1300+ FCFS Alligator tags opened at 10am 7/10

bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
How did everyone do on grabbing extra tags that were added late in the game for county tags?  I ended up getting 3 sets and getting a friend 7 extra sets?  Kind of feel bad for those who applied in the first go round and were unsuccessful and then could not get in for the same added tags.  FWC got 69 in stead of the 272 they could have in several cases.
The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
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Replies

  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    still 200 permits for north fl counties out there
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 872 Officer
    How come I wasn't notified of this?  lol

    Seriously though, I didn't get an email or anything.  Had no idea.  Are they fcfs?
  • smellybucksmellybuck Posts: 48 Greenhorn
    I got me some
  • bswivbswiv Posts: 7,069 Admiral
    I'm sitting at my desk on the St. Johns County side of the St. Johns river looking across 3 1/2 miles of it to the Clay County side and if I get up and walk out in the back yard a ways I can see up the river to southern Duval County......and......if I walk a bit further out onto the dock I can see the top of the Seminole Power Plant about 25 miles down the river......and yet......I did not chase down one of those permits. 

    Not that there are not a few gators out there, and not that one or two might not be big enough to get excited about. Just that unless you are after 6-7 foot ones, which are in truth the best eating and often have the nicest hides so there is a very good reason to go catch a couple, the time and effort will be better spent chasing the fall flounder run and catching shrimp.

    Which is why those permits are left.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    spangler said:
    How come I wasn't notified of this?  lol

    Seriously though, I didn't get an email or anything.  Had no idea.  Are they fcfs?
    I know the sent out a mass email to some and put it on their social media and web site.  Email said you can get up to 5 but that was changed to 10 and only updated on web and social media. Email came out on 7/5 for a quick FCFS on 7/10 at 10:00 am.  Much of the need for quick came from the time it takes to print, organize and mail out the tags.  I believe they would of still had plenty of time if they just added one day for people with none to get one before someone else could get 10.  That would maximize opportunity and revenue.  
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    bswiv said:
    I'm sitting at my desk on the St. Johns County side of the St. Johns river looking across 3 1/2 miles of it to the Clay County side and if I get up and walk out in the back yard a ways I can see up the river to southern Duval County......and......if I walk a bit further out onto the dock I can see the top of the Seminole Power Plant about 25 miles down the river......and yet......I did not chase down one of those permits. 

    Not that there are not a few gators out there, and not that one or two might not be big enough to get excited about. Just that unless you are after 6-7 foot ones, which are in truth the best eating and often have the nicest hides so there is a very good reason to go catch a couple, the time and effort will be better spent chasing the fall flounder run and catching shrimp.

    Which is why those permits are left.
    There are many people out there that just want to give it a try.  I would not pay the full price for these tags but as extras they are $69 for two.  With a $35 investment in each tag you can take some of those 6-7 for personal use and come out ahead on price per pound on meat and still have fun doing it.  

    Just not the margin in it for those looking to make money on the commercial side.  Side note one year when there was a need for smaller horn back hides I helped a friend by an extra 100 permits.  CC maxed out.  That year I think it was I helped him put 37 in the boat in one night.  That turned out to be a lot of work but glad I was not the skinner.  One of the few nights I wished to get stopped by LEO and asked to see a permit.  They shipped the tags in a big box that we carried on the lake.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 1,006 Officer
    The irony of all of this is that the state sells off gator eggs at a price and this feeds gator farms which depress the value of wild skins. Which in turn make the $272 and even $69 tags they sell worthless. 

    I have resd that the state makes makes a ton of money from the gator tag sales. I’m not sure if they make more from the egg sales than the tag sales. But if they don’t they effectively shot themselves in the foot with the egg debacle. Which also turned into a major poaching ring and loss of state revenue through mismanagement. 

    We live in the irony state not the “sunshine” state.  Triple entendre intended. 
  • Rich MRich M Posts: 1,126 Officer
    spangler said:
    How come I wasn't notified of this?  lol

    Seriously though, I didn't get an email or anything.  Had no idea.  Are they fcfs?
    It is almost a full time job trying to follow these jokers (FWC) and what they are doing.

    You'll also notice that no-one said anything until the day after.  It was even on the news last night.  LOL!
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,054 Admiral
    Someone needs to be the champion for all these quota hunt dates etc and start having everyone drop applications so the heat gets hotter on how ridiculous the process is..
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    There has been a steady pool of people willing to put up with the system/process.  As long as you have a deeper pool of prospects than opportunity you can afford to not worry about those that quit.  I have been trying to address some of the issues I feel are in the current process.  There are staff that have been hard set in their ways.  I was hoping a little bit of more outreach was going to start with some leadership change.  You can look back over the years at commission meeting and note that I have been chipping at the rock.  

    On the fees you will on one hand hear FWC state that they do not want to raise the fees for the alligator eggs because they are not in the money making business.  They just are looking to cover the program costs.  Well the public water adult harvest does not cost near the revenue that they charge to operate it.  They have no problem charging the masses a large fee but let a hand full of people make millions off of our public water resource.  FWC gets $5 an egg off of our public waters where public bids in the sunshine continue to go for $40-50+ dollars an egg. It will take legislators to change it and everyone should ask their representatives to adjust the fees that are over 30 years old and if FWC does not want to champion it the legislators should use the money for more public boat ramps or parks.  A few extra million each year could make a big difference.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,054 Admiral
    BOHICA but they have us in their best interest right? Ha
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    BOHICA but they have us in their best interest right? Ha
    Will support them when I can and disagree when I see different.  No different than an average marriage, where there are disagreements and times of bliss.  You will miss out on much bliss if you can not get past the disagreements.  
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • watergatorwatergator Fort Pierce Posts: 104 Deckhand
    I wrote an email regarding the price of tags and asking for the permits to be either changed to recreational or have a recreational option added since very few hunters are hunting commercially with the price of tags and the value of gators. My email and the response from FWC are below. It doesnt

    Alligator farming has grown in Florida to be the third most valuable aquaculture species produced in the state. Farmed alligators typically produce superior hides and a consistent supply of meat, which has reduced the commercial demand for wild alligators. Also, because of the drawing format and harvest restrictions, very few, hunters are harvesting enough alligators to make a living out of selling wild alligators.

    I believe that it is time to remove the commercial designation of alligator permits to allow hunters to pursue them as recreational hunters. This would align alligator hunting regulations with those of other native species, reduce the overall cost of entry into the hunts, and make it more available to general residents. Hunting guides, likely the only hunters that make a significant profit from alligator hunting, would not be affected by the change to recreational as there will continue to be hunters willing to pay for their experience, expertise, and equipment. Even giving the option for hunters to select a recreational or commercial permit at the time of application would be a move in the right direction.

    *****************************************************************

    The licensing requirements for the take of alligators is governed by Chapter 379.3751 of the Florida Statutes. So any change to the status of alligator licenses would need to be passed by the Florida legislature and signed by the Governor. I suspect that the commercial alligator industry in Florida would lobby against such a change.
     
    In general, and to maximize efficiency, alligator farms try to move alligators through as quickly as possible. This means taking an alligator from hatchling to harvest in around 2 years. Harvested alligators are generally 3.5 to 4 feet in length, so most alligator hides from farmed alligators are small. Small alligator hides can be used for many types of leather goods, such as belts, purses, wallets, etc., but larger items, such as luggage, golf bags, and furniture, require larger alligator hides, and those hides mostly come from the harvest of wild alligators. 
     
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 872 Officer
    Oh man!  That does not make me happy.  They aren't even beating around the bush about it.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 872 Officer
    edited July 13 #16
    Actually tho, I think that may be misleading. I'm just shooting from the hip here but..

    Why should the farms protest recreational harvest?  They can still get their commercial permits, fine by me.

    Where did you send that email?  I don't see a way to contact 'Alligator Management Program' on that link
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    A few years ago they were looking hard at making it recreational and going through the process to put it into their legislative process.  Big problem though was 2 things.  1st they wanted to keep charging you the same fees as they do now but lower the cost to non-residents for the license but increase the cost of the agent license for non-residents.  2nd was they wanted to keep treating it as a commercial license and allow you to sell your gators.  Can remember sitting in an office in Tallahassee trying to explain the issues with that.  They were hell bent at the time at pushing it thru.  (If I remember correctly it even passed draft stage. )  I tried to explain that even if they had no problem with trappers selling recreational catch the FDA does have a problem with it. I am sure many recreational fishermen would love to sell fish to the fish houses. To be honest the public is not ensured a gator that has been taken care of well.  People harvest them and never ice them down.  If a commercial fisherman throws a net and dumps the fish out they can not throw it again without having to pick up the fish and ice them down. 

    FWC associates the program as recreational.  I will say that at the beginning I was opposed to the change just due to how fast they were trying to push it through and it would not give the meat industry much time to change their business models to account for that harvest not being made available to the food supply chain.   On the flip side I told them if they did turn it recreational then I truly expect to never have to pay another fee again as I have one of those very old lifetime licenses that exempt me from new recreational fees.  Who knows the thought of that may be why they pulled it.  

    The legislative people have to set the fees but FWC puts these changes in their legislative package.  If they do not, it has little chance of moving anywhere.

    If you want to call Dwayne who is the Alligator Program coordinator his office number is 352-630-7728.  

    BTW It is not taking them 2 years to grow the gators.  The do believe the good ones are doing it in a year.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,948 Captain
    .
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • Rich MRich M Posts: 1,126 Officer
    The problem is the legislative process.  That's what is wrong withe the red snapper/fisheries stuff and what's wrong with the alligators - the flipping government.  Why even have FWC if they can't do anything cause of some FL Statutes?

    Think about it - why do some bureaucrats who have absolutely no knowledge of some things (biology, wildlife management, etc.) get to analyze stuff to see if they can profit from it in some way or form.  It is hunting gators or catching snapper or whatever - stuff that can easily be regulated and managed based on the size of the "herd".  All our agency needs is some authority to manage the resources.

    Another thing is why do folks have to sell their catch?  I say that $$$ should be removed from it completely - you want to go gator hunting, go and have fun.  If you really have to sell things and make $$$ as opposed to doing it for fun, become a true/real commercial entity with a business license, insurance, and workman's comp.  
  • watergatorwatergator Fort Pierce Posts: 104 Deckhand
    spangler said:
    Actually tho, I think that may be misleading. I'm just shooting from the hip here but..

    Why should the farms protest recreational harvest?  They can still get their commercial permits, fine by me.

    Where did you send that email?  I don't see a way to contact 'Alligator Management Program' on that link
    Go to myfwc.com and select the contact us page. I just selected hunting as my topic and put my email there. 
  • lookinlookin Posts: 1,270 Officer
    I must of missed the email on this as well.  No luck in Ph I or Ph II.  Oh well, least I got a buddy who got a couple tags that I can maybe go a time or two this year.

    I agree with most of what is being said.....make it recreational.  The cost, the unsuccessful apps (preference points?!), the fact that out-of-staters have just as much opportunity to obtain tags, the guides and their clients gobbling them up, etc.  It's gettin old.

    The $ will be hard for the State to give up....give us something in the short-term.....preference points.
    God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 872 Officer
    Does anyone know of another species, in Florida, of which only commercial take is allowed?  I know they close fisheries to rec harvest from time to time.  But are any other species explicitly for commercial take only?




  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 872 Officer
    oh and hey, bgeorge, you have any idea what the annual egg harvest numbers are?  approximately
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 Posts: 4,172 Captain
    If you want to farm gators you should have to raise them from your own eggs ad not be allowed to collect them from public land
    living life as i like
  • bswivbswiv Posts: 7,069 Admiral
    If you want to farm gators you should have to raise them from your own eggs ad not be allowed to collect them from public land
    When it is considered that over the last 30 years the gator population has fully recovered while at the same time the farms have been collecting eggs, paying into the FWC coffers for alligator management, paying landowners for both access to their property to collect eggs and for the eggs themselves, raising alligators on farms that provide jobs and income to the state.......well......again what is the problem with the process?

    When it is understood that in many areas the leading cause of juvenile alligator death is other alligators, and in light of the skinny and slow growing condition of alligators in more than a few places around the state what has to be understood is that carrying capacity is more of a limiting factor than some number of eggs being harvested. 

    As currently practiced and regulated it is will thought out, functional and serves multiple interests well. Maybe best not to go screwing with something like that.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    First of all the majority of the eggs that are collected from the wild in FL go to GA and LA to be raised.  They are not producing jobs or industry in FL.  The eggs off of our public waters are going to a very few and up to last year the biggest recipient of those eggs is a non resident.  Many of the so called farms never have 1 alligator on them all year.  They are just $250 pieces of paper that allow them to tie up the resources from those who actually want to farm in Florida.  They compensate the FWC $5 an egg where if it were out to bid this year it was $40+ each, 50+ in recent years.  The way FWC has it set up they are picking winners and losers in the industry by giving a few a major economic indifference to the others who are trying to scratch a living.  In addition to that they are allowing 100% collection of nest the collectors can find on a large portion of the permitted areas.  The most that can happen in private land is 50% of the good nests they can find.  

    Then there is the greater economic benefit to all stakeholders.  The public water may have little long term gain for large gators but the eco tour operators are finding it hard to show their clients baby gators and a legal gator to the public water hunt is 18 inch and up.  The people are ecstatic when they ride up and watch a clutch and more so than watching a big one crash into the water as they approach.  Those clutches that will ultimately be eaten up in a few years will have produced many a job and revenue into the people of Florida. Then there is the fact that they are food to many other species, fish, birds, gators etc...  Just think how nuts some people went over allowing harvest of palmetto berries and how it takes away from the bears food.  

    Overall one must look at the overall biggest picture of the resource that is in PUBLIC TRUST not just a very limited scope to a handful of people with the least benefit to FL.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    spangler said:
    oh and hey, bgeorge, you have any idea what the annual egg harvest numbers are?  approximately
    They will be ending this years public water egg collection soon with some huge numbers.  Looks like they will be have a record year despite loosing 6000+ to flooding in the ST Johns areas.  This year it may be around 50,000 off of the public waters.  
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • bswivbswiv Posts: 7,069 Admiral
    bgeorge said:
    First of all the majority of the eggs that are collected from the wild in FL go to GA and LA to be raised.  They are not producing jobs or industry in FL.  The eggs off of our public waters are going to a very few and up to last year the biggest recipient of those eggs is a non resident.  Many of the so called farms never have 1 alligator on them all year.  They are just $250 pieces of paper that allow them to tie up the resources from those who actually want to farm in Florida.  They compensate the FWC $5 an egg where if it were out to bid this year it was $40+ each, 50+ in recent years.  The way FWC has it set up they are picking winners and losers in the industry by giving a few a major economic indifference to the others who are trying to scratch a living.  In addition to that they are allowing 100% collection of nest the collectors can find on a large portion of the permitted areas.  The most that can happen in private land is 50% of the good nests they can find.  

    Then there is the greater economic benefit to all stakeholders.  The public water may have little long term gain for large gators but the eco tour operators are finding it hard to show their clients baby gators and a legal gator to the public water hunt is 18 inch and up.  The people are ecstatic when they ride up and watch a clutch and more so than watching a big one crash into the water as they approach.  Those clutches that will ultimately be eaten up in a few years will have produced many a job and revenue into the people of Florida. Then there is the fact that they are food to many other species, fish, birds, gators etc...  Just think how nuts some people went over allowing harvest of palmetto berries and how it takes away from the bears food.  

    Overall one must look at the overall biggest picture of the resource that is in PUBLIC TRUST not just a very limited scope to a handful of people with the least benefit to FL.
    For the greatest true.......which does not change the ultimate judgment that the basic program has not hampered survival or even increases in gator numbers generally throughout the state. As is always the case some tweaking of a system in place after long years of operation would not be a bad thing.

    Would point out that having participated in egg collection there is significant investment needed both for collection and then handling/growing after the fact. This being so that there are a limited number of participants is not necessarily a indication of some nefariousness. Beyond that meeting the strictures placed on them by regulation to participate is another difficulty.

    And mind you......you know from back when we had a politics section that I am of a libertarian stripe and have little patience with the "picking and choosing". It's why I will not watch in any way professional sport who ALL get public subsidy.

    What the FWC is doing is not in that same vein......at least not in the same intentional way.

    When all is said and done what though you've got to remember that my post was a attempt to educate gottheitch22 in a very general way that to use the public asset in a multiplicity of ways to serve all the public.

    In many ways the situation with alligators is similar to that with commercial fishing in that the public, and recreational users in particular, seem to forgot, or ignore, or chose to discount the fact that those harvesting commercially are in reality providing access to those who can not fish or hunt gators. Exactly the same as when you or I takes someone out for hire to catch something.......we are paid to provide them access.


  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,948 Captain
    Why don't they just have a controled open season on them like other game, it's not like they are are endangered, probably more of them than deer for crying out loud. I can see how eliminating the tag system would hurt the FWC though at $272 a tag X 1300 that's a nice chunk of change.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,443 Officer
    bswiv said:
    bgeorge said:
    First of all the majority of the eggs that are collected from the wild in FL go to GA and LA to be raised.  They are not producing jobs or industry in FL.  The eggs off of our public waters are going to a very few and up to last year the biggest recipient of those eggs is a non resident.  Many of the so called farms never have 1 alligator on them all year.  They are just $250 pieces of paper that allow them to tie up the resources from those who actually want to farm in Florida.  They compensate the FWC $5 an egg where if it were out to bid this year it was $40+ each, 50+ in recent years.  The way FWC has it set up they are picking winners and losers in the industry by giving a few a major economic indifference to the others who are trying to scratch a living.  In addition to that they are allowing 100% collection of nest the collectors can find on a large portion of the permitted areas.  The most that can happen in private land is 50% of the good nests they can find.  

    Then there is the greater economic benefit to all stakeholders.  The public water may have little long term gain for large gators but the eco tour operators are finding it hard to show their clients baby gators and a legal gator to the public water hunt is 18 inch and up.  The people are ecstatic when they ride up and watch a clutch and more so than watching a big one crash into the water as they approach.  Those clutches that will ultimately be eaten up in a few years will have produced many a job and revenue into the people of Florida. Then there is the fact that they are food to many other species, fish, birds, gators etc...  Just think how nuts some people went over allowing harvest of palmetto berries and how it takes away from the bears food.  

    Overall one must look at the overall biggest picture of the resource that is in PUBLIC TRUST not just a very limited scope to a handful of people with the least benefit to FL.
    For the greatest true.......which does not change the ultimate judgment that the basic program has not hampered survival or even increases in gator numbers generally throughout the state. As is always the case some tweaking of a system in place after long years of operation would not be a bad thing.

    Would point out that having participated in egg collection there is significant investment needed both for collection and then handling/growing after the fact. This being so that there are a limited number of participants is not necessarily a indication of some nefariousness. Beyond that meeting the strictures placed on them by regulation to participate is another difficulty.

    And mind you......you know from back when we had a politics section that I am of a libertarian stripe and have little patience with the "picking and choosing". It's why I will not watch in any way professional sport who ALL get public subsidy.

    What the FWC is doing is not in that same vein......at least not in the same intentional way.

    When all is said and done what though you've got to remember that my post was a attempt to educate gottheitch22 in a very general way that to use the public asset in a multiplicity of ways to serve all the public.

    In many ways the situation with alligators is similar to that with commercial fishing in that the public, and recreational users in particular, seem to forgot, or ignore, or chose to discount the fact that those harvesting commercially are in reality providing access to those who can not fish or hunt gators. Exactly the same as when you or I takes someone out for hire to catch something.......we are paid to provide them access.


    They pick winners and loosers when some absolute legit farmers raising gators in FL have to compete in bid process to get eggs, then pay to collect them for their farm when others get them from our public waters ready for the incubator for a ridiculously low price.  Many of the farms that tie up spots in the system raise 0 gators. When you get them at such a low price it allows you to outbid the other farms while price averaging your inventory.  They have even outbid others and then collected not near as many as they probably could have just to keep other farms from getting inventory.  Big money in play and they do not like anyone else swimming in their pool.  And trust me they think it is their pool.  
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • Tanman34Tanman34 Posts: 59 Greenhorn
    That was bs the way they did the tags. I didn't get a email, seen it on the news late the nite before. Tried to find info on there website. Didn't know it was first come first serve. Then after the fact many people complaining they couldn't even get on the website because it was locked up because guys were sitting there reapplying once they were in getting 3 extra permits for themselves and 7 for their buddy....BS 
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