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The amendments

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  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 20,592 AG
    For those of you not aware of the process to amend the Florida constitution:  https://dos.myflorida.com/elections/laws-rules/constitutional-amendments/

    In short, either the people, the legislature, or two nominated committees can propose amendments that are then voted on by voters.
    Thanks. So these ballot proposals are actually constitutional amendments?  Did I read your link correctly that they have to pass by 60% if voted on by the people?  If that is true then they should at least require a quorum of registered voters to have voted.  What is the checks and balances to determine constitutionality of a constitutional amendment?
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited October 2018 #33
    In the order you ask and to the best of my imperfect knowledge:

    Yes, the ballot proposals represent constitutional amendments.

    Yes and no -- it's 60% of those who vote on the amendment.

    Ultimately, the courts are the checks and balances.


  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 20,592 AG


    Ultimately, the courts are the checks and balances.


    If it is a constitutional amendment, how could it be unconstitutional(at the state level)?
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    On your 60% question, here's the clause, with the answer offered above confirmed below in bold:

    SECTION 5. Amendment or revision election.—
    (a) A proposed amendment to or revision of this constitution, or any part of it, shall be submitted to the electors at the next general election held more than ninety days after the joint resolution or report of revision commission, constitutional convention or taxation and budget reform commission proposing it is filed with the custodian of state records, unless, pursuant to law enacted by the affirmative vote of three-fourths of the membership of each house of the legislature and limited to a single amendment or revision, it is submitted at an earlier special election held more than ninety days after such filing.
    (b) A proposed amendment or revision of this constitution, or any part of it, by initiative shall be submitted to the electors at the general election provided the initiative petition is filed with the custodian of state records no later than February 1 of the year in which the general election is held.
    (c) The legislature shall provide by general law, prior to the holding of an election pursuant to this section, for the provision of a statement to the public regarding the probable financial impact of any amendment proposed by initiative pursuant to section 3.
    (d) Once in the tenth week, and once in the sixth week immediately preceding the week in which the election is held, the proposed amendment or revision, with notice of the date of election at which it will be submitted to the electors, shall be published in one newspaper of general circulation in each county in which a newspaper is published.
    (e) Unless otherwise specifically provided for elsewhere in this constitution, if the proposed amendment or revision is approved by vote of at least sixty percent of the electors voting on the measure, it shall be effective as an amendment to or revision of the constitution of the state on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in January following the election, or on such other date as may be specified in the amendment or revision.

  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 3,538 Captain


    Ultimately, the courts are the checks and balances.


    If it is a constitutional amendment, how could it be unconstitutional(at the state level)?
    You are right. If cant be at the State level. It is possible for the State constitutuon to contradict the Federal Constitution. 
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited October 2018 #37
    I would have thought that an amendment could be structured in such a way that it was at odds with other parts of the Florida constitution.  This contradiction would need to be settled in Florida courts.

    On the other hand, a contradiction between and amendment and our country's Constitution would need to be settled in federal court.

    But I'm not an attorney, I only share meals and argue with them on occasion.  And in this case I don't know the subject well enough to really even do that.
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 3,538 Captain
    edited October 2018 #38
    If the amendment is properly passed, it cannot be unconstitutional for its substantive content on the terms of its own consititution. If two provisions of a contradict, they’ll be reinterpreted in such a way to resolve the contradiction, likely in a way most in favor of the newer provision. 

    For example, Florida’s constitution has a provision against cruel and unusual punishment. Let’s pretend the Federal provision against C&U punishment doesn’t exist in the Federal Constitution. Just Florida’s provision. If the Florida legislature passed a law allowing thiefs to be drawn and quartered, there’s a high likelihood that the law would be overturned by the state courts on state constitutuonal grounds because it would be cruel and unusual punishment. If, however, a state constitutional amendment is then passed allowing thieves to be drawn and quartered, then the prohibition against C&E would have to be reinterpreted with the understanding that drawn and quartering thieves is not cruel and unusual punishment, or if it is, its a special exemption to the C&E provision. 

    Either way, what a constitution allows cannot be unconstitutuonal.
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 3,538 Captain
    I personally will vote against all of the amendments, even the ones I agree with. Constitutions should be amended very carefully with much debate and introspection. Not with deceptively worded soundbites designed to manipulate the masses. 

    That our constitution addresses swine farming, is a tribute to our ignorance as voters. 
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,389 AG
    I used to vote no on all amendments until the medical marijuana, The only one i really care about is #2 and will vote yes on it. Also, I am not a fan of dog racing. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,881 AG
    I would have voted yes on medical marijuana.  I THINK that one was pretty straight forward and not a Trojan horse.  Maybe the worst you could say is it would lead to recreational use legislation, but I'm not against that either.

    My point about who gets the amendments on the ballot are usually special interest groups and lobbyists.

    Captain Todd Approves

  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    X2 What bullfrog said. 
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,532 Admiral
    As a rule.... I vote no on all amendments.

    But ESPECIALLY on 13. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing..... What you will see on the ballot:

    "
    Ends Dog Racing
    Phases out commercial dog racing in connection with wagering by 2020.
    Other gaming activities are not affected."

    But there is a ton you do not see....

    1) This statement - “The humane treatment of animals is a fundamental value of the people of the State of Florida.” 
    This opens the door to banning all sorts of activities and pursuits involving animals. Aside from racing it can affect hunting, fishing, ranching, horseback riding, hobby activities people do with their pets.... A similar measure passed in Idaho.... Now Flyball, terrier races,Dachshund races and other things people do with their dogs as hobbies are illegal. Anything that involves an animal, speed or timing and involves any sort of trophy or prize is subject to being banned. If you think it is far fetched that this amendment will reach out to hobby sports like Terrier races, Flyball, etc. It has ALREADY happened in Idaho.... Idaho passed a law banning dog racing. IT was spun to make folks believe it would only effect Greyhound racing.... Wrong... Now terrier racing, flyball etc are illegal. A radio station in Idaho organized a Dachshund race for Charity but had  to cancel to avoid committing a felony. Amendment 13 is written more loosely than Florida's Law......

    2) This statement should concern all of us.... “The humane treatment of animals is a fundamental value of the people of the State of Florida.” This statement IS in the amendment. What does it mean... Who defines the meaning? Considering that the driving forces behind the amendment are all PETA and HSUS members, The answer should be clear... The Animal rights groups want to get this passed and use it to define what it all means. There is a reason that every Ranching, Farming, Cattlemen's, Livestock, farming, fishing, sportsman, and legitimate dog organization is AGAINST Amendment 13.

    3) The misconception is that the greyhounds are mistreated, poorly fed, etc.... Let me ask you this..... If you had a football team, would you mistreat them and feed them a poor diet?  NO!!!! The dogs are athletes. They are exercised, conditioned, trained, and fed the best food. The training facilities, including whirpools, massage tables, etc at racing kennels and tracks rival the facilities at some college athletic programs.  The dogs are with people all day, Trainers, handlers, kennel help.... There is an independent State Vet (that the track pays for) at every track. The dogs are examined weekly. They are tested for drugs and illegal substances. Retired greyhounds transition very easily into pet homes. They are successful in that transition because of the care, human interaction, and socialization they received from their handlers and trainers.

    4) The racing and gambling with go on.... The tracks in Florida are licensed para mutual betting sites. There is nothing to prevent the tracks from showing simulcast racing from other states or other countries and accepting bets. Already happens with both horses and greyhounds. In fact.... In Florida you do not even need to leave your house to legally bet on dogs or horses. You can do it right from your smartphone, tablet or computer. Sites like TVG and Bet America take bets on both dogs and horses. At tracks all over the world.

    5) That brings us to if this thing passes..... What happens to the 15  thousand dogs, give or take, that are in racing kennels in Florida?  A few of the VERY best dogs will be sold off to racing kennels in places like Alabama, West Virginia, Mexico, South East Asia. But all those places have already have established racing kennels. So they are only going to be interested in a very few select dogs. Those kennels are only going to spend the money and go through the trouble with dogs they think will improve their programs. A few dogs will go through rescues and shelters.... But MOST?  Most will be euthanized... And compared to going to kennels in other states or other countries.... The Euthanized dogs will probably be the lucky ones... Florida has the most strict regulations on greyhound racing in the World....

    IF Banning greyhound racing is a good idea..... Why do all of these greyhound rescue organizations oppose it?
    • Heartland Greyhound Adoption
    • Race Place Retire Greyhound Adoption
    • Greyhound Pet Adoption Las Vegas
    • Greyhound Retirement Adoption Care and Education
    • After the Track Greyhound Adoption
    • 4 Greyhound Racers
    • ACT Greyhounds
    • Adopt A Greyhound Atlanta
    • Adoptable Greythounds of Florida
    • Alabama Greyhound Rescue and Adoption Center
    • Allies for Greyhounds
    • Arizona Adopt A Greyhound
    • Awesome Greyhound Adoptions
    • Bay Area Greyhound Adoptions
    • Bluegrass Greyhound Adoption
    • Box to the Wire Greyhound Adoption
    • California Greyhound Adoption Promotion
    • Camp Greyhound
    • Connecticut Greyhound Adoption (GPA)
    • Crazy for Greyhounds Adoption
    • Everything Grey Greyhound Haven
    • Everything Greyt
    • Fast Friends Greyhound Adoption Sarasota
    • FastK9’s Greyhound Adoption
    • Fly Girls United

    Continued



  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,532 Admiral
    • Forever Home Greyhound Adoptions
    • Gemini’s Pampered Greyhounds
    • Gillian’s Greyhound Adoption
    • God’s Greyts Greyhound Group
    • Going Home Greyhounds
    • Gold Coast Greyhound Adoptions
    • GPA Charleston
    • GPA Greater Northwest
    • GPA Massachusetts Adoption Center
    • GPA Tampa Bay
    • Greyed A Greyhound Assistance and Placement Services
    • Greyhound Action League of Buffalo
    • Greyhound Adoption of Ohio
    • Greyhound Alliance
    • Greyhound Angels Adoption of New Jersey
    • Greyhound Crossroads
    • Greyhound Pet Adoption Florida Southeast
    • Greyhound Pets of America — Canada
    • Greyhound Pets of America Indianapolis
    • Greyhound Pets of America Lexington
    • Greyhound Pets of Arizona
    • Greyhound Pets of Atlantic Canada
    • Greyhound Placement Service of New Hampshire
    • Greyhound Rescue Foundation of Tennessee
    • Greyhound Rescue of New York
    • Greyhound Support Transport
    • Greyhounds as Pets Northeast Florida
    • Greyt Love Retirement
    • Greytful Hearts Greyhound Rescue
    • Greythounds of Eastern Michigan
    • GST’s Sun State Greyhound Adoption
    • Halfway Home Greyhound Adoption
    • Hounds of the Heartland
    • Iowa Greyhound Park Adoption Center
    • It’s a Grey Area Greyhound Adoption
    • James River Greyhounds
    • Keystone Greyhounds
    • Mid-South Greyhound Adoption Option
    • Midwest Greyhound Adoption
    • Music City Greyhound Adoption
    • New Mexico Greyhound Connection (GPA)
    • Northern Greyhound Adoptions
    • Northern Lights Greyhound Adoption
    • Northern Sky Greyhound Adoption Association
    • Northwest Canadian Greyhound League
    • Paws on the Mountain Greyhound Adoption
    • Personalized Greyhounds
    • PRO Greyhound
    • Project Racing Home Greyhound Adoptions
    • Pups Without Partners Greyhound Adoption
    • Pure Michigan Greyhound Adoption (GPA)
    • Racing Home Greyhound Adoption
    • Rainbow’s End Greyhound Adoption
    • Running the Rail Greyhound Adoption
    • Second Chance Greyhounds
    • Southern California Greyhound Adoption Legion
    • Star City Greyhound Adoptions
    • Sunburst Project
    • The League of Extraordinary Greyhounds
    • Triangle Greyhound Society
    • Wheeling Island Greyhound Adoption Center





  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,881 AG
    Because if Greyhound racing goes away they lose their supply and therefore close them?  Just a thought.  

    Captain Todd Approves

  • swampwalkerswampwalker Posts: 2,359 Captain
    If I totally understand and agree with an amendment- I'll vote yes. However, my other thought is if we made it this long without it, voting no shouldn't adversely impact us. So if there's any doubt vote no. A sound amendment will come up again down the road with better wording. 
    The original - "Renaissance Redneck"
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,389 AG
    Looks like they all might pass, number one is the only one close. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,881 AG
    Judging by the numbers it appears many more people vote opposite of me and just blindly vote Yes.  Based on that I don't think they should have these amendments on the ballot.  

    Captain Todd Approves

  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    There will be a lot of greyhounds put down in the coming months. 
  • tagtag Posts: 8,920 Admiral
    Florida voters are suckers and will pass almost anything place on the ballot. Most do no research ahead of time and just use the misleading wording on the ballot
  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,881 AG
    I just discovered ballotpedia.org a day late.  Itd be nice if people had to research the amendments on that site to vote on them.  Hopefully we don't see too many unintended consequences from these passing.

    Captain Todd Approves

  • LostconchLostconch Posts: 792 Officer
    It seems that they voted yes on everything
  • aimlowaimlow Stuart? MaybePosts: 17 Greenhorn
    tag said:
    Florida voters are suckers and will pass almost anything place on the ballot. Most do no research ahead of time and just use the misleading wording on the ballot
    This.  Between "bundled" amendments where non-connected issues are included and snuck thru, and the generally complexity of many amendments, all usually pass.  Sure way to get it to pass?  Call it the "free phone" amendment.
  • lilwoodylilwoody Posts: 1,121 Officer
    I want a amendment to limit the number of amendments that can be on the ballot to the 5 with the most verified signatures on their perspective petitions.. Also limit these amendments to every presidential election cycle and make changing it via ballot to 60% of the REGISTERED VOTERS in the state, not those who just show up.
    "Those who will trade freedom for security will have neither".
  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 27,763 AG
    lilwoody said:
    I want a amendment to limit the number of amendments that can be on the ballot to the 5 with the most verified signatures on their perspective petitions.. Also limit these amendments to every presidential election cycle and make changing it via ballot to 60% of the REGISTERED VOTERS in the state, not those who just show up.
    Do you think illegal voting was a factor in the election?  
    Vote for the other candidate
  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,881 AG
    His point is an absent vote should count as a no just like when representatives don't show up to vote on legislation or abstain.

    I agree the amendments should be limited or harder to get on the ballot.  

    Captain Todd Approves

  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 27,763 AG
    mplspug said:
    His point is an absent vote should count as a no just like when representatives don't show up to vote on legislation or abstain.

    I agree the amendments should be limited or harder to get on the ballot.  
    The people you elected put those amendments on the ballot.  Elect different people.
    Vote for the other candidate
  • conchydongconchydong Pompano BeachPosts: 7,374 Admiral
    Mister-Jr said:
    mplspug said:
    His point is an absent vote should count as a no just like when representatives don't show up to vote on legislation or abstain.

    I agree the amendments should be limited or harder to get on the ballot.  
    The people you elected put those amendments on the ballot.  Elect different people.

    Special interest groups get amendments put on the ballot. They just need the signatures. How do you think the net ban got on the ballot?

    “Everyone behaves badly--given the chance.”
    ― Ernest Hemingway

  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 27,763 AG
    I believe you are correct

    Citizens of Florida may initiate constitutional amendments or call a constitutional convention via initiative. Florida residents may not directly initiate legislation or repeal legislation via veto referendum. The Florida State Legislature may also place measures on the ballot as legislatively referred constitutional amendments. Florida also has two commissions, the Taxation and Budget Reform Commission and the Constitution Revision Commission, which meet every 20 years and have the power to place amendments on the ballot.
    Vote for the other candidate
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