How to keep Hunters Honest if Deer bag limits are implimented?

wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 34 Greenhorn
In a few weeks the FWC should be getting their proposal out for a buck and doe bag limit.

One of the problems is what kind of system do hunters want to keep us honest (within our bag limits). This is an issue that all hunters should think about before commenting on the forthcoming proposals.

Some options are  tags, harvest log, or a combinations of log and report, or can we just rely on the honor system?

If tags or a harvest log is used should the hunter be able to print them; if so how do you keep some from abusing the system?
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Replies

  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,672 Admiral
    Why should we implement any system, there isn't one in place for turkeys.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • GRIZZLGRIZZL Posts: 726 Officer
    Most places that I hunt have tag on license and require a callin report and paperwork generated to record the deer specs. The paper trail HAS to be kept with the deer in the freezer until consumed. LEO's pretty much KNOW who is WHO and will be looking at those people, rely in hunter tips  and/or random check. Of course if there is a check station..they take the tag and give a report to the hunter. If you have a tag separated from the license when checked by a warden (except at checkin) it's disallowed/taken.

    The Honor system sucks because poachers and allot of hunters( loose term) are not honorable.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,667 Admiral
    this is a joke right?
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,558 Captain
    wayvis said:
    In a few weeks the FWC should be getting their proposal out for a buck and doe bag limit.
    What do you base that assertion on?

    We already have plenty of threads out there discussing tag and report and bag limits. Before we rehash all of that again, I think we need some proof as to what really is and isn’t on the FWC’s agenda. Otherwise we’ll be getting worked up about nothing. 
  • GRIZZLGRIZZL Posts: 726 Officer
    this is a joke right?
    Just saying how other states do it. Facts. So IF it were approved, there are plenty of examples on how to implement it.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,372 Officer
    wayvis said:
    In a few weeks the FWC should be getting their proposal out for a buck and doe bag limit.
    What do you base that assertion on?

    We already have plenty of threads out there discussing tag and report and bag limits. Before we rehash all of that again, I think we need some proof as to what really is and isn’t on the FWC’s agenda. Otherwise we’ll be getting worked up about nothing. 
    This comment is based on the normal rule making cycle that FWC goes through each year.  Public suggestions as well as staff, TAG teams, internal staff standing groups make decisions on what to include in package, expose package, open public comments on the package, make adjustments, commission meeting in draft form, make adjustments based on commissioner feedback, publish in register, come back for final at next meeting for final approval by commissioners, publish final rule in register.  

    Can get more complicated if someone gets attorneys involved. 

    Staff should have draft language for hunting rule changes out sometime in August based upon the normal process.  Their has been much discussion on putting some type of annual limit on deer harvest.  In the coming weeks we will see if they will finally look to make a go of it.  Would not be surprised either way.  The agency has seemed reluctant to take on hot topics and want to get back to a more calm place.  

    Personally I like tags and would fully support them for turkeys also.  This would put a crimp and buy online way of life.  With the ability for someone to install an app and it queue up a harvest report until the person gets back in cell range is the more modern way of doing it.  
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,667 Admiral
    How about managing the resource .... first and foremost!
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,558 Captain
    edited August 4 #9
    There’s a big difference between “I wonder if they will” vs “head’s up, it will be here in a few weeks, whay ya think about it?” Personally I haven’t been expecting it for a couple more seasons at least. 

    If the OP or someone else is in the know, it needs to be proved up before we get worked up about it. 

    If a policy maker is testing the water before making an announcment, probably better rephrase the question...

    No taxation without representation, and no bag limit without a strictly enforced electronic tag and report. The honor system is worthless and only benefits the dishonorable. A paper log is the honor system with an extra step. That’s my opinion both as a hunter and as a criminal prosecutor that works hard to help the FWC make their cases. I won’t support a bag limit that is only enforceable against the hunter who’s willing to tell on himself. 

  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 34 Greenhorn
    wayvis said:
    In a few weeks the FWC should be getting their proposal out for a buck and doe bag limit.
    What do you base that assertion on?

    We already have plenty of threads out there discussing tag and report and bag limits. Before we rehash all of that again, I think we need some proof as to what really is and isn’t on the FWC’s agenda. Otherwise we’ll be getting worked up about nothing. 
    Not trying to get people worked up over nothing. I talked to the FWC the other day and was told the proposal should be out in a few weeks. This is just a heads up, because a few seem to think that enough info has not been put out on this matter. The problem with putting out info before a proposal has been made is you tend to get people worked up over numbers or things that may or may not be in the official release.

  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 34 Greenhorn
    How about managing the resource .... first and foremost!

    How do you manage the resource without bag limits and a way to keep people honest?
  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 34 Greenhorn
    Any system that you use, some are going to abuse it. So keep it simple. Harvest log with no call in works for me.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,667 Admiral
    wayvis said:
    How about managing the resource .... first and foremost!

    How do you manage the resource without bag limits and a way to keep people honest?
    What was wrong before all this nonsense started? Ooh ya, people had open access, freedom to hunt whenever, freedom to kill what was needed to fill a freezer. Can't have that now can we?
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,558 Captain
    wayvis said:
    wayvis said:
    In a few weeks the FWC should be getting their proposal out for a buck and doe bag limit.
    What do you base that assertion on?

    We already have plenty of threads out there discussing tag and report and bag limits. Before we rehash all of that again, I think we need some proof as to what really is and isn’t on the FWC’s agenda. Otherwise we’ll be getting worked up about nothing. 
    Not trying to get people worked up over nothing. I talked to the FWC the other day and was told the proposal should be out in a few weeks. This is just a heads up, because a few seem to think that enough info has not been put out on this matter. The problem with putting out info before a proposal has been made is you tend to get people worked up over numbers or things that may or may not be in the official release.

    I'm going to wait and see what if anything comes out before I comment further. 
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,558 Captain
    edited August 4 #15
    wayvis said:
    Any system that you use, some are going to abuse it. So keep it simple. Harvest log with no call in works for me.
    I will add this much, as I just saw this comment. The people who abuse the system, even if a small minority, already are killing far more deer than the honest hunters are. Meaningful management of the take won't happen until you effectively manage the few who abuse the system, because those few are having a bigger impact on the resource than the majority are. A determined poacher will kill more in a week than a normal successful hunter will in an entire season, and a causal poacher who just kills one a week will still end up with 20 or more deer before the fall-winter is over. We know what panthers are doing to the herd in south Florida. Poachers in north Florida amount to the same thing, except that they aren't wiping out the resource as much as controlling it for themselves.

    All the honor system does is give the same deer you walk to the dishonorable ones to take with impunity. It already happens now with gobblers. 

    There's never been a better time to be a poacher in Florida than right now. No one should favor a honor-system bag limit more than the poacher. The poacher knows that the honor system controls the competition from honest hunters and gives more deer to himself. 

    No bag limit without a strictly enforced tag and report. 
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,667 Admiral
    I dont want anyone knowing where I hunt, when I hunt, how I hunt..what's next reporting when you take a dump, what toilet paper you used.
    In a state where we can't get access to lands that we own, we are supposed to support anything like this? How about give us access first then we can consider tags n such..until then pound sand because its only being used as a tool to write more tickets.

    Anyone remember the proposed processing part of the law, that was a joke!
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,724 Captain
    edited August 4 #17
    wayvis said:
    How about managing the resource .... first and foremost!

    How do you manage the resource without bag limits and a way to keep people honest?
    What was wrong before all this nonsense started? Ooh ya, people had open access, freedom to hunt whenever, freedom to kill what was needed to fill a freezer. Can't have that now can we?
    You said you want management of the resource. Then you say let everyone take as many as they want whenever and wherever. 

    You seem to think that there is no link between the two. Until you realize that there is, you will conti be beating your head against the wall.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,667 Admiral
    Where did I say any of that?
  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 34 Greenhorn
    wayvis said:
    Any system that you use, some are going to abuse it. So keep it simple. Harvest log with no call in works for me.
    I will add this much, as I just saw this comment. The people who abuse the system, even if a small minority, already are killing far more deer than the honest hunters are. Meaningful management of the take won't happen until you effectively manage the few who abuse the system, because those few are having a bigger impact on the resource than the majority are. A determined poacher will kill more in a week than a normal successful hunter will in an entire season, and a causal poacher who just kills one a week will still end up with 20 or more deer before the fall-winter is over. We know what panthers are doing to the herd in south Florida. Poachers in north Florida amount to the same thing, except that they aren't wiping out the resource as much as controlling it for themselves.

    All the honor system does is give the same deer you walk to the dishonorable ones to take with impunity. It already happens now with gobblers. 

    There's never been a better time to be a poacher in Florida than right now. No one should favor a honor-system bag limit more than the poacher. The poacher knows that the honor system controls the competition from honest hunters and gives more deer to himself. 

    No bag limit without a strictly enforced tag and report. 
    I guess we just disagree on the poaching and tag and report. I know poaching is going on across the state. We've all ways had poaching and all ways will. No kind of tag or report system you come up with will stop a true poacher. The only way to handle them is with the help of local hunters and law enforcement.
    I know most of the hunters I talk with and hunt around are decent law abiding folks. I would assume that is true for most hunters across the state.

    Any way I don't have a big problem with tag and report. I just don't understand why we would want to inconvenience a lot of hunters in an attempt at stopping a few poachers. 



  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 34 Greenhorn
    wayvis said:
    How about managing the resource .... first and foremost!

    How do you manage the resource without bag limits and a way to keep people honest?
    What was wrong before all this nonsense started? Ooh ya, people had open access, freedom to hunt whenever, freedom to kill what was needed to fill a freezer. Can't have that now can we?

    According to a lot of hunters the way it use to be was no management or very little. The way it use to be was no doe harvest on private or public land. I guess if we went back to that then we wouldn't need much management. Just shoot every buck you see, and complain about only seeing does!
  • GRIZZLGRIZZL Posts: 726 Officer
    wayvis said:
     I know poaching is going on across the state. We've all ways had poaching and all ways will. No kind of tag or report system you come up with will stop a true poacher.
    It will help control poaching. The poachers are known. If they are caught with deer (any Big Game) meat in a freezer or intransit and no tag or registry of where and how that animal was taken, the state *could* take ALL assets associated with the poaching activity- Guns, Vehicles and possible residence (not sure of that). You HAVE to make the COST and RISK so HIGH it won't be worth it. Make an example of one of em....

    But you first have to have a game accounting system across the state that can standup in court. Smart don't people rob banks because the risk/reward is imbalanced.  Right now..you have to be caught in the act poaching. That has got to change
  • wayviswayvis FloridaPosts: 34 Greenhorn
    GRIZZL said:
    wayvis said:
     I know poaching is going on across the state. We've all ways had poaching and all ways will. No kind of tag or report system you come up with will stop a true poacher.
    It will help control poaching. The poachers are known. If they are caught with deer (any Big Game) meat in a freezer or intransit and no tag or registry of where and how that animal was taken, the state *could* take ALL assets associated with the poaching activity- Guns, Vehicles and possible residence (not sure of that). You HAVE to make the COST and RISK so HIGH it won't be worth it. Make an example of one of em....

    But you first have to have a game accounting system across the state that can standup in court. Smart don't people rob banks because the risk/reward is imbalanced.  Right now..you have to be caught in the act poaching. That has got to change
    I agree that a system is needed to help keep some hunters from exceeding limits, just not a report system. A harvest log that you fill out when you harvest a deer would keep most hunters on the up and up. 
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,672 Admiral
    wayvis said:
    Any system that you use, some are going to abuse it. So keep it simple. Harvest log with no call in works for me.
    I will add this much, as I just saw this comment. The people who abuse the system, even if a small minority, already are killing far more deer than the honest hunters are. Meaningful management of the take won't happen until you effectively manage the few who abuse the system, because those few are having a bigger impact on the resource than the majority are. A determined poacher will kill more in a week than a normal successful hunter will in an entire season, and a causal poacher who just kills one a week will still end up with 20 or more deer before the fall-winter is over. We know what panthers are doing to the herd in south Florida. Poachers in north Florida amount to the same thing, except that they aren't wiping out the resource as much as controlling it for themselves.

    All the honor system does is give the same deer you walk to the dishonorable ones to take with impunity. It already happens now with gobblers. 

    There's never been a better time to be a poacher in Florida than right now. No one should favor a honor-system bag limit more than the poacher. The poacher knows that the honor system controls the competition from honest hunters and gives more deer to himself. 

    No bag limit without a strictly enforced tag and report. 
    Ga seemed to do ok with the honor system for years..
    Just my .02 if a strict tag and report is installed then there needs to be a phone in system, I know quite a few folks in the hammock that consider internet the devil.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,558 Captain
    edited August 5 #24
    wayvis said: I just don't understand why we would want to inconvenience a lot of hunters in an attempt at stopping a few poachers. 

    Most hunters wouldn’t be inconvenienced, because most never kill a deer in a season. Of the minority that kills a deer, most of them only kill one or two. The few minutes it would take to tag and report once or twice a year is negligible. 

    About 12% of Florida hunters kill 66% of all the legally harvested bucks. Let that number sink in. It doesn’t matter if 88% of hunters will abide by the honor system. Those 88% are having a negligible impact on the deer herd and are irrelevant for management purposes. That 12% that dominate 66% of the legal buck take are the ones you have to hope will give up the extra bucks they kill a year on nothing but the honor system.

    Beyond the legal take, there are localities where the illegal take likely exceeds the legal take 2:1. For every deer killed legally, as many as two or more may be killed illegally. I work with the FWC to police one WMA up this way where their internal poaching estimates absolutely hit 2:1. 

    What it comes down to is that an extremely small percentage of legal hunters and poachers dominate the majority of the whitetail deer take. Bag limits will have no practical effect to increase the deer population or redistribute the take unless they successfully police a specific 15% of the hunting/poaching population. 
  • Florida BullfrogFlorida Bullfrog Posts: 1,558 Captain
    edited August 5 #25

    ANUMBER1 said:
    wayvis said:
    Any system that you use, some are going to abuse it. So keep it simple. Harvest log with no call in works for me.
    I will add this much, as I just saw this comment. The people who abuse the system, even if a small minority, already are killing far more deer than the honest hunters are. Meaningful management of the take won't happen until you effectively manage the few who abuse the system, because those few are having a bigger impact on the resource than the majority are. A determined poacher will kill more in a week than a normal successful hunter will in an entire season, and a causal poacher who just kills one a week will still end up with 20 or more deer before the fall-winter is over. We know what panthers are doing to the herd in south Florida. Poachers in north Florida amount to the same thing, except that they aren't wiping out the resource as much as controlling it for themselves.

    All the honor system does is give the same deer you walk to the dishonorable ones to take with impunity. It already happens now with gobblers. 

    There's never been a better time to be a poacher in Florida than right now. No one should favor a honor-system bag limit more than the poacher. The poacher knows that the honor system controls the competition from honest hunters and gives more deer to himself. 

    No bag limit without a strictly enforced tag and report. 
    Ga seemed to do ok with the honor system for years..
    Just my .02 if a strict tag and report is installed then there needs to be a phone in system, I know quite a few folks in the hammock that consider internet the devil.
    I agree a phone system is the way to go. I still haven't had burned a depredation tag yet. When I do I'll see how well their current phone-in system works. 

    As far as GA, their default bag limit is 12 deer a year per hunter, with 10 of those being does that can be harvested in a long rifle season (for most of the state). Few people would have to go outside the law to fill their freezers than then some under those rules. I also don't think GA hunters are competing for land and deer like we are nor do we likely  have the overall deer numbers that they have. 
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 2,868 Moderator
    wayvis said:
    How about managing the resource .... first and foremost!

    How do you manage the resource without bag limits and a way to keep people honest?
    What was wrong before all this nonsense started? Ooh ya, people had open access, freedom to hunt whenever, freedom to kill what was needed to fill a freezer. Can't have that now can we?
    You said you want management of the resource. Then you say let everyone take as many as they want whenever and wherever. 

    You seem to think that there is no link between the two. Until you realize that there is, you will conti be beating your head against the wall.
    Wayvis, meet benellishtr. 

    You are 100% correct. He said to "manage the resource" and then his very next statement was to "open up access" and THEN we'll see about managing the resource. Benelli, I'm with you on increasing access but it will not happen until resource management is in place to handle the increase in access. It would be irresponsible to do it the other way around and you'd be the first one crying BOHICA that they let a flood of people in to over-harvest game.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,724 Captain
    I doubt he'd cry BOHIICA about that. He's talked about doing that same thing himself on a few properties when they were being sold to the state.

    You can't manage it using rules that allow it to be abused..... even if those who would do that are few. Maybe it scares him that the ability to do that legally could go away.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,667 Admiral
    rest assured when lykes is sold it will be strip hunted.....
    PS James you dont know squat with managing land or an internet site
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,672 Admiral

    ANUMBER1 said:
    wayvis said:
    Any system that you use, some are going to abuse it. So keep it simple. Harvest log with no call in works for me.
    I will add this much, as I just saw this comment. The people who abuse the system, even if a small minority, already are killing far more deer than the honest hunters are. Meaningful management of the take won't happen until you effectively manage the few who abuse the system, because those few are having a bigger impact on the resource than the majority are. A determined poacher will kill more in a week than a normal successful hunter will in an entire season, and a causal poacher who just kills one a week will still end up with 20 or more deer before the fall-winter is over. We know what panthers are doing to the herd in south Florida. Poachers in north Florida amount to the same thing, except that they aren't wiping out the resource as much as controlling it for themselves.

    All the honor system does is give the same deer you walk to the dishonorable ones to take with impunity. It already happens now with gobblers. 

    There's never been a better time to be a poacher in Florida than right now. No one should favor a honor-system bag limit more than the poacher. The poacher knows that the honor system controls the competition from honest hunters and gives more deer to himself. 

    No bag limit without a strictly enforced tag and report. 
    Ga seemed to do ok with the honor system for years..
    Just my .02 if a strict tag and report is installed then there needs to be a phone in system, I know quite a few folks in the hammock that consider internet the devil.
    I agree a phone system is the way to go. I still haven't had burned a depredation tag yet. When I do I'll see how well their current phone-in system works. 

    As far as GA, their default bag limit is 12 deer a year per hunter, with 10 of those being does that can be harvested in a long rifle season (for most of the state). Few people would have to go outside the law to fill their freezers than then some under those rules. I also don't think GA hunters are competing for land and deer like we are nor do we likely  have the overall deer numbers that they have. 
    back in the late 70's and early 80's when I hunted up in Ga the limit was 3 deer, 2 bucks and 1 doe,\
    Tag was a paper tag with a tear off end to mail back at the end of the season..

    As i said the honor system seemed to work as everyone I hunted with at that point in time would tag their deer.. 

    Maybe these days are different and folks aren't so honest anymore.

    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,724 Captain
    Chances of either of us living to see an ownership change of any significance are slim to none.

    I'm sure you'd be proud to take part in that if you could though.
  • GRIZZLGRIZZL Posts: 726 Officer
    Its funny..Virginia is OVER RUN with deer yet they have a 2 buck 1 doe license with one more from the National Forest. THAT seems too low...This unlimited harvest (4 deer in a freezer at any one time) *I* just don't see justified. At least the Quota Permits are "limited harvests" but someplace like Bull Creek and other Romp and Stomps have to be getting slammed
    ANUMBER1 said:

    ANUMBER1 said:
    wayvis said:
    Any system that you use, some are going to abuse it. So keep it simple. Harvest log with no call in works for me.
    I will add this much, as I just saw this comment. The people who abuse the system, even if a small minority, already are killing far more deer than the honest hunters are. Meaningful management of the take won't happen until you effectively manage the few who abuse the system, because those few are having a bigger impact on the resource than the majority are. A determined poacher will kill more in a week than a normal successful hunter will in an entire season, and a causal poacher who just kills one a week will still end up with 20 or more deer before the fall-winter is over. We know what panthers are doing to the herd in south Florida. Poachers in north Florida amount to the same thing, except that they aren't wiping out the resource as much as controlling it for themselves.

    All the honor system does is give the same deer you walk to the dishonorable ones to take with impunity. It already happens now with gobblers. 

    There's never been a better time to be a poacher in Florida than right now. No one should favor a honor-system bag limit more than the poacher. The poacher knows that the honor system controls the competition from honest hunters and gives more deer to himself. 

    No bag limit without a strictly enforced tag and report. 
    Ga seemed to do ok with the honor system for years..
    Just my .02 if a strict tag and report is installed then there needs to be a phone in system, I know quite a few folks in the hammock that consider internet the devil.
    I agree a phone system is the way to go. I still haven't had burned a depredation tag yet. When I do I'll see how well their current phone-in system works. 

    As far as GA, their default bag limit is 12 deer a year per hunter, with 10 of those being does that can be harvested in a long rifle season (for most of the state). Few people would have to go outside the law to fill their freezers than then some under those rules. I also don't think GA hunters are competing for land and deer like we are nor do we likely  have the overall deer numbers that they have. 
    back in the late 70's and early 80's when I hunted up in Ga the limit was 3 deer, 2 bucks and 1 doe,\
    Tag was a paper tag with a tear off end to mail back at the end of the season..

    As i said the honor system seemed to work as everyone I hunted with at that point in time would tag their deer.. 

    Maybe these days are different and folks aren't so honest anymore.

    Same deal in Virginia...2 bucks 1 doe with an additional National Forest Buck. They went to a Phone callin system. The "sold" additional doe tags if you wanted. They opened access to Bow Only to many State Parks to "qualified Archery" hunters. Florida should open some areas to Archery Only if they have problems with the Orange Army..
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