Gator prices

mossyhorn9mossyhorn9 Posts: 304 Deckhand
Anyone know what the prices are looking like this year?
You can blame it on my rebel raisin'...

Replies

  • cfthcfth Posts: 409 Deckhand
    Our prices are out. 

    www.centralfloridatrophyhunts.com. 
    Capt. Grayson Padrick
    www.centralfloridatrophyhunts.com
    Alligator Hunts, Alligator Hunting Equipment, Alligator and Wild Game Processing
  • huntsfloridahuntsflorida Posts: 370 Deckhand
    Capt. Mark Clemons
    Everglades Adventures Inc.
    Alligators Inc.
    Alligators International LLC.
    www.huntsflorida.com
    South Florida's Finest Hunting Safari's for over 25 years for:
    Osceola Turkey, Alligator and Whitetail on over
    75,000 acres of South Florida's most private pristine ranches.

    Alligator Processing in State Certified and Inspected Facility.
    Follow our clients results on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/EvergladesAdventures
  • mossyhorn9mossyhorn9 Posts: 304 Deckhand
    Wow what happened to the prices?? They have really gone down the toilet the last couple years...
    You can blame it on my rebel raisin'...
  • cfthcfth Posts: 409 Deckhand
    The hide market is non existent for wild skins. 

    And I don’t mean it’s low. I mean you can’t sell them. 
    Capt. Grayson Padrick
    www.centralfloridatrophyhunts.com
    Alligator Hunts, Alligator Hunting Equipment, Alligator and Wild Game Processing
  • cracker4112cracker4112 Posts: 622 Officer
    Grayson--  Is this temporary or has something fundamentally shifted in the industry? Will wild skins come back?
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 854 Officer
    Grayson--  Is this temporary or has something fundamentally shifted in the industry? Will wild skins come back?
    Not until they effectively stop giving away all the eggs from wild alligators to farms. 
  • cfthcfth Posts: 409 Deckhand
    I personally don’t think that the eggs from the golden 30 are what caused the crash. That hasn’t changed in the last 20 years. 

    However it is is a fact that more eggs are collected now then in the past and that does generate more farm skins. 

    Farms are growning larger alligators now that are near perfect. 

    The bigger issue though in my opinion are the large quantities of low quality skins from a variety of countries around the world. 

    Caimen etc. China has changed some of there import policies etc.  

    The hide market has always been cyclic. 

    But it unfortunately I don’t believe that we are going to see skins ever return to what they used to be. 
    Capt. Grayson Padrick
    www.centralfloridatrophyhunts.com
    Alligator Hunts, Alligator Hunting Equipment, Alligator and Wild Game Processing
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 854 Officer
    cfth said:
    I personally don’t think that the eggs from the golden 30 are what caused the crash. That hasn’t changed in the last 20 years. 

    However it is is a fact that more eggs are collected now then in the past and that does generate more farm skins. 

    Farms are growning larger alligators now that are near perfect. 

    The bigger issue though in my opinion are the large quantities of low quality skins from a variety of countries around the world. 

    Caimen etc. China has changed some of there import policies etc.  

    The hide market has always been cyclic. 

    But it unfortunately I don’t believe that we are going to see skins ever return to what they used to be. 
    I agree. Time for Florida to make an over the counter recreational tag. 
  • huntsfloridahuntsflorida Posts: 370 Deckhand
    This crash was predicted years ago. The eggs have nothing to do with it. Louisiana collected 500,000 eggs from the wild this year.There is little if any demand for wild skins due to the high demand for skins in pastel colors. These can only be accomplished with a perfect skin. The only colors for wild skins are black, brown and sport rust etc. There is only a small demand for these colors. Farmers are getting better and better at raising perfect alligators thus the low demand for wild. It's only going to get worse as the farmers get better and larger.
    Capt. Mark Clemons
    Everglades Adventures Inc.
    Alligators Inc.
    Alligators International LLC.
    www.huntsflorida.com
    South Florida's Finest Hunting Safari's for over 25 years for:
    Osceola Turkey, Alligator and Whitetail on over
    75,000 acres of South Florida's most private pristine ranches.

    Alligator Processing in State Certified and Inspected Facility.
    Follow our clients results on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/EvergladesAdventures
  • huntsfloridahuntsflorida Posts: 370 Deckhand
    H20dad said:
    Grayson--  Is this temporary or has something fundamentally shifted in the industry? Will wild skins come back?
    Not until they effectively stop giving away all the eggs from wild alligators to farms. 

    They don't give eggs away. This was a record year. The state receives income from the egg collection program. This year around 650,000.00 We've tried to change it. Until we get a new governor nothing will change. After the election we'll make another attempt.
    Capt. Mark Clemons
    Everglades Adventures Inc.
    Alligators Inc.
    Alligators International LLC.
    www.huntsflorida.com
    South Florida's Finest Hunting Safari's for over 25 years for:
    Osceola Turkey, Alligator and Whitetail on over
    75,000 acres of South Florida's most private pristine ranches.

    Alligator Processing in State Certified and Inspected Facility.
    Follow our clients results on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/EvergladesAdventures
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 868 Officer
    At $17.5 million in tags for the same 130k gators, I would say they are certainly giving them away.
    Do the farms have any source of eggs other than wild?
    And if the farms are getting better and LARGER, at what point will it become a problem? Seems they will just want more, No?
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • cfthcfth Posts: 409 Deckhand
    Just to clear a few things up. 

    No there is not really another source for farms. 

    Also keep in mind that the survival rate from egg to adult is 2%. 

    So of the 130k eggs that mark was speaking of collected throughout the the state. (This includes private property) 2600 would make it to adult alligators. 

    Now if we simply round up to 50k collected on the public collection. 2% would be 1000 alligators. 

    Thats 500 permits or a value of 130k. (Assumed a permit at $270). 

    Capt. Grayson Padrick
    www.centralfloridatrophyhunts.com
    Alligator Hunts, Alligator Hunting Equipment, Alligator and Wild Game Processing
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 868 Officer
    That was quick!
    I knew when I posted that, that the mortality thing would come up. (as it should)

    How is adult defined? Do you have data to say 5' to 6'? It adds up quick.

    I'll clear things up a little too. I have NO agenda here, I am trying to learn what I can first and certainly appreciate and value your opinion and knowledge.
    And my other question..." if the farms are getting better and LARGER, at what point will it become a problem? Seems they will just want more, No?"
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 868 Officer
    edited August 15 #15

    Just looked this up on FWC..

    Wondering if hunting is already figured in to the survival rate??? HMMMM....

    If I understand those numbers above then only 35-40% of eggs collected are from public property and 60 to 65% from private. How much of that private property is actually public water? or connected to it?




    SURVIVAL

    About 1/3 of alligator nests are destroyed by predators (mainly raccoons) or flooding. The average clutch size of an alligator nest is 38. For nests that survive predators and flooding, an estimated 24 live hatchlings will emerge. Only 10 alligator hatchlings will live to one year. Of these yearlings, 8 will become subadults (reach 4 feet in length). The number of subadults that reach maturity (6 feet in length) is approximately 5. These estimates are for a growing alligator population. As a population matures (and has a higher percentage of large alligators), the survival rate would be expected to be lower, in part due to a higher rate of cannibalism.


    MORTALITY

    Eggs: Alligator eggs are susceptible to drowning, being crushed by the female, predation, and other less common calamities. Raccoons are the primary predator, although hogs, otters, and bears have been reported to depredate nests.

    Juveniles: Small alligators are eaten by a variety of predators including raccoons, otters, wading birds, and fish; however, larger alligators may be their most significant predator.

    Adults: Cannibalism, intraspecific fighting, and hunting by humans are probably the most significant mortality factors.

    Diseases and Parasites: Very little information is available in the scientific literature on wild alligator diseases and parasites. They are not believed to be a significant problem for wild alligators.

    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 619 Officer
    edited August 15 #16
    State gets $5 an egg.  What do the farms pay per egg? 

    So, this year the state made $650K from eggs (@ $5 an egg), which is 130,000 eggs harvested.

    If, the survival rate is 2%, as stated, then 130K eggs is, 2600 alligators to maturity
    @$270 a tag x 2600 = $702K potential revenue

    That's a $52,000 loss of revenue (or 8%) by selling eggs to farms, instead of selling tags.  Not to mention additional money into our local economy that is neglected.  This alone is significant and has fiduciary implications.

    That's all assuming the 98% mortality suggested above. If you let those eggs mature to 6ft, according the the FWC data, you'd have 13% survive (5 out of 38).  That would be 16,900 gators.
    @$270 a tag x 16,900 = $4.5 Million potential revenue
    THAT IS HUGE

    heck, just create a rec license, which is desperately wanted and needed, and sell those additional tags for $50
    @$50 a tag x 16,900 = $845K (still a significant gain in rev over $5 an egg to a farm)

    Since we're using a market model to manage our state resources...

    some important questions are,
    What are the real mortality rates (how are they defined)?
    What do the Out of State farms pay per egg?
    What percentage of eggs go to farms Out of State?

    WHY DON'T WE HAVE A REASONABLE RECREATIONAL OPPORTUNITY???


  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 868 Officer
    edited August 15 #17
    $135/Per tag

    State gets $5 an egg.  What do the farms pay per egg? 
    And that is a really good point. Would love to know what the collectors are making.
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 854 Officer

    What percent of tags fill?  It isn’t 100% unless it is my tag. Lol. State prefers commercial over recreational activity and then complains about not having revenue. Lol
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 Posts: 4,130 Captain

    If farmers want to farm eggs they should have to raise them on their own property and not be allowed to collect them off public land . Private sure go a head .

    living life as i like
  • cfthcfth Posts: 409 Deckhand

      The public collection this year retained closed to 50k eggs. 

    Not 135k. That includes private property. 

    Private property alligators Have nothing to do with the tag draw system. 
    Capt. Grayson Padrick
    www.centralfloridatrophyhunts.com
    Alligator Hunts, Alligator Hunting Equipment, Alligator and Wild Game Processing
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 868 Officer
    cfth said:

      The public collection this year retained closed to 50k eggs. 

    Not 135k. That includes private property. 

    Private property alligators Have nothing to do with the tag draw system. 
    That 50k was what I understood.
    The 135/tag that I posted was an attempt to correct spanglers math.:)
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 Posts: 4,130 Captain
    cfth said:

      The public collection this year retained closed to 50k eggs. 

    Not 135k. That includes private property. 

    Private property alligators Have nothing to do with the tag draw system. 
    AND HOW MANY EGGS ARE POACHED EVERY YEAR . LOOK AT THE GUYS THAT GOT CAUGHT A COUPLE YEARS AGO
    living life as i like
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 854 Officer
    cfth said:

      The public collection this year retained closed to 50k eggs. 

    Not 135k. That includes private property. 

    Private property alligators Have nothing to do with the tag draw system. 
    AND HOW MANY EGGS ARE POACHED EVERY YEAR . LOOK AT THE GUYS THAT GOT CAUGHT A COUPLE YEARS AGO
    And that is the rub. Allowing eggs to be sold makes every egg a target becuase you can’t tell the difference between legally harvested eggs vs illegal harvest. Based upon that bust it’s easy to assume that the public land egg harvest was about 5-10 times what is actually reported.  Lots of resources stolen from the public and a huge revenue deficit for the Fwc compared to public alligator hunting via permits where hiding a poached alligator is one heck of a lot harder than an egg. And yes I know alligators get poached just like every other game animal. But making 50,000 eggs disappear is many orders of magnitude easier than 50,000 adult or even young alligators. 
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,667 Admiral
    We will see a huge collapse in alligators particularly the large ones very soon..
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 619 Officer
    I thought 130K eggs was mentioned first and it fit the math that's been provided, so I went with it.
    ($650,000/$5 egg = 130,000 eggs)

    If it was 50K eggs, the state was only paid $250K for them...
    where did the other $400K in revenue come from within the egg collection program?

    They get $5 an egg

    What are those farms payin again?
  • bswivbswiv Posts: 6,920 Admiral
    The question of "survival".......the eggs harvested for the farms have SIGNIFICANTLY higher survival levels than do those in the wild. This being so, and remembering the 2% survival in the wild, the fact is that the greatest portion of the gators raised on farms are dead one. And I say dead because almost all of them would have died in the wild.

    The math and concept are not all that hard. 

    Also.......in many areas "egg collection" has zero to do with lower populations in the wild. Case in point is here on the St. Johns in the portions of Putnam, Clay and St. Johns Counties north of Palatka. Numbers crashed 9-10 years ago as far as larger gators go, with small ones being way down also. That crash was the result of both to many permits being issued for the public hunts, increased urbanization.....AND panic associated with the 3 deaths due to gator encounters in one year back then.

    After those 3 deaths the folks living along the river worked the nuisance trappers and the FWC to death. Every floating log would engender a nuisance call.

    I live on the river, worked it way back when gators in that area were rather spotty and then continued to live on it, work it and fish tournaments for 18 years as the numbers exploded and then crashed. First hand experience here.

    Same holds true for Crescent, George and I am sure other places I am not on regularly. Historical perspectives need to be longer than 5-7 years and assignments of causation are usually far more complicated than short-term perspectives will allow......though not always.

    In some ways, especially on the larger open public waters the problems will mimic those associated with coastal fish populations where we end up fighting over commercial/recreational and ignoring the bigger and more difficult issues of water quality, land use, education of those using/living around the resource and so-forth. 

    Long as we do that internal squabbling among those who have a vested interest in the resource thriving the pie will continue to shrink........and we'll be at each others throats while those truly responsible giggle at us. 
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 854 Officer
    bswiv said:
    The question of "survival".......the eggs harvested for the farms have SIGNIFICANTLY higher survival levels than do those in the wild. This being so, and remembering the 2% survival in the wild, the fact is that the greatest portion of the gators raised on farms are dead one. And I say dead because almost all of them would have died in the wild.

    The math and concept are not all that hard. 

    Also.......in many areas "egg collection" has zero to do with lower populations in the wild. Case in point is here on the St. Johns in the portions of Putnam, Clay and St. Johns Counties north of Palatka. Numbers crashed 9-10 years ago as far as larger gators go, with small ones being way down also. That crash was the result of both to many permits being issued for the public hunts, increased urbanization.....AND panic associated with the 3 deaths due to gator encounters in one year back then.

    After those 3 deaths the folks living along the river worked the nuisance trappers and the FWC to death. Every floating log would engender a nuisance call.

    I live on the river, worked it way back when gators in that area were rather spotty and then continued to live on it, work it and fish tournaments for 18 years as the numbers exploded and then crashed. First hand experience here.

    Same holds true for Crescent, George and I am sure other places I am not on regularly. Historical perspectives need to be longer than 5-7 years and assignments of causation are usually far more complicated than short-term perspectives will allow......though not always.

    In some ways, especially on the larger open public waters the problems will mimic those associated with coastal fish populations where we end up fighting over commercial/recreational and ignoring the bigger and more difficult issues of water quality, land use, education of those using/living around the resource and so-forth. 

    Long as we do that internal squabbling among those who have a vested interest in the resource thriving the pie will continue to shrink........and we'll be at each others throats while those truly responsible giggle at us. 
    The Fwc in its infinite stupidity forgets that those mortalities (the 98%) are food for other wildlife. The Florida wildlife commission should take that into consideration also. This mental illness of single species management under which they delude themselves is not a reality. The Fwc needs to be renamed the bass, panther, snail kite, and csss fundamentalist organization. Oh I forgot the grasshopper sparrow. Throw all the animals around them under the bus too. 
  • watergatorwatergator Fort Pierce Posts: 47 Greenhorn
    For every harvest report I fill out I make a comment that it was used recreationally (I didn’t sell any part of the gator) and that future licensing should reflect that sector of use by many hunters. I don’t know how much that will affect any of the thinking but I figure the more I can suggest it the more likely it is to be noticed by someone who can make a difference. 
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