They ARE moving cougars north

spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 695 Officer
THIS, is worthy of it's own thread
gladesman said:
Many here between the Glades and Orlando better wake up quick because while everyone spends hours here discussing this tag/report annual/limitTR/AL trick with no FWC concern as to total deer population IMO in order to reduce take and save it for panthers - the planning is well on it's way to move panthers NORTH of the Caloosahatchee as you all type. Hunters/customers better learn to juggle more than one ball at a time. We could all be being set up for another lag screw being put in in a big way but it will be inserted over years so U don't feel it until it's way too late. Check out the attached document (NOTES
Florida Panther Recovery Implementation Team Meeting
Fish and Wildlife Research Institute
St. Petersburg, FL
April 19-20, 2018)  and map  and correlate these meeting notes in your brain with ARs, TR, AL with no concern for knowing total deer population.

Source for notes and map - https://www.fws.gov/verobeach/FloridaPantherRIT.html  also use screen shot attached below titled "panther notes north JPG" to see what to clik on -

To aid y'all a bit with who's who in the PRIT meeting notes - Kipp Frolich is with FWC, Larry Williams is with USFWS, Elizabeth Fleming is with Defenders of Wildlife (DOW), Todd Holloman is with FSCA Fla Sportsmens Conservation Association, Kevin Godsea is with USFWS (manages panther refuge down south)

Within the notes mention is made to provide outreach (merely a CYA chore IMO so agencies and panther lovers like DOW et al can say we did ask your opinion)  to livestock producers and sportsmen but shortly after mention of them a clarification is made that where a panther is relocated to is for the panthers benefit and agencies will  defend their decisions since seldom will all who are impacted be satisfied.

This is coming for sure and these panther restoration concepts will negatively impact hunting elsewhere as it has down south or else they know it's a total waste of time.

Think about it (Fl Bullfrog will like this) down south we probably have over 200 panthers working 7/24/365 and that scenario is in development for central Fl as U read this - anyone that believes all this regulatory stuff isn't linked to panthers, needs to go buy that bridge in Brooklyn.

Many reasons to think so hard one gets a headache before supporting any of these rules whether advocated for by hunters/customers who have been swooned by their own selfish interests or not - IMO there may be more permanent loss in the end (over a decade or 2) rather than any short term selfish gain (over 3-5 years).

OBTW the cattle inventory map was a shocker to me - WOW we got a lot of cattle - I wonder how cattle/cows would vote on panthers being delivered to their pastures - hunters better start thinking like cattle and cows instead of being so self centered.

Be ready hunters since strategies are in development (as per these notes) for leaders of hunting organizations involved in panther relocation PRIT group to come to you and explain why y'all need to support moving panthers in to eat your deer and cause more limit of your success to help the cats - U kNOw just like the AR quality deer herd thing.
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Replies

  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 695 Officer
    kinda makes me wonder if swfwmd is intentionally restrictive to build the food supply for the cougars now. 

    A month or so ago, a friend and I drove down to Big C looking for snakes.  Left at 3am.  I am not bullsh..ing, between tampa and naples, we saw 50-60 deer on the side of the interstate.  At one spot, we saw 20 in a group.

    Been making that drive a long, long time.  Many, many more than most (I serviced contracts in monroe county for several years, on top of just making that drive for a 1000 different reasons over 40+years).  Never.  Never.  Have I seen anything like that.
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    edited August 8 #3
    Great!...north Florida needs an apex predator.
    133cbf2b243368b1ddb2f591a1988076--beach-posters-florida-travel.jpg
  • backyardhockeybackyardhockey Posts: 122 Deckhand
    Look at this way...,panther population boom ya might be able to hunt them some day
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,653 Captain
    Those posted documents are very damning. 

    I think a bag limit and tag and report will be good for the deer herd. But I’m not going to support giving the deer saved from poachers and the greedy to panthers. 

    I don’t think the good ole boys in the North will let panthers get established north or west of Gainesville. But, I don’t think hunters Orlando and southward will have much recource once the cats become established. It will depend 90% on what juries will be willing to convict on. Ocala is changing to rapidly to predict what would happen there. 
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    Deer hunters have one track minds and seem to want Florida managed like disneyland so they can kill more deer or make it easier to kill more deer. What's up with that? Deer hunting is just one type of hunting available in Florida and FWC should not bend over backwards to those who have this crazy deer hunting obsession. I do believe there is a distinction been outdoors-men who hunt deer and obsessed deer hunters.
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  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 695 Officer
    Not just deer.  You can't hardly hunt ANYTHING in sw florida. 

    WMA MAP

    Guess how many of those surrounding wmas are quotas?

    Looks like these cougars will run rampant as well.  They're gonna eat good.
  • ChonggChongg Posts: 462 Deckhand
    I like eating as much game meat as I can. For me, deer hunting is the best way to do that. The current rules allow for a meaningful harvest that lasts throughout the year, and I've not seen evidence that those rules are threatening the well-being of the deer herd.  
    I also support the reintroduction of panthers. And to save everyone's time, I'm not interested in arguing about it on the internet, either.
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    Chongg said:
    I like eating as much game meat as I can. For me, deer hunting is the best way to do that. The current rules allow for a meaningful harvest that lasts throughout the year, and I've not seen evidence that those rules are threatening the well-being of the deer herd.  
    I also support the reintroduction of panthers. And to save everyone's time, I'm not interested in arguing about it on the internet, either.
    I haven't been successful deer hunting the past couple years due to a quail hunting addiction and not getting quota hunts. I found that hogs during small game can fill the freezer....not a lot of hunters during small game and most wild pigs are tastier than deer IMO. Allowing pigs during small game keeps "big game" hunting alive for me and many of my friends.
    133cbf2b243368b1ddb2f591a1988076--beach-posters-florida-travel.jpg
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 695 Officer
    Even if you support the reintroduction, allowing it unchecked is irresponsible.  They've been proven to come back robustfully.
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,653 Captain
    edited August 8 #11
    On the flip side of that, environmentalist types have a tendency to act like there’s some sort of mystical force in the universe that gives animals a “right” to have priority over man. Where does that magic moral imperative come from? Not nature itself. Nature has no rules except survival of the fittest, which isn’t really even a rule, just more of a fact. If panthers want to reassert themselves, its on them to adapt to living around man. If they can’t huff it, its on them. 

    Panthers aren’t biologically necessary in north Florida. If they were, the ecology of the entire SE would have dried up and died decades ago. The only reason to reintroduce them is out of some sort of guilt for knocking them back. That’s not a valid reason. 

    Panthers are cougars. Period. They always were. The “they ain’t panthers anymore because of the Texas cats” argument is invalid because 500 years ago cougars lived in an unbroken genetic chain across North America with total interchange between eastern, middle, and western cats. A cat born in Texas could and would breed with a cat born in Florida. They always were one and the same species. The population that got cut off in south Florida became inbred. It wasn’t invalid to freshen their genes up.  

    Because they are and always were cougars, and because cougars aren’t rare, its really inconsequential whether they live on in the east or not. Life is a series of hard calls in a fallen world where incompatable interests compete for the same resources. It benefits man for them to go away from all but the most wild areas of North America. Tough cookies. 

    The Crackers didn’t wipe them out for giggles...
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    edited August 8 #12
    It is your opinion that removing top predators and mans harsh influence on our natural ecosystems is inconsequential and our right. No different than poisoning our waters in the name of progress. If you didn't have environmentalists fighting for natural lands...you wouldn't have any. It is not a frivolous argument that the physical and mental health of mankind is tied to our environment.
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  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 695 Officer
    edited August 8 #13
    Nature does have rules.  One of them is, nothing is forever.  More species have gone extinct than currently live on earth.  Way more.

    More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species,[1] that ever lived on Earth are estimated to be extinct -

    The idea that we have to save every single threatened species is ludicrous and futile.  All things go bye bye.  The horrible injustice here is that, the so called florida panther, is and always has been a cougar.  And not threatened at all.

    Not sayin we shouldn't be reasonable either, before someone on here goes jumping to some crazy **** conclusion.

  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 967 Officer
    Cyclist said:
    Chongg said:
    I like eating as much game meat as I can. For me, deer hunting is the best way to do that. The current rules allow for a meaningful harvest that lasts throughout the year, and I've not seen evidence that those rules are threatening the well-being of the deer herd.  
    I also support the reintroduction of panthers. And to save everyone's time, I'm not interested in arguing about it on the internet, either.
    I haven't been successful deer hunting the past couple years due to a quail hunting addiction and not getting quota hunts. I found that hogs during small game can fill the freezer....not a lot of hunters during small game and most wild pigs are tastier than deer IMO. Allowing pigs during small game keeps "big game" hunting alive for me and many of my friends.
    The fact you can justify in your mind that hunting quail is ok while mountain lions need to be protected is so consistent with your mental illness it is sickening.   Which species has the larger range?  Which species has seen its range decreased to most in the last 30 years?  Which species has an expanding range in regions it is hunted?

    peter you are a sick pos. 
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    edited August 8 #15
    H20dad said:
    Cyclist said:
    Chongg said:
    I like eating as much game meat as I can. For me, deer hunting is the best way to do that. The current rules allow for a meaningful harvest that lasts throughout the year, and I've not seen evidence that those rules are threatening the well-being of the deer herd.  
    I also support the reintroduction of panthers. And to save everyone's time, I'm not interested in arguing about it on the internet, either.
    I haven't been successful deer hunting the past couple years due to a quail hunting addiction and not getting quota hunts. I found that hogs during small game can fill the freezer....not a lot of hunters during small game and most wild pigs are tastier than deer IMO. Allowing pigs during small game keeps "big game" hunting alive for me and many of my friends.
    The fact you can justify in your mind that hunting quail is ok while mountain lions need to be protected is so consistent with your mental illness it is sickening.   Which species has the larger range?  Which species has seen its range decreased to most in the last 30 years?  Which species has an expanding range in regions it is hunted?

    peter you are a sick pos. 
    Why does this psychopath keep stalking me? I don't need a lecture on quail biology from some who obviously has no clue.
    133cbf2b243368b1ddb2f591a1988076--beach-posters-florida-travel.jpg
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    spangler said:
    Nature does have rules.  One of them is, nothing is forever.  More species have gone extinct than currently live on earth.  Way more.

    More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species,[1] that ever lived on Earth are estimated to be extinct -

    The idea that we have to save every single threatened species is ludicrous and futile.  All things go bye bye.  The horrible injustice here is that, the so called florida panther, is and always has been a cougar.  And not threatened at all.

    Not sayin we shouldn't be reasonable either, before someone on here goes jumping to some crazy **** conclusion.

    Man has accelerated the extinction because of greed, ignorance and laziness. You have absolutely zero argument. The modern extinction rate is normal...ha ha ha, that is based on ignorance and a self serving attitude.

    Even under our assumptions, which would tend to minimize evidence of an incipient mass extinction, the average rate of vertebrate species loss over the last century is up to 100 times higher than the background rate.


    133cbf2b243368b1ddb2f591a1988076--beach-posters-florida-travel.jpg
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 967 Officer
    The mountain lion issue in Florida is about the public being effectively completely removed from access to wildlife. 

    Look at Big Cypress as an example. Approximately 750,000 acres of public land that to hunt you have to either have a special vehicle permit, walk miles through sometimes waist or chest deep water to reach rare high ground, pay $100 a year to drive less than a dozen miles of road, or get a lucky permit draw every 5-6 years for access to one chunk to 40,000 or so acres where deer numbers have been decimated. The deer are largely gone from this huge area as are turkeys and hogs. 

    Nutjobs like Peter and other ecofreaks want this done to the rest of Florida, period. They don’t think you as a human should have any rights to wildlife becuase they feel their opinions are more important than your existence. 


  • ChonggChongg Posts: 462 Deckhand
    edited August 8 #19
    Bull Frog, I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you're saying. It is an indisputable fact that civilization has rendered many parts of this country inhospitable for the animals that once lived there. Animals like wolves, cougars, elk, etc. will never take back their full range. Time will tell if Florida is a suitable place for a modern-day cougar/panther population.   
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,871 Admiral
    appropriately tagged BOHICA, remember they just manage the land nothing else
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 695 Officer
    Nowhere did I say anything about the extinction rate or if it was normal.  People love to put words in you mouth around here. 

    Actually, earth's history is proving to have had many mass extinctions.  More than the big 5.  I'm certain you knew that already.. but for the benefit of others.




  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    edited August 8 #22
    H20dad said:
    The mountain lion issue in Florida is about the public being effectively completely removed from access to wildlife. 

    Look at Big Cypress as an example. Approximately 750,000 acres of public land that to hunt you have to either have a special vehicle permit, walk miles through sometimes waist or chest deep water to reach rare high ground, pay $100 a year to drive less than a dozen miles of road, or get a lucky permit draw every 5-6 years for access to one chunk to 40,000 or so acres where deer numbers have been decimated. The deer are largely gone from this huge area as are turkeys and hogs. 

    Nutjobs like Peter and other ecofreaks want this done to the rest of Florida, period. They don’t think you as a human should have any rights to wildlife becuase they feel their opinions are more important than your existence. 


    2% of Florida has not been altered by man. Not been logged, cleared, built upon, re-logged, fire suppressed, etc.The nut jobs are those who want to continue the same ole. The same ole BS is why 70% or more of our waters harbor fish you really shouldn't eat, etc.

    And for the deer. Some of the lazy hunters want populations held artificially high. Panthers have always eaten....now...they are just a scapegoat for people who can't hunt.


    133cbf2b243368b1ddb2f591a1988076--beach-posters-florida-travel.jpg
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 967 Officer
    Chongg said:
    ^I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It is an indisputable fact that civilization has rendered many parts of this country inhospitable for the animals that once lived there. Animals like wolves, cougars, elk, etc. will never take back their full range. Time will tell if Florida is a suitable place for a modern-day cougar/panther population.   
    They have no place here. Man has replaced their predator role. As have coyotes and bobcats. If they expand from the west as they are doing in other states then so be it. But this state driven removal of citizen access from public resources is absolutely criminal. 
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    H20dad said:
    Chongg said:
    ^I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It is an indisputable fact that civilization has rendered many parts of this country inhospitable for the animals that once lived there. Animals like wolves, cougars, elk, etc. will never take back their full range. Time will tell if Florida is a suitable place for a modern-day cougar/panther population.   
    They have no place here. Man has replaced their predator role. As have coyotes and bobcats. If they expand from the west as they are doing in other states then so be it. But this state driven removal of citizen access from public resources is absolutely criminal. 
    What do you do for a living?
    133cbf2b243368b1ddb2f591a1988076--beach-posters-florida-travel.jpg
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 967 Officer
    edited August 8 #25
    Cyclist said:
    H20dad said:
    Chongg said:
    ^I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It is an indisputable fact that civilization has rendered many parts of this country inhospitable for the animals that once lived there. Animals like wolves, cougars, elk, etc. will never take back their full range. Time will tell if Florida is a suitable place for a modern-day cougar/panther population.   
    They have no place here. Man has replaced their predator role. As have coyotes and bobcats. If they expand from the west as they are doing in other states then so be it. But this state driven removal of citizen access from public resources is absolutely criminal. 
    What do you do for a living?
    I do more to help the public good than you. Are we now going to do some virtue signaling?

    How do you justify hunting quail?
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 967 Officer
    Cyclist said:
    H20dad said:
    The mountain lion issue in Florida is about the public being effectively completely removed from access to wildlife. 

    Look at Big Cypress as an example. Approximately 750,000 acres of public land that to hunt you have to either have a special vehicle permit, walk miles through sometimes waist or chest deep water to reach rare high ground, pay $100 a year to drive less than a dozen miles of road, or get a lucky permit draw every 5-6 years for access to one chunk to 40,000 or so acres where deer numbers have been decimated. The deer are largely gone from this huge area as are turkeys and hogs. 

    Nutjobs like Peter and other ecofreaks want this done to the rest of Florida, period. They don’t think you as a human should have any rights to wildlife becuase they feel their opinions are more important than your existence. 


    2% of Florida has not been altered by man. Not been logged, cleared, built upon, re-logged, fire suppressed, etc.The nut jobs are those who want to continue the same ole. The same ole BS is why 70% or more of our waters harbor fish you really shouldn't eat, etc.

    And for the deer. Some of the lazy hunters want populations held artificially high. Panthers have always eaten....now...they are just a scapegoat for people who can't hunt.


    Yes, we get you hate people and yet you think you should continue living. Arrogance of such historical socialist qualities. 
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 8,978 Admiral
    **insert Villages joke here**
    People use statistics the way a drunk uses a street light, for support rather than illumination.
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,136 AG
    H20dad said:
    Cyclist said:
    H20dad said:
    Chongg said:
    ^I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It is an indisputable fact that civilization has rendered many parts of this country inhospitable for the animals that once lived there. Animals like wolves, cougars, elk, etc. will never take back their full range. Time will tell if Florida is a suitable place for a modern-day cougar/panther population.   
    They have no place here. Man has replaced their predator role. As have coyotes and bobcats. If they expand from the west as they are doing in other states then so be it. But this state driven removal of citizen access from public resources is absolutely criminal. 
    What do you do for a living?
    I do more to help the public good than you. Are we now going to do some virtue signaling?

    How do you justify hunting quail?
    Thanks for your vagueness, it is very helpful assessing your true character or lack thereof.  How do I justify hunting quail? I know the natural history of quail, why their populations were artificially high for so long, what the pressures are on their population, that hunting has virtually no impact on quail populations and I am a lousy shot. I have actively restored and managed more new quail habitat that my hunting ever thought about impacting.
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  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,960 Admiral
    I don't think the habitat is suitable for cougars in Gulf Hammock
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 Posts: 4,160 Captain
    I've been saying for years that they will be doing this and now you know they will . And the people saying the north florida guys will not let it happen I think that's funny to .
    living life as i like
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,653 Captain
    ANUMBER1 said:
    I don't think the habitat is suitable for cougars in Gulf Hammock
    Something to do with cat-hunting zombie .270s that rise out of the ground *cough* after being buried for several years. 
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