MINWR Petition For Catch and Release

Cavanaugh68

Reel Teal said:

The ducks left the refuge for other places bc of a lack of management. So did all their other birds. Look at what black point wildlife drive has become.

The fact that you want to catch and release only redfish and trout and let all the other be harvested shows this is only about business and has nothing to do with the fishery.

Trust me, you ask layne hamilton for a restriction and she will be behind you 200%.

As far as the comment about me only wanting it for my business, no and yes. I want to catch fish like the good old days. i want you to catch fish like the good old days. I want my neighbor to catch fish. I want other people to catch fish. Yes, I want my clients to catch fish. Who would not want that. You know on my days off I do like to fish. Heck I even want ANumber1 Art to catch fish!

Let's say this:

Bob from X-State calls me and wants to fish a day.

He buys a plane ticket

He had to have a phone too call me on

He buys a hotel room

He gets a rental car

he eats at a diner, maybe someone you know who owns it, then breakfast, lunch some where

He goes shopping here

He buys gas for his rental

He buys some snacks at the store he bought gas and even a sub

He pays me...

I go home pay my bills

I go shopping for groceries

I get gas in my boat and truck

I buy bait from a local bait store

I buy tackle

I buy rods

I buy reels

I go out to eat that night with my GF

I eventually buy a new boat and so on.

So that game fish or redfish or trout is worth a heck of a lot more money alive than dead. Because if when Bob from X-state had called and said "How's the fishing been Drew?" and I had said "well Bob, sucks, last whale was killed the other day." Bob would not be coming here and all that trickle spending would not have happened.

So for this to be about business, yes and no. This is what happens. You know this.

Reel Teal

Yeah, I got no sympathy for you there. And I really dont care about Bob. 

I got a job too. I put into the economy the same exact way you do. I dont think avis and delta run their business model on redfish stocks. I dont think you would be living under I-95 if you weren't a guide. You seem smart enough to find another job if all the redfish were eaten by people, which idk how that happens with a slot limit. Bc that's what this is about, people eating 18"-27" fish or a 15"-20" trout.

Redfish are no where near extinction. We have a slot limit to protect breeders and a strict 1 fish limit. Trout will continue to be hit the hardest by the pollution as they rely so heavily on the disappearing grassflats.

Cavanaugh68

Reel Teal said:

Yeah, I got no sympathy for you there. And I really dont care about Bob. 

I got a job too. I put into the economy the same exact way you do. I dont think avis and delta run their business model on redfish stocks. I dont think you would be living under I-95 if you weren't a guide. You seem smart enough to find another job if all the redfish were eaten by people, which idk how that happens with a slot limit. Bc that's what this is about, people eating 18"-27" fish or a 15"-20" trout.

Redfish are no where near extinction. We have a slot limit to protect breeders and a strict 1 fish limit. Trout will continue to be hit the hardest by the pollution as they rely so heavily on the disappearing grassflats.

Again that is FWC lumping an entire region into a stat. Keep telling yourself that. My point also was the amount of revenue brought in locally and not just to the airlines. Never mind. Just agree to disagree.

Rich M

I don't think I have ever fish inside the big portion of the lagoon north of Haulover - ever.  Been here 22 years but I do fish north and south of there.  Have watched the water quality go from crystal clear to clear as mud.

You are motivated by your career choice - which is fine, just don't tell me what a good steward all guides are - you guys provide a service to folks who want it.  Nothing wrong with you trying to get C&R so you can catch more fish.  I'd do the same if I was a guide and wanted to secure an income.

Nothing wrong with me fighting it either.  While you are putting playing clients on fish, I'm just trying to relax and get dinner out of it too - no reason for me to spend $50+/- to go fishing for the day if I can't bring home a dinner or two.  

The percentages of the airport, hotel, etc. income from fishing clients is likely very small.  I wonder if a decent rocket launch might pull in more folks but don't follow those either.  

What the refuge is hoping to do is reducing the take and then hoping to thump their chest to say - we increased the numbers of redfish and trout!  When all they really did is reduce the kill - the fish will still head to the inlet every year to do what they do.  They want to do the same thing with the ducks - kill less and claim an increase.

The habitat needs to get fixed. 20-30 years time-frame is not acceptable - the lagoon could be dead by then... 

I have a question - how much of your income do you stand to lose if you go C&R?  Or are most of your clients C&R already?

Cavanaugh68

Rich M said:

I don't think I have ever fish inside the big portion of the lagoon north of Haulover - ever.  Been here 22 years but I do fish north and south of there.  Have watched the water quality go from crystal clear to clear as mud.

You are motivated by your career choice - which is fine, just don't tell me what a good steward all guides are - you guys provide a service to folks who want it.  Nothing wrong with you trying to get C&R so you can catch more fish.  I'd do the same if I was a guide and wanted to secure an income.

Nothing wrong with me fighting it either.  While you are putting playing clients on fish, I'm just trying to relax and get dinner out of it too - no reason for me to spend $50+/- to go fishing for the day if I can't bring home a dinner or two.  

The percentages of the airport, hotel, etc. income from fishing clients is likely very small.  I wonder if a decent rocket launch might pull in more folks but don't follow those either.  

What the refuge is hoping to do is reducing the take and then hoping to thump their chest to say - we increased the numbers of redfish and trout!  When all they really did is reduce the kill - the fish will still head to the inlet every year to do what they do.  They want to do the same thing with the ducks - kill less and claim an increase.

The habitat needs to get fixed. 20-30 years time-frame is not acceptable - the lagoon could be dead by then... 

I have a question - how much of your income do you stand to lose if you go C&R?  Or are most of your clients C&R already?

I can understand where you are coming from. Most that see this and think we are only doing it for the $$$ and more clients. Which is not true, at least with me. I just want to see more fish for everyone to catch.

I know for every guide who wants this there are most likely thousands of recreational anglers who want it too. Like I said in my neighborhood alone there are at least 15 die hard fly fishermen that are snow birds that beg for it to go CR. They never keep any fish here, or elsewhere. They are ecstatic this "might" happen.

There is a new generation of anglers who never keep fish at all. Never. They are growing up with this attitude due to their family was CR and sport fishermen. They spend thousands to CR and do not want dinner out of it. Now I am not against CR every where. Just the lagoon is a small diverse area that is in decline of fish.

I am 100% CR on my charters. Have been 100% CR for  a decade now.  So your question and my answer would be I would most likely stay steady with my income. When a client calls me and says they want to keep fish and I can not talk them into CR I just send them to a party boat. I definitely will not refer them to a guide who is a meat hunter guide. So CR will mean more fish for everyone to catch. See I take the "keeping them" part out of the equation because I do not keep fish from the inshore waters here.

As far as guides bringing in money. Well they say in Florida there is over 500 fresh water guides. (Which I think is low) Cannot find how many saltwater ones there are. Must be at least 10,000 if not more. So you do the math. Comes to billions a year in income.

I also hope the area is fixed sooner too, but I doubt it.

I did see that there is now almost 2000 signatures for this to happen. Layne is going to have a hard time saying no to this now.

Cavanaugh68

Rich M said:

I don't think I have ever fish inside the big portion of the lagoon north of Haulover - ever.  Been here 22 years but I do fish north and south of there.  Have watched the water quality go from crystal clear to clear as mud.

You are motivated by your career choice - which is fine, just don't tell me what a good steward all guides are - you guys provide a service to folks who want it.  Nothing wrong with you trying to get C&R so you can catch more fish.  I'd do the same if I was a guide and wanted to secure an income.

Nothing wrong with me fighting it either.  While you are putting playing clients on fish, I'm just trying to relax and get dinner out of it too - no reason for me to spend $50+/- to go fishing for the day if I can't bring home a dinner or two.  

The percentages of the airport, hotel, etc. income from fishing clients is likely very small.  I wonder if a decent rocket launch might pull in more folks but don't follow those either.  

What the refuge is hoping to do is reducing the take and then hoping to thump their chest to say - we increased the numbers of redfish and trout!  When all they really did is reduce the kill - the fish will still head to the inlet every year to do what they do.  They want to do the same thing with the ducks - kill less and claim an increase.

The habitat needs to get fixed. 20-30 years time-frame is not acceptable - the lagoon could be dead by then... 

I have a question - how much of your income do you stand to lose if you go C&R?  Or are most of your clients C&R already?

I should say this as well. Even if I was not a guide I would still want this to be CR.

ANUMBER1

Cavanaugh68 said:

Rich M said:

I don't think I have ever fish inside the big portion of the lagoon north of Haulover - ever.  Been here 22 years but I do fish north and south of there.  Have watched the water quality go from crystal clear to clear as mud.

You are motivated by your career choice - which is fine, just don't tell me what a good steward all guides are - you guys provide a service to folks who want it.  Nothing wrong with you trying to get C&R so you can catch more fish.  I'd do the same if I was a guide and wanted to secure an income.

Nothing wrong with me fighting it either.  While you are putting playing clients on fish, I'm just trying to relax and get dinner out of it too - no reason for me to spend $50+/- to go fishing for the day if I can't bring home a dinner or two.  

The percentages of the airport, hotel, etc. income from fishing clients is likely very small.  I wonder if a decent rocket launch might pull in more folks but don't follow those either.  

What the refuge is hoping to do is reducing the take and then hoping to thump their chest to say - we increased the numbers of redfish and trout!  When all they really did is reduce the kill - the fish will still head to the inlet every year to do what they do.  They want to do the same thing with the ducks - kill less and claim an increase.

The habitat needs to get fixed. 20-30 years time-frame is not acceptable - the lagoon could be dead by then... 

I have a question - how much of your income do you stand to lose if you go C&R?  Or are most of your clients C&R already?

I can understand where you are coming from. Most that see this and think we are only doing it for the $$$ and more clients. Which is not true, at least with me. I just want to see more fish for everyone to catch.

I know for every guide who wants this there are most likely thousands of recreational anglers who want it too. Like I said in my neighborhood alone there are at least 15 die hard fly fishermen that are snow birds that beg for it to go CR. They never keep any fish here, or elsewhere. They are ecstatic this "might" happen.

There is a new generation of anglers who never keep fish at all. Never. They are growing up with this attitude due to their family was CR and sport fishermen. They spend thousands to CR and do not want dinner out of it. Now I am not against CR every where. Just the lagoon is a small diverse area that is in decline of fish.

I am 100% CR on my charters. Have been 100% CR for  a decade now.  So your question and my answer would be I would most likely stay steady with my income. When a client calls me and says they want to keep fish and I can not talk them into CR I just send them to a party boat. I definitely will not refer them to a guide who is a meat hunter guide. So CR will mean more fish for everyone to catch. See I take the "keeping them" part out of the equation because I do not keep fish from the inshore waters here.

As far as guides bringing in money. Well they say in Florida there is over 500 fresh water guides. (Which I think is low) Cannot find how many saltwater ones there are. Must be at least 10,000 if not more. So you do the math. Comes to billions a year in income.

I also hope the area is fixed sooner too, but I doubt it.

I did see that there is now almost 2000 signatures for this to happen. Layne is going to have a hard time saying no to this now.

ANUMBER1 said:

Reel Teal said:

spangler said:

I'm not sure where I stand on this, so I won't be signing that petition.  It's a clear loss of access.  No question about that.  Mostly, not sure it's smart or even makes sense for MINWR.  I think others should think twice too.  MINWR seems to be bent on removing access. 

5 year batches?  Based on what?  Nah

On the other hand, I do see value and probably necessity in establishing marine 'preserves'.  We've gotta be really smart about it though.  Maybe MINWR would make a good location for one.  Let's see some rationale.  Not push regulations because of emotion.  Has anyone read the reasons for signing?

Has anyone read the petition?

It talks about how poor the water quality is at MINWR.  It cites the cause as "pollution from human wastewater, fertilizer and herbicide use, and toxic chemicals from NASA and Patrick Airforce Base, as well as many other smaller influences". 

Ok, so... the solution is stop fishermen from keeping redfish and trout?? :shrugs

Why would you want to make a preserve in a place with poor habitat?

It helps the charter captains business. Theres used to be a guy out of Kennedy point in a blue maverick that used to yell at people on the water when he had a client. It's their water not yours. The fact that layne Hamilton had a meeting with guides and had overwhelming support for catch and release is not surprising. Those same guides will catch the same fish 7,8,9 times a year. A prominent captain did a study that was published in Florida today about 8 plus years ago where he caught the same reddish 7 times in 1 year. Its fish harassment.

I agree, all those type of guides want is less competition..

less competition = more $$$

Commercial brings 17 billion to Florida annually compared to 7.6 billion recreational.

spangler

It sounds a bit, as if, it's being suggested that c&r is the 'right' thing to do.  What a joke.  I mostly fish for food.  Not to stress out fish after fish after fish... there is a very real mortality rate associated with catch and release.  You guys prob kill more in an outing than the typical fisherman.

I think I'll start a petition to declare minwr a marine sanctuary.  No fishing allowed.  When it hits 2K sigs, (laughs), I'll demand Layne shut it all down rotflmao

Cavanaugh68

spangler said:

It sounds a bit, as if, it's being suggested that c&r is the 'right' thing to do.  What a joke.  I mostly fish for food.  Not to stress out fish after fish after fish... there is a very real mortality rate associated with catch and release.  You guys prob kill more in an outing than the typical fisherman.

I think I'll start a petition to declare minwr a marine sanctuary.  No fishing allowed.  When it hits 2K sigs, (laughs), I'll demand Layne shut it all down rotflmao

ANUMBER1 said:

Cavanaugh68 said:

Rich M said:

I don't think I have ever fish inside the big portion of the lagoon north of Haulover - ever.  Been here 22 years but I do fish north and south of there.  Have watched the water quality go from crystal clear to clear as mud.

You are motivated by your career choice - which is fine, just don't tell me what a good steward all guides are - you guys provide a service to folks who want it.  Nothing wrong with you trying to get C&R so you can catch more fish.  I'd do the same if I was a guide and wanted to secure an income.

Nothing wrong with me fighting it either.  While you are putting playing clients on fish, I'm just trying to relax and get dinner out of it too - no reason for me to spend $50+/- to go fishing for the day if I can't bring home a dinner or two.  

The percentages of the airport, hotel, etc. income from fishing clients is likely very small.  I wonder if a decent rocket launch might pull in more folks but don't follow those either.  

What the refuge is hoping to do is reducing the take and then hoping to thump their chest to say - we increased the numbers of redfish and trout!  When all they really did is reduce the kill - the fish will still head to the inlet every year to do what they do.  They want to do the same thing with the ducks - kill less and claim an increase.

The habitat needs to get fixed. 20-30 years time-frame is not acceptable - the lagoon could be dead by then... 

I have a question - how much of your income do you stand to lose if you go C&R?  Or are most of your clients C&R already?

I can understand where you are coming from. Most that see this and think we are only doing it for the $$$ and more clients. Which is not true, at least with me. I just want to see more fish for everyone to catch.

I know for every guide who wants this there are most likely thousands of recreational anglers who want it too. Like I said in my neighborhood alone there are at least 15 die hard fly fishermen that are snow birds that beg for it to go CR. They never keep any fish here, or elsewhere. They are ecstatic this "might" happen.

There is a new generation of anglers who never keep fish at all. Never. They are growing up with this attitude due to their family was CR and sport fishermen. They spend thousands to CR and do not want dinner out of it. Now I am not against CR every where. Just the lagoon is a small diverse area that is in decline of fish.

I am 100% CR on my charters. Have been 100% CR for  a decade now.  So your question and my answer would be I would most likely stay steady with my income. When a client calls me and says they want to keep fish and I can not talk them into CR I just send them to a party boat. I definitely will not refer them to a guide who is a meat hunter guide. So CR will mean more fish for everyone to catch. See I take the "keeping them" part out of the equation because I do not keep fish from the inshore waters here.

As far as guides bringing in money. Well they say in Florida there is over 500 fresh water guides. (Which I think is low) Cannot find how many saltwater ones there are. Must be at least 10,000 if not more. So you do the math. Comes to billions a year in income.

I also hope the area is fixed sooner too, but I doubt it.

I did see that there is now almost 2000 signatures for this to happen. Layne is going to have a hard time saying no to this now.

ANUMBER1 said:

Reel Teal said:

spangler said:

I'm not sure where I stand on this, so I won't be signing that petition.  It's a clear loss of access.  No question about that.  Mostly, not sure it's smart or even makes sense for MINWR.  I think others should think twice too.  MINWR seems to be bent on removing access. 

5 year batches?  Based on what?  Nah

On the other hand, I do see value and probably necessity in establishing marine 'preserves'.  We've gotta be really smart about it though.  Maybe MINWR would make a good location for one.  Let's see some rationale.  Not push regulations because of emotion.  Has anyone read the reasons for signing?

Has anyone read the petition?

It talks about how poor the water quality is at MINWR.  It cites the cause as "pollution from human wastewater, fertilizer and herbicide use, and toxic chemicals from NASA and Patrick Airforce Base, as well as many other smaller influences". 

Ok, so... the solution is stop fishermen from keeping redfish and trout?? :shrugs

Why would you want to make a preserve in a place with poor habitat?

It helps the charter captains business. Theres used to be a guy out of Kennedy point in a blue maverick that used to yell at people on the water when he had a client. It's their water not yours. The fact that layne Hamilton had a meeting with guides and had overwhelming support for catch and release is not surprising. Those same guides will catch the same fish 7,8,9 times a year. A prominent captain did a study that was published in Florida today about 8 plus years ago where he caught the same reddish 7 times in 1 year. Its fish harassment.

I agree, all those type of guides want is less competition..

less competition = more $$$

Commercial brings 17 billion to Florida annually compared to 7.6 billion recreational.

Is that gross from sales or the effect of what commercial fishing brings to the area? Because I think that figure for rec anglers is just license sales, tackle, reels, etc. Not what guides  clients spend here in the state. I am just curious.

Cavanaugh68

spangler said:

It sounds a bit, as if, it's being suggested that c&r is the 'right' thing to do.  What a joke.  I mostly fish for food.  Not to stress out fish after fish after fish... there is a very real mortality rate associated with catch and release.  You guys prob kill more in an outing than the typical fisherman.

I think I'll start a petition to declare minwr a marine sanctuary.  No fishing allowed.  When it hits 2K sigs, (laughs), I'll demand Layne shut it all down rotflmao

I can tell you do not like guides. It is clear in your tone.

So again in my neighborhood alone day after day after day during the winter the snowbirds are on the water. Just here alone. So for every guide fishing here there are 10,000 rec anglers. So who is killing more fish under your theory? They too are catching some and releasing them as well. I think you are way off on that. that means you are the one doing this to the mortality rate, not guides. I just don't get it why people just blame guides for everything bad on waters. You know we or I am not fishing 365 days a year 24 hours a day.

Go ahead call email write and do what you want with the refuge. You have that right too. If they made  the refuge a sanctuary I would 100000% support it and so would several other guides I know. We know other places to fish. That would be the best thing that could happen to the lagoon.  So please do write her and ask for that. I will be the first to sign it.

spangler

Absolutely wrong!  100% pro guide.  100% pro commercial.  100%  pro Recreational. 

1000% anti-cronyism and other ways of manipulating the system to one's greedy self interest, while shutting out competition.  To be clear. 

And besides, I just don't think it's a good idea.  You're not the only one interested in florida's ecosystems.  Some are working on ways that actually work and benefit all.  Many ways to improve minwr that I will get behind.  This is not one of them.

ANUMBER1

Cavanaugh68 said:

spangler said:

It sounds a bit, as if, it's being suggested that c&r is the 'right' thing to do.  What a joke.  I mostly fish for food.  Not to stress out fish after fish after fish... there is a very real mortality rate associated with catch and release.  You guys prob kill more in an outing than the typical fisherman.

I think I'll start a petition to declare minwr a marine sanctuary.  No fishing allowed.  When it hits 2K sigs, (laughs), I'll demand Layne shut it all down rotflmao

ANUMBER1 said:

Cavanaugh68 said:

Rich M said:

I don't think I have ever fish inside the big portion of the lagoon north of Haulover - ever.  Been here 22 years but I do fish north and south of there.  Have watched the water quality go from crystal clear to clear as mud.

You are motivated by your career choice - which is fine, just don't tell me what a good steward all guides are - you guys provide a service to folks who want it.  Nothing wrong with you trying to get C&R so you can catch more fish.  I'd do the same if I was a guide and wanted to secure an income.

Nothing wrong with me fighting it either.  While you are putting playing clients on fish, I'm just trying to relax and get dinner out of it too - no reason for me to spend $50+/- to go fishing for the day if I can't bring home a dinner or two.  

The percentages of the airport, hotel, etc. income from fishing clients is likely very small.  I wonder if a decent rocket launch might pull in more folks but don't follow those either.  

What the refuge is hoping to do is reducing the take and then hoping to thump their chest to say - we increased the numbers of redfish and trout!  When all they really did is reduce the kill - the fish will still head to the inlet every year to do what they do.  They want to do the same thing with the ducks - kill less and claim an increase.

The habitat needs to get fixed. 20-30 years time-frame is not acceptable - the lagoon could be dead by then... 

I have a question - how much of your income do you stand to lose if you go C&R?  Or are most of your clients C&R already?

I can understand where you are coming from. Most that see this and think we are only doing it for the $$$ and more clients. Which is not true, at least with me. I just want to see more fish for everyone to catch.

I know for every guide who wants this there are most likely thousands of recreational anglers who want it too. Like I said in my neighborhood alone there are at least 15 die hard fly fishermen that are snow birds that beg for it to go CR. They never keep any fish here, or elsewhere. They are ecstatic this "might" happen.

There is a new generation of anglers who never keep fish at all. Never. They are growing up with this attitude due to their family was CR and sport fishermen. They spend thousands to CR and do not want dinner out of it. Now I am not against CR every where. Just the lagoon is a small diverse area that is in decline of fish.

I am 100% CR on my charters. Have been 100% CR for  a decade now.  So your question and my answer would be I would most likely stay steady with my income. When a client calls me and says they want to keep fish and I can not talk them into CR I just send them to a party boat. I definitely will not refer them to a guide who is a meat hunter guide. So CR will mean more fish for everyone to catch. See I take the "keeping them" part out of the equation because I do not keep fish from the inshore waters here.

As far as guides bringing in money. Well they say in Florida there is over 500 fresh water guides. (Which I think is low) Cannot find how many saltwater ones there are. Must be at least 10,000 if not more. So you do the math. Comes to billions a year in income.

I also hope the area is fixed sooner too, but I doubt it.

I did see that there is now almost 2000 signatures for this to happen. Layne is going to have a hard time saying no to this now.

ANUMBER1 said:

Reel Teal said:

spangler said:

I'm not sure where I stand on this, so I won't be signing that petition.  It's a clear loss of access.  No question about that.  Mostly, not sure it's smart or even makes sense for MINWR.  I think others should think twice too.  MINWR seems to be bent on removing access. 

5 year batches?  Based on what?  Nah

On the other hand, I do see value and probably necessity in establishing marine 'preserves'.  We've gotta be really smart about it though.  Maybe MINWR would make a good location for one.  Let's see some rationale.  Not push regulations because of emotion.  Has anyone read the reasons for signing?

Has anyone read the petition?

It talks about how poor the water quality is at MINWR.  It cites the cause as "pollution from human wastewater, fertilizer and herbicide use, and toxic chemicals from NASA and Patrick Airforce Base, as well as many other smaller influences". 

Ok, so... the solution is stop fishermen from keeping redfish and trout?? :shrugs

Why would you want to make a preserve in a place with poor habitat?

It helps the charter captains business. Theres used to be a guy out of Kennedy point in a blue maverick that used to yell at people on the water when he had a client. It's their water not yours. The fact that layne Hamilton had a meeting with guides and had overwhelming support for catch and release is not surprising. Those same guides will catch the same fish 7,8,9 times a year. A prominent captain did a study that was published in Florida today about 8 plus years ago where he caught the same reddish 7 times in 1 year. Its fish harassment.

I agree, all those type of guides want is less competition..

less competition = more $$$

Commercial brings 17 billion to Florida annually compared to 7.6 billion recreational.

Is that gross from sales or the effect of what commercial fishing brings to the area? Because I think that figure for rec anglers is just license sales, tackle, reels, etc. Not what guides  clients spend here in the state. I am just curious 



supposed to be impact for both, Commercial ex-vessel (price to boat  for product) was aprox 230-40 million in 2016

spangler

fwiw, I don't think making minwr a sanctuary makes sense either.  That, was a joke too.  It's not good habitat.  A sanctuary needs to be somewhere that makes sense.  minwr does not.

Fix the habitat.  THAT, will fix your 'problems'.

CountryBumpkin

As always Drew, the more you post the more you show us what you are really like.

If you can't provide the service a client wants, you refer them to a "party boat" but not another guide.

But yet you can tell from the tone here that we just don't like guides.

YJCMTSU

Does it ever get hard to breathe up there?........with your head so far up in the "clouds".

Cavanaugh68

spangler said:

Absolutely wrong!  100% pro guide.  100% pro commercial.  100%  pro Recreational. 

1000% anti-cronyism and other ways of manipulating the system to one's greedy self interest, while shutting out competition.  To be clear. 

And besides, I just don't think it's a good idea.  You're not the only one interested in florida's ecosystems.  Some are working on ways that actually work and benefit all.  Many ways to improve minwr that I will get behind.  This is not one of them.

The fishing on the Mosquito lagoon has declined due to the lack of fish. So this is not greedy! It is wise to start and save what is left. How hard is that to understand. Ask any one on this forum who fishes here. Please ask. read the threads where they talk about this. I live here I see it every day. I talk to others who fish it often. Guides, recs, commercials. All say the same thing. They will tell you it sucks! Man I just do not get your thinking. Really tell me if all the sudden you were told by some statistic that the fish on the lagoon have declined would you support it then? Or are you just one of these persons that says let's deplete it first then try to fix it.

Please tell me then the solution and why putting a temporally moratorium on keeping redfish and or trout would hurt? And again it is just the refuge, not the Canaveral Seashore boundary.   

Cavanaugh68

spangler said:

fwiw, I don't think making minwr a sanctuary makes sense either.  That, was a joke too.  It's not good habitat.  A sanctuary needs to be somewhere that makes sense.  minwr does not.

Fix the habitat.  THAT, will fix your 'problems'.

I keep asking you this and you avoid answering. With the fish in decline what do we do? Keep killing them or stop it for a while and see what happens?

Cavanaugh68

CountryBumpkin said:

As always Drew, the more you post the more you show us what you are really like.

If you can't provide the service a client wants, you refer them to a "party boat" but not another guide.

But yet you can tell from the tone here that we just don't like guides.

YJCMTSU

Does it ever get hard to breathe up there?........with your head so far up in the "clouds".

And I am not the only who does this. I am definitely not going to send them to a guide who is just going to harvest the fish on the lagoon. You do not know anything about me. You do not know what my beliefs or values are about. At least I am trying to do something instead of just typing about it and putting smart a comments.

If a client calls me and wants to harvest fish I tell them I am not there guide. I say we are trying to save the fish that are left out here.

So I and others like myself that want to go catch and release here are the bad ones. Very interesting. And you wonder why a lot of people that used to post on here do not any longer.

Cavanaugh68

CountryBumpkin said:

As always Drew, the more you post the more you show us what you are really like.

If you can't provide the service a client wants, you refer them to a "party boat" but not another guide.

But yet you can tell from the tone here that we just don't like guides.

YJCMTSU

Does it ever get hard to breathe up there?........with your head so far up in the "clouds".

Every time something comes up about waters and a guide chimes in it is anti guide time.

And that comment about not liking guides was not aimed at everyone on here.

Listen each one of you has the power to act or don't act. With anything. Keep typing on here or do something that you believe in. And for the record, I did not start this petition. I just signed it, then copied the link on here. Another very pro active guide did. You got a beef with it talk to him.

And as far as my charters and clients who call me go, well, it is my business, my company so i can send them or tell them what ever I want. That is between me and them. So if you do not want to send me work then fine. No worries there. That is the nice thing about being the boss. I wonder how many other self employed business owners you say the same thing too.

Reel Teal

No one said you were bad for catching and releasing fish. More like you're bad for trying to mandate it on everyone for no other reason than you want it to be that way.

And it's funny how guys who never keep fish think someone who does is an enemy. I dont care what you do on your boat as long as you arent doing anything illegal. Anecdotal evidence isn't the best evidence, and heck you cant even see into the water down there, so how would you even know there arent fish. Maybe they've gotten smarter after being caught 30 times a year

Reel Teal

And the breeders are already protected.  Again this is all in reference to slot fish and not all redfish or trout. Yes trout allows 1 over, I am 100% aware of that. 

Dirty water is affecting fishing more than a few kept redfish.

spangler

Cavanaugh68 said:

spangler said:

fwiw, I don't think making minwr a sanctuary makes sense either.  That, was a joke too.  It's not good habitat.  A sanctuary needs to be somewhere that makes sense.  minwr does not.

Fix the habitat.  THAT, will fix your 'problems'.

I keep asking you this and you avoid answering. With the fish in decline what do we do? Keep killing them or stop it for a while and see what happens?

I've asked you a few questions as well.  All unanswered.  But sure, I will CONTINUE to answer any questions you might have that will benefit others reading this.

Trying unsubstantiated experiments, just to see what happens, is a complete waste of time for something like this and at this scale.  Especially, when there is NO science backing the idea of this petition.  There are already catch limits in place, for redfish and trout, that are working just fine everywhere else in the state. 

The fish in so called 'decline' will keep being repopulated by the surrounding stocks (redfish and trout are abundant).  So, nothing to worry about there.  However, those new fish, will just continue to avoid the waters around minwr, like the plague.  Just like they are doing now.  Even if you stopped ALL fishing for a decade, nothing will change.  That habitat will continue to degrade and become more and more.... uninhabitable. 

If I lived there, and my livelihood depended on the fisheries, I'd be asking, "How can we get this grass growing?"  Figure out how to get that done!  Devote your energy THERE!  THAT would be useful.  But, I guess, that doesn't do anything about your competition does it?  But go ahead, run around trying to put the fire out with a squirt gun.

So, let's revisit.  You are a guide, strongly advocating a regulation, that doesn't make sense, nor has an argument been made as to why it would make sense, BUT, presumably, would benefit you.  Keep in mind, all while taking away access from the general public.  Doing nothing to help the situation. 

I really hope people make it through this thread, before looking at that first post and willy nilly signing that petition! 

spangler

Not to mention, the way that petition is written is horribly leading.  Why the pollution speak?  Why not just say, fishing is poor, we wanna limit people taking them? 

The reason is, because the author of that petition knew it is a TACTIC that works.  I WILL be sure to point that out to Layne

ANUMBER1

spangler said:

Not to mention, the way that petition is written is horribly leading.  Why the pollution speak?  Why not just say, fishing is poor, we wanna limit people taking them? 

The reason is, because the author of that petition knew it is a TACTIC that works.  I WILL be sure to point that out to Layne

He tried this crap last year to get commercial fishing banned in the fuge.

What he and a few others want is very little competition (or just boats spooking the easy fish) to further pad his bottom line..

If he was a good fisherman, competition wouldn't be a problem...

If that petition got 2000 sigs, I'd bet 1500 of them are from blue state women that own multiple cats.

Cavanaugh68

ANUMBER1 said:

spangler said:

Not to mention, the way that petition is written is horribly leading.  Why the pollution speak?  Why not just say, fishing is poor, we wanna limit people taking them? 

The reason is, because the author of that petition knew it is a TACTIC that works.  I WILL be sure to point that out to Layne

He tried this crap last year to get commercial fishing banned in the fuge.

What he and a few others want is very little competition (or just boats spooking the easy fish) to further pad his bottom line..

If he was a good fisherman, competition wouldn't be a problem...

If that petition got 2000 sigs, I'd bet 1500 of them are from blue state women that own multiple cats.

Crap? No, this was told to the public 10 years ago that it WOULD be closed. Then you pulled this "crap" with legal semantics to get it extended. Every single person said they knew it was shutting down, so for the commercial industry to say they were not amply notified, that is crap. Show me another National Park or Wildlife Refuge in the United States that allows commercial harvest? Yellowstone harvest elk? Glacier Trout? Nope! Those are BRF, Blue Ribbon Fisheries which mean EPIC!!! Look up what a BRF is and the power it has.

You are a hypocrite. You "pad" your wallet with fighting the closure, fighting this extension as well. Because you know if they close possession of trout then you are not keeping them here either. Says the guy keeping up to 500 pounds of black drum a day or up to 150 seatrout a day.

As far as me benefiting from this.  Well once again you know nothing what so ever of my charter business. From April through October I am mostly fishing Edgewater, NSB, Ponce Inlet and the Port Canaveral area. So 85% of my trips are not done on the refuge waters and when I do fish the "Mosquito Lagoon" it is the north end in Canaveral National Seashore waters. Which if you read the original post and petition would not include those waters in CR.

Also leave it up to you to say "blue".  What a joke. You clearly know nothing of me, my colleagues or my friends. Definitely not a clue what so ever on my political views.

Cavanaugh68

Reel Teal said:

No one said you were bad for catching and releasing fish. More like you're bad for trying to mandate it on everyone for no other reason than you want it to be that way.

And it's funny how guys who never keep fish think someone who does is an enemy. I dont care what you do on your boat as long as you arent doing anything illegal. Anecdotal evidence isn't the best evidence, and heck you cant even see into the water down there, so how would you even know there arent fish. Maybe they've gotten smarter after being caught 30 times a year

We are not mandating anything. Is this not like a vote or an election? It is either one way or other. Either the refuge is possession or it is not. No in between. We are merely asking them to look at the amount of people who want this to happen. Also I keep seeing where  people are saying it will "pad" my wallet or "my bottom line". When you look at the 2000 signatures most likely only 20 or 40 of those who signed it are legally allowed to conduct charters with the MINWR. So that says that 1960 of those signatures are recreational anglers. Does that not stand out here? So they are the ones befitting.

Again recs fish here more than guides by a major factor. I would be supporting this whether I was a guide or not, even if I lived in Alaska. Because it is a REFUGE. It is a tiny tiny tiny area in central Florida that is in question. e are not asking for the entire state to go CR.

Cavanaugh68

spangler said:

Cavanaugh68 said:

spangler said:

fwiw, I don't think making minwr a sanctuary makes sense either.  That, was a joke too.  It's not good habitat.  A sanctuary needs to be somewhere that makes sense.  minwr does not.

Fix the habitat.  THAT, will fix your 'problems'.

I keep asking you this and you avoid answering. With the fish in decline what do we do? Keep killing them or stop it for a while and see what happens?

I've asked you a few questions as well.  All unanswered.  But sure, I will CONTINUE to answer any questions you might have that will benefit others reading this.

Trying unsubstantiated experiments, just to see what happens, is a complete waste of time for something like this and at this scale.  Especially, when there is NO science backing the idea of this petition.  There are already catch limits in place, for redfish and trout, that are working just fine everywhere else in the state. 

The fish in so called 'decline' will keep being repopulated by the surrounding stocks (redfish and trout are abundant).  So, nothing to worry about there.  However, those new fish, will just continue to avoid the waters around minwr, like the plague.  Just like they are doing now.  Even if you stopped ALL fishing for a decade, nothing will change.  That habitat will continue to degrade and become more and more.... uninhabitable. 

If I lived there, and my livelihood depended on the fisheries, I'd be asking, "How can we get this grass growing?"  Figure out how to get that done!  Devote your energy THERE!  THAT would be useful.  But, I guess, that doesn't do anything about your competition does it?  But go ahead, run around trying to put the fire out with a squirt gun.

So, let's revisit.  You are a guide, strongly advocating a regulation, that doesn't make sense, nor has an argument been made as to why it would make sense, BUT, presumably, would benefit you.  Keep in mind, all while taking away access from the general public.  Doing nothing to help the situation. 

I really hope people make it through this thread, before looking at that first post and willy nilly signing that petition! 

Where do you live, not exactly but what city? Because I am thinking you do not understand how redfish reproduce here on the Mosquito Lagoon. I am curious on how many times a year you fish the exact waters of the Mosquito Lagoon? It is not the same way they breed in other parts of the state. Not even close.  Our breeders are gone. Left here a few years ago. There are a few left but slowly leaving. Slots are being in decline too. Small ones are not reaching breeder size here due to harvested or leaving the Mosquito Lagoon.

So what do you mean by the fish on the MINWR will be re-populated by surrounding stocks?

Cavanaugh68

spangler said:

Cavanaugh68 said:

spangler said:

fwiw, I don't think making minwr a sanctuary makes sense either.  That, was a joke too.  It's not good habitat.  A sanctuary needs to be somewhere that makes sense.  minwr does not.

Fix the habitat.  THAT, will fix your 'problems'.

I keep asking you this and you avoid answering. With the fish in decline what do we do? Keep killing them or stop it for a while and see what happens?

I've asked you a few questions as well.  All unanswered.  But sure, I will CONTINUE to answer any questions you might have that will benefit others reading this.

Trying unsubstantiated experiments, just to see what happens, is a complete waste of time for something like this and at this scale.  Especially, when there is NO science backing the idea of this petition.  There are already catch limits in place, for redfish and trout, that are working just fine everywhere else in the state. 

The fish in so called 'decline' will keep being repopulated by the surrounding stocks (redfish and trout are abundant).  So, nothing to worry about there.  However, those new fish, will just continue to avoid the waters around minwr, like the plague.  Just like they are doing now.  Even if you stopped ALL fishing for a decade, nothing will change.  That habitat will continue to degrade and become more and more.... uninhabitable. 

If I lived there, and my livelihood depended on the fisheries, I'd be asking, "How can we get this grass growing?"  Figure out how to get that done!  Devote your energy THERE!  THAT would be useful.  But, I guess, that doesn't do anything about your competition does it?  But go ahead, run around trying to put the fire out with a squirt gun.

So, let's revisit.  You are a guide, strongly advocating a regulation, that doesn't make sense, nor has an argument been made as to why it would make sense, BUT, presumably, would benefit you.  Keep in mind, all while taking away access from the general public.  Doing nothing to help the situation. 

I really hope people make it through this thread, before looking at that first post and willy nilly signing that petition! 

These fish are sort of land locked. So if you keep harvesting what is left and the breeders that were here have headed to Ponce, then there will none left eventually.

http://www.floridasportsman.com/2006/02/01/redfish_fishing_florida_mosquito_lagoon/

Have you ever read this?

ANUMBER1

Cavanaugh68 said:

ANUMBER1 said:

spangler said:

Not to mention, the way that petition is written is horribly leading.  Why the pollution speak?  Why not just say, fishing is poor, we wanna limit people taking them? 

The reason is, because the author of that petition knew it is a TACTIC that works.  I WILL be sure to point that out to Layne

He tried this crap last year to get commercial fishing banned in the fuge.

What he and a few others want is very little competition (or just boats spooking the easy fish) to further pad his bottom line..

If he was a good fisherman, competition wouldn't be a problem...

If that petition got 2000 sigs, I'd bet 1500 of them are from blue state women that own multiple cats.

Crap? No, this was told to the public 10 years ago that it WOULD be closed. Then you pulled this "crap" with legal semantics to get it extended. Every single person said they knew it was shutting down, so for the commercial industry to say they were not amply notified, that is crap. Show me another National Park or Wildlife Refuge in the United States that allows commercial harvest? 

Chassahowitzka for one, I'm sure there are others.

kellercl

IMHO, catch and release defeats the purpose.  I fish to eat some fresh fish.  I have always wondered if fisherman are really the reason why stocks are declining;, versus population, pollution and destruction of vegetation.  Maybe they should charge for access and use the money for a breeding program?  

CountryBumpkin

Cavanaugh68 said:

These fish are sort of land locked. So if you keep harvesting what is left and the breeders that were here have headed to Ponce, then there will none left eventually.

So the "land locked" breeders must of learned something from the walking catfish & strolled on up to Ponce leaving the helpless young ones behind to fend for themselves.

Like I said YJCMTSU......

Please continue as I'm sure you are convincing lots of people with your knowledge of the MINWR and how to best manage it.

And you are mistaken when you say we know nothing of your friends and colleagues......we know they would never kill a poor "sea kitten". LMAO