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Good Shoot?

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  • Gary SGary S Posts: 2,312 Captain
    So the commissioner should have waited for the shoplifter to hit him with the hatchet before he shot? 
  • pottydocpottydoc Port Saint JoePosts: 4,147 Captain
    If you really were fixing it for me, then surely you'd be able to point to a post where I have suggested much less said anything to the contrary.

    You guessed wrong and are making things up.

    But perhaps you're just confused -- that seems to be going around today, and I wouldn't want to presume your guilt without giving you the benefit of the doubt.  :)
    Id have to copy and paste about 2/3 of the Kavanaugh thread. I made the point there that any guy accused of sexual assault immediately was presumed guilty, and you tried every way possible to deny it. It seemed pretty clear that you were in agreement with the guilty until proven innocent over there. Quit acting like your some kind of ultra fair guy who never judges anyone, and is “above” the mess that some of these threads turn into. Yore no different, and dang sure no better, than anyone else here. Maybe you don’t even realize what you would like, but I don’t think that’s the case. 
  • MRichardsonMRichardson Posts: 10,446 AG
    Gary S said:
    So the commissioner should have waited for the shoplifter to hit him with the hatchet before he shot? 
    That's a fabricated scenario.  The shoplifter was attempting to flee.

    People who relish the idea of killing others for being defective are worse than the defects they wish to kill. Very few crimes warrant killing someone.  Of the 2, the commissioner is by far the worse person.  As are those on here who support his actions.  Horrible people, who should be shot.
    I have never seen live bones, but I know that they are often used by rich people to decorate the interior.
  • pottydocpottydoc Port Saint JoePosts: 4,147 Captain
    cadman said:
    pottydoc said:
    STarponator said:



    There's a reason for equal justice under the law and the presumption of innocence, even if you don't necessarily value it. Unless, of course, you are accused of sexual assault. Then you are obviously guilty. 
    Fixed it for you Tarp. 
    I guess you have different views, depending on what someone is accused of. 🙄

    Much like this guy is being tried in the court of public opinion, so can others. But in a criminal proceeding, both would be innocent until proven guilty. What the public thinks of you and what is legal rights are two different things, s we see here. 

    Also, did someone get shot because they were accused of sexual assault? I missed that news story.
    Cad, while it obviously happens all the time, there are usually people on both sides of anything other than sexual assault cases. Just as there are on this thread. When someone is accused of sexual assault, for the most part, they are considered guilty. no matter if there is very little if any, evidence. Tarp is just acting his usual “I’m better than you” self with his remarks. And who said anything about someone being shot?
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited October 2018 #66
    pottydoc said:
    If you really were fixing it for me, then surely you'd be able to point to a post where I have suggested much less said anything to the contrary.

    You guessed wrong and are making things up.

    But perhaps you're just confused -- that seems to be going around today, and I wouldn't want to presume your guilt without giving you the benefit of the doubt.  :)
    Id have to copy and paste about 2/3 of the Kavanaugh thread. I made the point there that any guy accused of sexual assault immediately was presumed guilty, and you tried every way possible to deny it. It seemed pretty clear that you were in agreement with the guilty until proven innocent over there. Quit acting like your some kind of ultra fair guy who never judges anyone, and is “above” the mess that some of these threads turn into. Yore no different, and dang sure no better, than anyone else here. Maybe you don’t even realize what you would like, but I don’t think that’s the case. 
    Please do find a quote in the Kavanaugh thread where I said someone should be presumed guilty.  Again, you can't because I am very consistent on this point. 

    I'm not pretending I'm any kind of ultra fair guy, I am a human just like you and subject to all the same emotions and shortcomings, but I try very hard not to judge people guilty of a crime until I have the benefit of the evidence.  That doesn't stop me from forming or expressing an opinion on the topic, but it does stop me from presuming guilt or innocence on these sorts of issues (sexual assault or murder) which can really only be done in a court of law -- my point in this thread AND that one.

    What I think is happening though, really, is some are confusing an opinion on guilt or innocence (i.e. public opinion) with actual guilt or innocence (i.e. in a court of law).  The same difference between "I think he is a murder" and "He is guilty of murder".  The first is an opinion (and we all have them) and the second is actual guilt or innocence before the law. Incidentally, Cad was touching on this point in his repose to you, and I think he's dead on as we are saying the same thing in slightly different ways.

    Please stop correcting my posts by editing them into something I've not said, inferred, or believe.  Or if you do, expect me to push back where I disagree and ask you, again, to show me where I've said anything to the contrary.

    And when you can't we both know why.  But I'm not judging.  :)

  • pottydocpottydoc Port Saint JoePosts: 4,147 Captain
    Pot, meet kettle. On the Kavanaugh thread, you accused me of posting untrue and wrong statements. I asked you to show one thing that I posted that was incorrect. It still hasn’t happened. And we both know why. But I’m not judging. 
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    Last I checked, Potty, accusing you of posting untrue things is not agains the law.  And therein lies the difference.  

    At ther risk of repeating myself:

    What I think is happening though, really, is some are confusing an opinion on guilt or innocence (i.e. public opinion) with actual guilt or innocence (i.e. in a court of law).  The same difference between "I think he is a murder" and "He is guilty of murder".  The first is an opinion (and we all have them) and the second is actual guilt or innocence before the law. Incidentally, Cad was touching on this point in his repose to you, and I think he's dead on as we are saying the same thing in slightly different ways.

    Get it yet?
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited October 2018 #69
    p.s. if you provide a pointer to which post in the Kavanaugh thread you're referring to, I'd be happy to address which points I said were "untrue and wrong" and explain why I said that.  There was a lot of back and forth in that thread and I do not recall the specifics of what you describe above.  Thanks.
  • RStyleRStyle Posts: 1,488 Officer
    Well.......maybe we should go around major cities and homeless camps shooting and killing anyone with any object that could be a weapon. A pencil? A rusty old bike? A screwdriver? A bottle? Wondering what would make a better world...homeless people or a bunch of people wanting to shoot them without good reason.
  • Jack HexterJack Hexter New Port RicheyPosts: 5,050 Moderator
    Apparently a State Attorney and a Grand Jury decided it was a bad shoot.
  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 27,763 AG
    Brian Haas, state attorney for the 10th district of Florida, told a news conference that on Friday a grand jury indicted Dunn on a charge of second-degree murder.

    I say at least 20 years.


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting/florida-city-official-charged-in-store-shooting-caught-on-video-idUSKCN1MU0SU 
    Vote for the other candidate
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 3,538 Captain
    2nd Degree Murder is overcharge. I predict it will end up either with a conviction or plea to manslaughter or a walk.

    Manslaughter: "The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084."

    vs 

    2nd Degree Murder: "The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    He didn't unload his gun into the guy as he laid there. He just seemed intent on stopping the guy from leaving with a hatchet. I wouldn't necessarily believe that the shop owner felt in danger. But I could believe he was acting primarily out of concern of what the guy would do with the hatchet when he left. That would be my concern. I often think about what would happen if a bad person got a hold of my guns and what I'd need to do to stop them lest they take the gun and do something bad with it to an innocent third party. 

    The shop owner's actions might amount to an ignorant decision that isn't legally justified. But not a depraved mind. A depraved mind most often translates into anger or rage or something that causes a person to act with malice. The difference between First and Second degree murder is the degree of forethought put into it. Two guys who are cussing each other's mommas and one pulls a gun right then and shoots without evidence of a prior intention to kill the victim is 2nd degree murder. Same two guys arguing and one leaves to get a gun and comes back and shoots the other, that's 1st. 

    Don't put stock in what a grand jury does one way or the other. The prosecutor can make the grand jury do whatever he or she wants it to based on what is and isn't presented. Long gone are the days when grand juries were actual gatekeepers of the justice system. 


  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 3,538 Captain
    One other thing. 2nd degree murder is probably the most common "overcharge" I regularly see prosecutors do, and its also the one juries are the fastest to correct thru a verdict of guilty to the lessor offense. 
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,389 AG
    edited October 2018 #76
    You are probably right about manslaughter being the correct charge. I actually think he was mad because the guy was stealing and that is why he shot him. 

    Dunn allegedly said he was in fear, but when he was asked by police what would have happened if he let go of Lopez, Dunn replied, "It might be fair to say, that if I just stepped back and let somebody come in and take what they want, that there would be no issue," 

    I hate shoplifters myself, but you can't shoot them. 

    BTW, he shot the guy twice, the second shot was in the back. 

    If he is convicted, his next issue will be the civil suit the homeless guy's family is filing.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-city-commissioner-charged-second-degree-murder-fatal-shooting-shoplifter-n922216

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • swampwalkerswampwalker Posts: 2,359 Captain
    As much as I respect and value Bulfrogs thoughts, gotta think there is no proof the hatcet theft was to do bodily harm to someone. I've used a hatchet working in the yard many times to do a little edging and speccialized trimming. A hatchet is a tool. This case will be interesting to watch. 
    The original - "Renaissance Redneck"
  • dragon baitdragon bait Posts: 9,254 Admiral
    2nd Degree Murder is overcharge. I predict it will end up either with a conviction or plea to manslaughter or a walk.

    Manslaughter: "The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084."

    vs 

    2nd Degree Murder: "The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    He didn't unload his gun into the guy as he laid there. He just seemed intent on stopping the guy from leaving with a hatchet. I wouldn't necessarily believe that the shop owner felt in danger. But I could believe he was acting primarily out of concern of what the guy would do with the hatchet when he left. That would be my concern. I often think about what would happen if a bad person got a hold of my guns and what I'd need to do to stop them lest they take the gun and do something bad with it to an innocent third party. 

    The shop owner's actions might amount to an ignorant decision that isn't legally justified. But not a depraved mind. A depraved mind most often translates into anger or rage or something that causes a person to act with malice. The difference between First and Second degree murder is the degree of forethought put into it. Two guys who are cussing each other's mommas and one pulls a gun right then and shoots without evidence of a prior intention to kill the victim is 2nd degree murder. Same two guys arguing and one leaves to get a gun and comes back and shoots the other, that's 1st. 

    Don't put stock in what a grand jury does one way or the other. The prosecutor can make the grand jury do whatever he or she wants it to based on what is and isn't presented. Long gone are the days when grand juries were actual gatekeepers of the justice system. 


    Looking at the video he sure seemed  "evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life"



  • AaronCannonAaronCannon Northwest ArkansasPosts: 871 Officer
    As much as I respect and value Bulfrogs thoughts, gotta think there is no proof the hatcet theft was to do bodily harm to someone. I've used a hatchet working in the yard many times to do a little edging and speccialized trimming. A hatchet is a tool. This case will be interesting to watch. 
    Homeless.
    No yard to edge. Not likely to have much specialized trimming to do either.
    Easy to imagine some other scenarios that are more likely to need that kind of tool.

    But im not a juror.
    The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.
    Jeff Cooper
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,389 AG
    edited October 2018 #80
    What he intended to do with the hatchet is immaterial. There used to be a homeless guy around here that walked about with a machete. He never used it on anyone. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • Gary SGary S Posts: 2,312 Captain
    personally I think the theft of the axe was to be used by the homeless man to cut firewood. But showing it while someone has you by the shirt and holding a gun wasn't his best idea. And he paid for it.
  • swampwalkerswampwalker Posts: 2,359 Captain
    Hatchet was in hand holding the door. Homeless folks can get hired to do a little work. I know a lot of my church contacts help out at a homeless shelter near that location. As said by Cad what the use of the hatchet might have been is immaterial. 
    The original - "Renaissance Redneck"
  • Tough boy is going to Jail!

    This guy was not protecting himself, he was homeless hunting!

    This is going to be used against legal sain law abiding gun owners, just wait for it. This guy need to be sued by the homeless guys family until he has nothing and the needs to spend some time in jail to think about a terrible shoot.
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 3,538 Captain
    edited October 2018 #84
    The difference between 2nd degree murder and manslaughter is what was going thru the mind of the shooter. 2nd degree murder requires a specific mindset that manslaughter does not. That’s why his perception of the victim’s actions matter. If the shop owner thought there was a likelihood the guy was going to do something bad with the hatchet, that would go against 2nd degree murder, even if the shopowner was wrong or negligent in his decision making. A bad decision does not equal a depraved mind. 

    The really legally slick charge would be aggravated battery with a firearm. The penalties would be higher than manslaughter. Because the shooter used a firearm with discharge and that resulted in serious bodily injury or death, the 10-20-life statute applies. If convicted as charged for aggravated battery with a firearm with discharge/serious bodily injury, he'd face a 25 year minimum mandatory sentence with a possibility of life, without the state having to prove any intent to kill or any notion of a "depraved mind", which amount to the exact same penalties for 2nd degree murder with a firearm. Its the same legal benefits of charging him with manslaughter but with greater penalties. 
  • RStyleRStyle Posts: 1,488 Officer
    The two things that give legal law abiding owners, firearms and stand your ground a bad rap:
    1) the number of people murdered, robbed or threatened with illegal firearms
    2) not very smart legal owners that use their firearms inappropriately and like cowboys ( this guy,
        individuals in many road rage incidents, the guy that shot and killed a man at a gas station that pushed him as was 
        walking away in Clearwater.)
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    RStyle said:
    The two things that give legal law abiding owners, firearms and stand your ground a bad rap:
    1) the number of people murdered, robbed or threatened with illegal firearms
    2) not very smart legal owners that use their firearms inappropriately and like cowboys ( this guy,
        individuals in many road rage incidents, the guy that shot and killed a man at a gas station that pushed him as was 
        walking away in Clearwater.)

    There was also another murderin' Michael Dunn.  He shot the kid (Jordan Davis) in Jacksonville over a loud stereo.


  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,389 AG
    RStyle said:
    The two things that give legal law abiding owners, firearms and stand your ground a bad rap:
    1) the number of people murdered, robbed or threatened with illegal firearms
    2) not very smart legal owners that use their firearms inappropriately and like cowboys ( this guy,
        individuals in many road rage incidents, the guy that shot and killed a man at a gas station that pushed him as was 
        walking away in Clearwater.)

    There was also another murderin' Michael Dunn.  He shot the kid (Jordan Davis) in Jacksonville over a loud stereo.


    That guy got life without parole plus 90 years. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • Billy No MatesBilly No Mates Posts: 3,191 Captain
    Same as the Drejka case. Someone using an imaginary threat as a way of killing someone they simply wanted to kill.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    This is going to be used against legal sain [sic] law abiding gun owners, just wait for it.
    We're still waiting.....
  • Billy No MatesBilly No Mates Posts: 3,191 Captain
    Gary S said:
    So the commissioner should have waited for the shoplifter to hit him with the hatchet before he shot? 
    No. But he at least had to wait until he reached for it!
  • MRichardsonMRichardson Posts: 10,446 AG
    This is going to be used against legal sain [sic] law abiding gun owners, just wait for it.
    We're still waiting.....
    Stop being silly.  Just stop.
    I have never seen live bones, but I know that they are often used by rich people to decorate the interior.
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