
    elbow, and shoulders.
    Perhaps you are thinking, “I never have had one of my dogs have carpal pain or arthritis.”
    Well, we need to remember that dogs, by their very nature, do not tell us about mild to moderate
    pain. If a dog was to be asked by an emergency room nurse to give the level of his pain on a
    scale from 0 o 10, with 10 being the worst, their scale would be 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Most of
    our dogs, especially if they deal with pain that is of gradual onset, just deal with it and don’t
    complain unless it is excruciating. But when I palpate the carpal joints of older dogs without
    dewclaws, I almost always elicit pain with relatively minimal manipulation.
    As to the possibility of in
    juries to dew claws. Most veterinarians w
    ill say that such injuries
    actually are not very common at all. And if they do occur, then they are dealt with like any other
    injury. In my opinion, it is far better to deal with an injury than to cut the dew claws off of all dogs





    That isn’t a peer reviewed journal. And that isn’t a paper it’s an opinion article. The dewclaw doesn’t contact the ground with ambulation and doesn’t prevent torque . The only way a dewclaw contact the ground on most dogs is if they step in a hole.What you say is not fact. Please stop calling it fact. The avma is the end all be all when it comes to veterinary medicine in this country. There is a reason articles need to be reviewed by peers so when someone writes an article like you posted, other veterinarians review the paper and prove it to be bogus. Try to find a peer reviewed journal article
    Pretty clear you have never watched a working dog work.... Because their dew claws MOST definitely touch the ground in hard turns....
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,530 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 said:
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    I guess all those FDSB champions thru the years with no dewclaws weren't at their peak..

    Mind you they weren't being led around a manicured ring by thick legged lesibans or equal minded questionable males, but they won field trials for years (still do)..
    I’ve never heard such BS
      Salty Gator Vet..... Removal of dew claws will weaken the elbow joint.... And that is fact.... Nothing new about this.... Folks with working dogs and vets that worked with working dogs have known this for at least 20 plus years. Some breed standards have been changed to prevent the removal of dew claws.... And some dog sports discourage running dogs sans dew claws.... The dew claw is NOT a vestigial digit. It attaches to multiple tendons that attach to muscles....The dew claw stabilizes and strengthens the joint. Additionally  the dogs use  their dew claws. All you have to do is watch a stock dog working in tight quarters..... The dew claw digs into the ground on tight turns and keeps the  dog;s front end from sliding out. 

    See below..... I can give you more examples of vets that work with sports and working dogs that will say similar things....

    From Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DACVSMR.
    you will see that there are 5 tendons attached to the dewclaw. Of course, at
    the other end of a tendon is a muscle, and that means that if you cut off the dew claws, there are
    5 muscle bundles that will become atrophied from disuse.
    Those muscles indicate that the dewclaws have a function. That function is to prevent
    torque on the leg. Each time the foot lands on the ground, particularly when the dog is cantering
    or galloping, the dewclaw is in touch with the ground. If the dog then needs to turn, the dewclaw
    digs into the ground to support the lower leg and prevent torque. If the dog doesn’t have a
    dewclaw, the leg twists. A lifetime of that and the result can be carpal arthritis. Remember: the
    dog is doing the activity regardless, and the pressures on the leg have to go somewhere. They
    can be absorbed by the dewclaw, or they will move up and down the leg to the toes, carpus,
    elbow, and shoulders.
    Perhaps you are thinking, “I never have had one of my dogs have carpal pain or arthritis.”
    Well, we need to remember that dogs, by their very nature, do not tell us about mild to moderate
    pain. If a dog was to be asked by an emergency room nurse to give the level of his pain on a
    scale from 0 o 10, with 10 being the worst, their scale would be 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Most of
    our dogs, especially if they deal with pain that is of gradual onset, just deal with it and don’t
    complain unless it is excruciating. But when I palpate the carpal joints of older dogs without
    dewclaws, I almost always elicit pain with relatively minimal manipulation.
    As to the possibility of in
    juries to dew claws. Most veterinarians w
    ill say that such injuries
    actually are not very common at all. And if they do occur, then they are dealt with like any other
    injury. In my opinion, it is far better to deal with an injury than to cut the dew claws off of all dogs





    That isn’t a peer reviewed journal. And that isn’t a paper it’s an opinion article. The dewclaw doesn’t contact the ground with ambulation and doesn’t prevent torque . The only way a dewclaw contact the ground on most dogs is if they step in a hole.What you say is not fact. Please stop calling it fact. The avma is the end all be all when it comes to veterinary medicine in this country. There is a reason articles need to be reviewed by peers so when someone writes an article like you posted, other veterinarians review the paper and prove it to be bogus. Try to find a peer reviewed journal article

    By the way..... Even IF  Doctor Christine Zink's article is her opinion....... Your position on Dew Claws is no more than your opinion....... And Dr Zink's Credentials FAR FAR exceed yours.....
  • ParkerboyParkerboy Posts: 7,048 Admiral
    I have had dogs my entire life including Pointers, **** hounds, Beagles, yard dogs, and various indoor dogs and none ever used their dew claws in walking or running. Some seemed to use their few claws when holding a bone to gnaw on it. I've been around many who had dew claws removed and never seen any evidence the dogs were adversely affected in hunting.
    Deo Vindice
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,750 AG
    JB likes the way dewclaws dig into his calf when he's being leg humped.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • SaltygatorvetSaltygatorvet TallahasseePosts: 5,808 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 said:
    ANUMBER1 said:
    dew claws yes, nuts maybe.. tails and ears no



    Dew Claws NEVER.... Remove  the dew claws and you severely WEAKEN the Elbow Joint..... FACT...

    Ears..... Whatever your preference..... But a drop eared dog is MORE likely to have ear issues..... A drop ear keeps the ear canal warm and wet.... Does not allow air flow... A recipe for infection....

    Tails...... Depends on the dog.... an Athletic dog with a robust tail....... Leave the tail as the dog uses it for a rudder.....
    Dogs with whippy slender tails...... Dock them..... Scotland banned tail docking on spaniels and other field dogs.... The incidence of tail damage was so significant the government is working to remove the ban on docking.
    Keep in mind...... Most dogs are tail docked at three to five days old. At that age it is a snip..... The nerves are not developed. There is almost ZERO blood.... A three day old pup will protest you pulling it off it's mama's T it . But will not protest the snip... and once you return it to its Momma if will immediately return to suckling.....Conversely.... if you have a breed like a Doberman, Rottweiler, any of the mainland European pointers etc... and you choose not to dock the tail because of your misguided beliefs..... you had BETTER hope you are LUCKY..... because while docking a puppy is painless and not big deal. IF you have to dock a tail because of an injury on an adult dog... it is a MAJOR deal.... It will cost you around 2 grand, your dog will be hospitalized a couple of days..... And you are talking 8 weeks in the cone of shame.... And bandage changes are a PAIN in the Butt. I have been there...Done that.....

    Bottom line is..... Dew claws is PURELY for ease of ownership. And HARMS the performance of the dog.... Some argue.....But the dog might tear a dew claw..... Fact is... IF you are a good owner and keep up with care and maintenance of your dog.... you WILL keep your dogs dew nails trimmed short..... you will likely never have an issue.... But if you do..A torn dew claw is SMALL potatoes compared to a blown out elbow joint.

    Ears...... Purely a choice.... But if you choose to not crop a drop eared dog, you better keep up with ear care.


    Tails...... It i no accident that some breeds traditionally keep their tails and some breeds are typically docked.Different breeds have different types of tails. Some breeds have robust tails that they use.... Some breeds have whippy spindly tails  that are easily broken...
    I guess all those FDSB champions thru the years with no dewclaws weren't at their peak..

    Mind you they weren't being led around a manicured ring by thick legged lesibans or equal minded questionable males, but they won field trials for years (still do)..
    I’ve never heard such BS
      Salty Gator Vet..... Removal of dew claws will weaken the elbow joint.... And that is fact.... Nothing new about this.... Folks with working dogs and vets that worked with working dogs have known this for at least 20 plus years. Some breed standards have been changed to prevent the removal of dew claws.... And some dog sports discourage running dogs sans dew claws.... The dew claw is NOT a vestigial digit. It attaches to multiple tendons that attach to muscles....The dew claw stabilizes and strengthens the joint. Additionally  the dogs use  their dew claws. All you have to do is watch a stock dog working in tight quarters..... The dew claw digs into the ground on tight turns and keeps the  dog;s front end from sliding out. 

    See below..... I can give you more examples of vets that work with sports and working dogs that will say similar things....

    From Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DACVSMR.
    you will see that there are





    I can assure you, the OFA doesn’t agree with her either. Or does the ofa not matter to you either. I can tell I’m not going to convince you of anything. So enjoy those dewclaws, but please stop stating your onpinion or dr zinks opinion as fact. It simply isn’t true
    You should have been here yesterday
  • SaltygatorvetSaltygatorvet TallahasseePosts: 5,808 Admiral
    edited January 2019 #49
    There isn’t even a date on that “paper”.... but it appears unpublished ...which is worthless. This is the problem with dog “know it alls”.... your not required by the state to update your knowledge in the form of continiing education. So some dumb factoid they read in dog fancy magazine in 1985 is still relevant in their mind.
    You should have been here yesterday
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 5,982 Admiral

    Dogs are already completely modified form their natural appearance. Humans have been manipulating dogs for centuries, no wild dog looks anything like what we have in out homes. I’m not even sure we even know what a wild dog actually looks like today.


    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • 2amigo2amigo Posts: 5,953 Admiral
    edited January 2019 #51
    surfman said:

    Dogs are already completely modified form their natural appearance. Humans have been manipulating dogs for centuries, no wild dog looks anything like what we have in out homes. I’m not even sure we even know what a wild dog actually looks like today.


    Here are a couple of wild dogs.

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,343 AG
    There isn’t even a date on that “paper”.... but it appears unpublished ...which is worthless. This is the problem with dog “know it alls”.... your not required by the state to update your knowledge in the form of continiing education. So some dumb factoid they read in dog fancy magazine in 1985 is still relevant in their mind.
    It won't matter. Johnny is always right, in his mind. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 3,532 Captain
    Dew claws do serve a purpose. They are for extra grip and manipulation of prey or food.  All wild canines and cats have them... except one. The wild species who have them have them connected the same as domestic dogs, implying their design is purposeful, not a leftover from something no longer in use.

    HOWEVER, African Cape hunting dogs, which are one of the few non-wolf, non-fox, wild canine species I am aware of, do not have them. And they are the champion long distance runners of the animal kingdom...
  • Fish HaidFish Haid Posts: 8,417 Admiral
    I once cut all of my Dobe's legs off at the knee.  Sold it to a near-sighted Eskimo as a seal.
    23895.gif
  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,874 AG
    Look at this vice like grip!  Thanks dew claw!



    My old pug had a dew claw they must have missed.  The thing was limp and he couldn't move it that I could tell.  That tells me its not really attached to anything critical. 

    Captain Todd Approves

  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,874 AG
    PetMD.com says the fronts shouldn't be removed.  It's associated with WebMD who I trust.  Because of WebMD I know I am a cancer, gout, shingles, leprosy, diabetes, HIV, hepatitis and butt polyps survivor.   Didn't even have to go to a Dr, just looked up my symptoms. 

    Captain Todd Approves

  • mindyabinessmindyabiness Posts: 6,496 Admiral
    surfman said:

    Dogs are already completely modified form their natural appearance. Humans have been manipulating dogs for centuries, no wild dog looks anything like what we have in out homes. I’m not even sure we even know what a wild dog actually looks like today.


    I'm sure at least one of us thinks he does
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
  • johnpowersjohnpowers BayPosts: 2,898 Captain
    surfman said:

    Dogs are already completely modified form their natural appearance. Humans have been manipulating dogs for centuries, no wild dog looks anything like what we have in out homes. I’m not even sure we even know what a wild dog actually looks like today.


    I don’t know about that. 
     I saw a chihuahua kill a Rottweiler once. The SOB choked to death on it!
  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,874 AG
    My vet told me they like to wait until 12-14 months before neutering now.  He said they don't want to cut off the testosterone until a full adult, which makes sense to me.  @Saltygatorvet have you heard of this and do you have a take on it?

    Captain Todd Approves

  • SaltygatorvetSaltygatorvet TallahasseePosts: 5,808 Admiral
    mplspug said:
    My vet told me they like to wait until 12-14 months before neutering now.  He said they don't want to cut off the testosterone until a full adult, which makes sense to me.  @Saltygatorvet have you heard of this and do you have a take on it?
    I try to wait as well. Growth plates close on long bones when testosterone/ estrogen hits a certain level.  When folks were neutering early ( medicine changes with time as peer reviewed papers are written, and practices formally thought of fact are changed), the dogs ( especially males) were growing very “leggy”. The best comparison I can make is for you to look at the difference between a steer and a bull. Bulls are thick and masculine looking, steers have longer legs and faces with a more feminine look. So I try to let the females go through one maybe 2 heats( too many heats and the rate of breast cancer goes way up). And the males go at 12-18 months depending on personality. That is what I do, there are differing opinions. Mine may change if/when I come across a study that convinced me otherwise or I go to a lecture convincing me otherwise. I recommend folks get a veterinarian that they trust and ask them.  It isn’t a black and white subject so there will be many opinions. 
    You should have been here yesterday
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