General Motors Cutting US Production

kellercl

Mister-Jr said:

Statement from Barra

Transforming product development – GM is evolving its global product development workforce and processes to drive world-class levels of engineering in advanced technologies, and to improve quality and speed to market. Resources allocated to electric and autonomous vehicle programs will double in the next two years. Additional actions include:

https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/general-motors-accelerates-transformation

Doubling inherently doesn't mean anything.  If 1% of their workforce is "doubled" to 2%.... That isn't much of an increase.  Percentages are easily misleading which is why people like to use them.  A homeless person can double their net wealth by finding a nickel.  

surfman

Back in the '70s a Toyota or a Datsun and Honda was a very cheap and flimsy car, they were simple and cheap. They also got good gas mileage and were reliable and for the most part that is one of the reasons they were able to capitalize on the market. They were making the same thing they always made. Americans have a tenancy to jazz up the small cars with all kinds of trim work and stuff the Japanese cars didn't have. It was not necessary. Then there was the Pinto accident where it caught on fire (many cars would have done the same thing back then) The media loved it. Also the Chevy Vega and it's aluminum engine was a total disaster. Then to top it off the unions were demanding more money and striking hard and caused a lot of problems for the automakers. The '80s cars were by far the worst they ever made. I was surprised the auto industry survived the unions then, one did go belly up.

Joe Mc

GM is experiencing karma. They did not, by design build a car in the 50's, 60's and early 70's that would reach 100,000 miles. Sweden and Japan did.

dave44

Joe Mc said:

GM is experiencing karma. They did not, by design build a car in the 50's, 60's and early 70's that would reach 100,000 miles. Sweden and Japan did.

Unfortunately this is true, for all of the big three. When dodge came out with 50k,5 year warranty, Chevy had 1 year 12k warranty. I was a Chevy guy at the time, I bought 1 more after that and can’t bring myself to get another.

sjm1582002

Two of my worst, by far, vehicle breakdowns were Japanese so I am no big fan of them, either.

A transmission (+$3k) went out on a Maxima at 127k and a blown head gasket/cracked head on a Camry at 155k that would have cost as much to repair as the vehicle was worth.

In a couple more years I expect my lowly V8 RWD Mustang GT will surpass the Camry for my new vehicle mileage record. 

A gal at work has an old (2004?) beater V6 mustang with 260k and everything still works.

From now on it's RWD V8/V6 Fords, or a Honda sedan, or another Toyota pu for me.

I'm all done being a test dummy.

Mister-Jr

kellercl said:

Mister-Jr said:

Statement from Barra

Transforming product development – GM is evolving its global product development workforce and processes to drive world-class levels of engineering in advanced technologies, and to improve quality and speed to market. Resources allocated to electric and autonomous vehicle programs will double in the next two years. Additional actions include:

https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/general-motors-accelerates-transformation

Doubling inherently doesn't mean anything.  If 1% of their workforce is "doubled" to 2%.... That isn't much of an increase.  Percentages are easily misleading which is why people like to use them.  A homeless person can double their net wealth by finding a nickel.  

Why do you think they are going through this reorganization?  Tesla Model 3 is selling like crazy in spite of its cost. 

kellercl

You do realize Tesla isn't even a top 10 manufacture, right?  They probably don't even have 1% of the total market.  The reorganization is so GM can focus on giant SUV and trucks, because that is what consumers want.  Ford is dropping their small cars as well.  Additionally the Volt was directly cited as the cause for the factory closing in Detroit.  GM has flat out stated the market is moving towards SUVs and trucks.  The data simply doesn't show what you want it to.  Deal with it.

kellercl

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/10/u-s-auto-sales-brand-rankings-september-2018-ytd/

Tesla in 2018 currently ranks 13th in market share with 0.92%..... Tesla could increase their market share but a factor of 10, and still not be in the top 6.  Doubling market share from 0.5% to 1% isn't the same thing as doubling from 10% to 20%.  There is a reason why Tesla numbers are reported as percent change (against itself), instead of by total market share increase.  It is impressive to say they doubled, but less impressive to say their market share increased 0.5%. 

I get it, you want EV to be dominant in a few years, but it isn't happening.  The market is moving away from small cars and towards giant cars.  In a couple decades maybe EV becomes something significant, but today it isn't and tomorrow will be the same story.  Again the data is all there, just accept it.    

Mister-Jr

kellercl said:

You do realize Tesla isn't even a top 10 manufacture, right?  They probably don't even have 1% of the total market.  The reorganization is so GM can focus on giant SUV and trucks, because that is what consumers want.  Ford is dropping their small cars as well.  Additionally the Volt was directly cited as the cause for the factory closing in Detroit.  GM has flat out stated the market is moving towards SUVs and trucks.  The data simply doesn't show what you want it to.  Deal with it.

Do you understand Tesla makes three high priced models?  Do you realize Tesla is growing as opposed to GM?  Do you or have you ever had a vision of what the near-term future looks like?

kellercl

Again, nevermind.  I've said it a dozen times.  Talking to a brick wall is a waste of my time.

surfman

The thing about Japanese cares and their owners is it seems they need to justify buying one. People that have them and complain about the American cares list out all the so-called problems they had with their GM car and they are usually minor issues that I guess I wouldn’t be bothered with. Then the same person is telling me that his Toyota is in the shop getting some minor issue fixed and it is not the first time but, for some reason it is ok, it’s a Toyota.

Mango Man

surfman said:

The thing about Japanese cares and their owners is it seems they need to justify buying one. People that have them and complain about the American cares list out all the so-called problems they had with their GM car and they are usually minor issues that I guess I wouldn’t be bothered with. Then the same person is telling me that his Toyota is in the shop getting some minor issue fixed and it is not the first time but, for some reason it is ok, it’s a Toyota.

Google all the recalls and you'll see quite a list on the imports. 

kellercl

surfman said:

The thing about Japanese cares and their owners is it seems they need to justify buying one. People that have them and complain about the American cares list out all the so-called problems they had with their GM car and they are usually minor issues that I guess I wouldn’t be bothered with. Then the same person is telling me that his Toyota is in the shop getting some minor issue fixed and it is not the first time but, for some reason it is ok, it’s a Toyota.

My domestic complaints are based on mileage.  Struts went out at 16k miles.  Paint peeled at 5k miles.  Speedometer broke at 34k miles.  On the other hand my japense cars go 100k miles before having issues.

Cars have maintenance, but I expect to go at least 60k before issues.  I don't have to justify anything, I spend my money as I wish.  Some like domestic, good for them, I simply do not.

surfman

I am just referring to people I know and have had conversations with. Can't speak for everyone.

kellercl

Fair enough, I wrongly assumed your post was aimed at me.  My apologies.

Gary S

The way I see it  american manufactures like to put in a lot of useless stuff to sell a car over engineering the mechanicals to be more reliable and easier to work on. Try and put a quart of oil in a engine without spilling some. They will design a nice oil fill that would be easy to use but then run some hoses in the way so you can't position oil bottle.
 But you have bluetooth and satellite positioning. Not to mention heated and cooled seats.
 

surfman

Another problem is that apparently the Japanese manufacturers can put more gadgets on a car and sell it for less money. Some come with stuff like power windows and door locks standard and you gotta pay extra on an American car. Another reason the Japanese cornered the market back in the late 70s and 80s they were cheaper. A car only cost about 4500 dollars but a Japanese car was still about a grand less, that is a significant % savings.

Gardawg

I see more Korean cars than Japanese cars on the road.

Finfinder

Bimini Twisted said:

HomerSimpson said:

huh???  american consumers pay for tariffs that china implements on imports?

the american worker does not necessarily loose his job because the augment can be made that the only way for GM to build cars cheap enough to sell in china is to build them in china.  now....if we get rid of that Chinese tariff then the playing field becomes a bit more leveled, wouldn't you say?



regardless of the back and forth..........GM doesn't change quickly.  All this stuff has been set in motion years ago.  The recent tariffs is just something they can use as an excuse.

No, American consumers pay the tariff that has been implemented on Chinese steel, so it's not just cars.

Though it's sort of hard to build a car here without importing tariffed steel, and thus charging consumers more, right?

But you know all that.

Did the American consumers pay for the $81 billion dollars when the auto industry was bailed out?     

mplspug

Gardawg said:

I see more Korean cars than Japanese cars on the road.

The margin is huuuuuuuuge!

Big Battery

Mister-Jr said:

kellercl said:

You do realize Tesla isn't even a top 10 manufacture, right?  They probably don't even have 1% of the total market.  The reorganization is so GM can focus on giant SUV and trucks, because that is what consumers want.  Ford is dropping their small cars as well.  Additionally the Volt was directly cited as the cause for the factory closing in Detroit.  GM has flat out stated the market is moving towards SUVs and trucks.  The data simply doesn't show what you want it to.  Deal with it.

Do you understand Tesla makes three high priced models?  Do you realize Tesla is growing as opposed to GM?  Do you or have you ever had a vision of what the near-term future looks like?

Tesla has 0.29% of the auto market. And it would be close to 0.0 if not for government subsidies.

kellercl

No, no, no.  You are mistaken.  The domestic market is moving towards environmentally friendly cars.  How else do you explain ford dropping cars, GM dropping cars and suvs/truck sales increasing?  Remember there is that one 70k prototype all electric truck!  There will be hundreds of all electric cars on the market on 2 years!!!!

Mister-Jr

Big Battery said:

Mister-Jr said:

kellercl said:

You do realize Tesla isn't even a top 10 manufacture, right?  They probably don't even have 1% of the total market.  The reorganization is so GM can focus on giant SUV and trucks, because that is what consumers want.  Ford is dropping their small cars as well.  Additionally the Volt was directly cited as the cause for the factory closing in Detroit.  GM has flat out stated the market is moving towards SUVs and trucks.  The data simply doesn't show what you want it to.  Deal with it.

Do you understand Tesla makes three high priced models?  Do you realize Tesla is growing as opposed to GM?  Do you or have you ever had a vision of what the near-term future looks like?

Tesla has 0.29% of the auto market. And it would be close to 0.0 if not for government subsidies.

Tesla has been producing cars for how long?  10 years?  Did the federal government ever fight wars over oil?  Did we use American troops to protect oil producing countries that supplied oil to our refineries?  Did the taxpayer bail out GM?

Accept the realities of progress.

surfman

Japanese are following our (workers) lead, the Koreans will catch up eventually.

Mister-Jr

surfman said:

Japanese are following our (workers) lead, the Koreans will catch up eventually.

I have had three autos that were manufactured in Japan.  The quality of those vehicles is strikingly better than any vehicle produced in America. 

AaronCannon

surfman said:

The thing about Japanese cares and their owners is it seems they need to justify buying one. People that have them and complain about the American cares list out all the so-called problems they had with their GM car and they are usually minor issues that I guess I wouldn’t be bothered with. Then the same person is telling me that his Toyota is in the shop getting some minor issue fixed and it is not the first time but, for some reason it is ok, it’s a Toyota.

Every brand has a "**** fan".
Im going to be Honda for awhile. 329000 miles out of an Element could do that.
Had to put a starter in it @269k. It still runs today.
So i got another Honda.
I had a mid eighties GM.
Had to drive an 07 too.
Swear they had same automatic, i killed 13 in the 1st, blew the 07s too.
Ill never buy another.
Guess im not alone.

Tarponator

The Honda Element was an amazing machine.   There's one sitting in my garage now with 260k.   What year did you have?

FWIW, I've owned two Tahoes.  I sold the first at 175k, and the second just topped 100k.  Both have been great trucks, and I will likely buy a third if those battery powered trucks don't hurry up. 

AaronCannon

Have an 04 with 170k runs 80 miles a day, 05 with 329k.
Oil changes when they ask for them averages 11k miles/change, brake parts, starter, and struts 2 weeks ago on the 04. Took 2hours to do. Starter took 3.
Think ive changed all the calipers on the 04 as well.
05 is a zombie, nothing breaks. But it started loosing half a quart of oil between changes. 11k so not a concern.
Both automatics as well.
If tupperware made a tank.

Big Battery

AaronCannon said:

surfman said:

The thing about Japanese cares and their owners is it seems they need to justify buying one. People that have them and complain about the American cares list out all the so-called problems they had with their GM car and they are usually minor issues that I guess I wouldn’t be bothered with. Then the same person is telling me that his Toyota is in the shop getting some minor issue fixed and it is not the first time but, for some reason it is ok, it’s a Toyota.

Every brand has a "**** fan".
Im going to be Honda for awhile. 329000 miles out of an Element could do that.
Had to put a starter in it @269k. It still runs today.
So i got another Honda.
I had a mid eighties GM.
Had to drive an 07 too.
Swear they had same automatic, i killed 13 in the 1st, blew the 07s too.
Ill never buy another.
Guess im not alone.

Tarponator said:

The Honda Element was an amazing machine.   There's one sitting in my garage now with 260k.   What year did you have?

FWIW, I've owned two Tahoes.  I sold the first at 175k, and the second just topped 100k.  Both have been great trucks, and I will likely buy a third if those battery powered trucks don't hurry up. 

I had a 2006 Element(bought it new) that only required a new battery every 3 years and 1 alternator that I replaced because it had a slight squeal but never failed... but nothing else, ever. At 9 years old it had 330,000 miles on it and some lady pulled in front of me and the insurance company totaled it. They gave me $8500 for it. Couldnt believe that much. It was so reliable that I drove it to Cali and back at 280,000 miles without a second thought. I had one set of tires that lasted 200,000 miles, Michelin stopped making them because they were too good.

cadman

Just saw this today.

Mister's next car